Instigator / Pro
4
1551
rating
9
debates
66.67%
won
Topic
#1667
Abortion should be legal
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Winner
4
1
After 5 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
SkepticalOne
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two months
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
1
1487
rating
7
debates
35.71%
won
Description
PGA (Peter) and I will take on the abortion debate. Neither of us will be arguing an absolute position and understand there must be room for nuance. Peter allows abortion when the mother's life is threatened by pregnancy. I accept Roe V Wade has laid out reasonable limits on abortion. I anticipate our main point of contention will be, not in the fringe, but, where abortion is most common. Ie. Most abortions occur at or before 13 weeks of pregnancy. I will argue this should be legal, and Peter will argue against it. Each debater will have their own burden to meet.
There will be no new arguments in the final round - only rebuttal and closing.
Round 1
Pro
#1
I’d like to thank my opponent for his participation in this debate. While we may not agree on abortion, I think we can agree being able to openly talk about controversial issues can raise awareness and allow individuals to make informed decisions. Thanks, Peter.
Definitions
An abortion is a medical procedure to end a pregnancy. It uses medicine or surgery to remove the embryo or fetus and placenta from the uterus. The procedure is done by a licensed health care professional. [1]
Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, regardless of race, sex, nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, or any other status. [2]
Women’s health
When comparing countries with the most restrictive laws (banned or allowed only when a woman’s life is endangered) with those with the least restrictive abortion laws, we find that there is virtually no difference in abortion frequency - 37 and 34 per 1,000 women, respectively. [3] So what effect does more restrictions on abortion yield? According to Guttmacher institute, “in 14 developing countries where unsafe abortion is prevalent, 40% of women who have an abortion develop complications that require medical attention”. [3] Additionally, Guttmacher finds that “Of all abortions, an estimated 55% are safe (i.e., done using a recommended method and by an appropriately trained provider); 31% are less safe (meet either method or provider criterion); and 14% are least safe (meet neither criterion). The more restrictive the legal setting, the higher the proportion of abortions that are least safe—ranging from less than 1% in the least-restrictive countries to 31% in the most-restrictive countries. [3] Furthermore, legal abortion encourages women to seek abortion earlier making the process safer. Before Roe V Wade (1970) 25% of abortions were done after 13 weeks, and afterwards (1980) 10% were done after 13 weeks. Additionally, more than 50% of abortions (1980) were done at 8 weeks or earlier. [4]
In summary, prohibition and restrictive laws do not appear to reduce the frequency of abortion overall, but they do decrease women’s health in a society by forcing women to reluctantly seek necessary medical treatment (at later stages when more complications can occur) without the oversight provided by government regulation. Undeniably, legal abortion avoids complications and deaths that would occur with heavy restriction and prohibition. In other words: Outlawing abortion endangers women while doing nothing to solve the perceived problem.
Human rights
“A pregnancy to a woman is perhaps one of the most determinative aspects of her life. It disrupts her body. It disrupts her education. It disrupts her employment. And it often disrupts her entire family life.” Sarah Weddington – Wade Attorney
Freedom, justice, and peace rests on fundamental human rights such as ‘freedom from slavery, freedom from torture, equality, and the right to life. Disallowing abortion violates every single one of these. If a woman does not consent to pregnancy and has no choice but to give birth, then she has become a slave to pregnancy. A woman being forced to give birth against her will is being subjected to torture. A woman being denied the same reproductive freedom as a man is receiving unequal treatment. This is a challenge to ‘right to life’ overall as liberty and bodily autonomy are being denied. Every person has the right to control their own body. When this is denied, human rights are being attacked. Abortion is necessary for women to reach their full potential, and severe restrictions stand in the way.
I expect we will see the S.L.E.D argument from my opponent. For those that are not familiar, S.LE.D. stands for size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency. Essentially, the argument suggests that a being of smaller size, lesser development, different environment (location), or being dependent on another is no grounds for “discriminating” against the unborn and its “rights”. For the sake of argument, if I were to accept my opponent’s view that personhood begins at conception (which I adamantly do not), we would still disagree because there is no ‘right to use the body of another’. I cannot involve myself with anyone else’s body without their consent, and neither can any other person regardless of their size, level of development, environment, or degree of dependency. Essentially, the SLED argument argues for the unborn to have special rights no person has.
I will keep this round short and sweet and send this debate over to Peter. I look forward to seeing his arguments.
Con
#2
As Con/Contender, I would sincerely like to thank Skepticalone for initiating this debate, which allows me to defend what I consider a most critical moral issue, the unborn's fate.
Since the word character count is minimal, I will dispense with other preliminaries.
Before considering the legal aspect, please understand what we are debating in the matter and realize that not all laws are just.
1) What is the unborn?
Would Pro consider that the scientific evidence confirms it is a human being? In our last debate, he acknowledged this to be the case.
"Pro [me in this case] argues human life begins at conception to which I would agree." [1]
Scientifically, it is confirmed in many ways, such as by a human being's DNA structure, which differs from other species chromosomally (46 in most cases, except for defects). [2]
"Thus, each human cell contains a total of 46 chromosomes—22 pairs common to both males and females, plus two so-called sex chromosomes (X and Y in males, two Xs in females)." [3]
Verifiably, when two human beings produce offspring, the offspring is another human being.
So, unless Pro wishes to dispute the unborn is a human being, contrary to his previously stated position, we move to the next point.
2) Does it matter what we do with the unborn?
The stated question involves whether human beings have intrinsic value. Please, reader, pay attention to this point. Does Pro believe in equal treatment for all human beings? He does, [4] (R2) yet he makes an exception (personhood) that is hard to justify. Once some human beings are classed or grouped as more or less valuable than others, morality and inequality become an issue, as with the unborn. For many, it is recognized as a human being but classed as a non-person/not yet a person. The same classification of human beings as non-persons or sub-persons has led to oppression, devaluation, discrimination, and dehumanization by many. [5]
3) Personhood?
Can Pro confirm scientifically when human personhood begins? If not, the unborn should be granted the status of a person because of what human beings are, by nature - personal beings.
By not recognizing the unborn's right to personhood gives those who enact laws all kinds of liberties, the ability to do what they want with this 'non-person,' not yet person, or sub-person.
That question of personhood has become central in the abortion debate since 1973, Roe v. Wade, that caused a paradigm shift in our view of personhood. [6]
4) Establishing Unjust Societies - The Example of Nazi Germany
Facinghistory.org document steps the Nazis took in alienating particular groups from society (Jews, gypsies, gays, the deformed and handicapped, political and religious opposition, etc.). Human atrocities and the ill-treatment of human beings throughout the world, including abortion, follow some of the same steps. Those steps include discrimination, demonization, alienation, and dehumanization. In some cases, the final solution is the death of these groups through legislation.
In January 1933, Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany. In his first radio address, he gave his vision and promises for a classless society without class warfare [7]. Based on other ideas of his, this included purifying the racial/genetic structure of his nation. [8]
He asks a trial period of four years for the German people to judge his efforts to renew their economic prosperity, of which Hitler blamed the Jews as being partly responsible for their "economic and social problems." [9]
In mid-1929, there were approximately 20 million Germans out of work.
By 1933, there were about 6 million.
In late 1934, fudged statistical data further convinced the public of his success, supposedly reducing that unemployed number by half, which gained widespread support for the Nazi Party. [10] He also employed a large number of Germans in rebuilding the military complex, a "violation of the Treaty of Versailles." [10] [11 - p.333]
Another step in the progression of power was to eliminate political opposition. [12]
In March 1933, the Nazis passed a law, the "Malicious Practices Act," [12] which made it illegal to voice opposition to their government or leaders.
Three days later, Hitler passed the "Enabling Act." [13] This act gave Hitler the ability to label the opposition enemies of the state.
The same day, the "first concentration camp" was opened in Germany to house those who threatened the security of the state. [12]
By June 1933, Hitler banned the Social Democratic Party, leaving the Nazis as the sole party. [12]
By the end of the summer of 1933, there were over 100,000 "Communists, Social Democrats, union officials, and other 'radicals' imprisoned." [12]
To enact their policies, the Nazi Party employed intimidation by paramilitary groups, German youth, the SA (storm troopers) and SS.
In April 1933, the Nazis created the Gestapo.
Hitler understood propaganda, and the Nazi propaganda machine swayed public opinion and people's thoughts with negative images of the Jew. [14] The State uses biased materials and emotional appeal. Quickly, Hitler established the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda. [15] This agency overreached into all areas of public address, including the German press, the foreign media, newspapers, law, radio, film, theatre, music, literature, visual arts/posters/slogans, tourism, education, etc. [16]
Hitler, through education, indoctrinated the youth movement which played an essential part in turning the country to his way of thinking. The Hitler Youth, the Student League and the Pupils' League, the National Socialist Women's League, were examples. Hitler also used professional groups such as teachers, lawyers and doctors in this effort. Along with positive images and slogans to sway the population were also negative ones. Fear and terror was used as intimidation by the 'brownshirts' or Nazi youth, instigated against Jews and others. Incorporate this philosophy of intimidation with the antisemite feelings prevailing in Europe at the time set the course. [17] [18]
Prewar, Hitler and the Nazi Party enacted over 400 decrees and regulations of antisemitic legislation discriminating against Jews. [19]
1933-34, included "limited Jewish participation in German society." [19]
1935, the "Nuremberg Laws" [20]
1937-38, laws of segregation. [19]
These laws limited Jewish rights and treated them as non-citizens as of July 14, 1933. [21]
From January 31, 1933, to August 31, 1939, according to one historian, there were "1,448 laws, policies, and decrees designed to remove Jews from the country's political, economic, and cultural life.
In 1933 alone, 316 anti-Jewish measures were taken in Germany..." [22]
By labelling the Jews as racial enemies of the state (not conforming to the "Aryan race") with inferior genetic makeup, The Nazis started segregating them from the rest of society.
"If Germany did not act decisively against the Jews both at home and abroad, Hitler claimed, hordes of subhuman,[23] [24] uncivilized Slavs and Asiatics that the Jews could mobilize would sweep away the "Aryan" German race." [25]
They believed, through social Darwinism, "consistent with the law of nature" [25] and other philosophies, that it was their "obligation to subdue and even exterminate inferior" [25] races.
Thus began the eugenics program and extermination of the Jew and other "inferior" races. Some believe the "Final Solution" began in 1941 and lasted until 1945. [26]
5) The Dehumanizing of the Unborn
Planned Parenthood is somewhat instrumental in shaping today's views on abortion. Its founder, Margret Sanger, regularly used discriminatory and demonizing language against the unborn, people of colour, the poor, and weaker human beings. She used derogatory language (just like the Nazis) to change opinions on women's issues. She wanted "conservation of the race through birth control" and a "plan to stem the tide of production of the unfit and try to turn it in the right direction" [27] through eugenics, again, a view similar to Nazi Germany in weeding out the "unfit" as they saw them. She also espoused social Darwinian. Some human beings were inferior, for she wrote, "The lower down in the scale of human development we go the less sexual control we find. It is said that the aboriginal Australian, the lowest known species of the human family, just a step higher than the chimpanzee in brain development,..." [28]
A copyrighted article comparing Nazi concentration camps to Planned Parenthood clinics lists similarities in its dehumanization practices and language used of the unborn. [29]
Building on Planned Parenthood, Roe v Wade has perhaps shaped opinion on abortion like no other law.
6) Inequality and Injustice
Law is concerned with equal justice/equality. Lack of those qualities has been the scourge of human history.
a) Basic Rights
The right to life is the most basic right all human beings should have or else some/any can be treated inhumanely.
b) Devaluing life
Devaluating human life denies basic human dignity and rights under the laws to some humans.
"intentional killing of some human beings would not be incompatible with dignity, for those human beings would have no dignity. Such views arbitrarily designate some members of the human family as unworthy of moral respect despite the fact that they are beings of the same kind as ourselves." [30]
c) Duty and Obligation
When engaging in sex, and an unborn is created, there should be a responsibility, an obligation, to protect it.
d) Bodily Rights
Our bodily rights should not harm the rights of others unless others are threatening to harm us.
e) Function v Substance
Which determines worth?
Round 2
Pro
#3
Morality and Law
If my opponent hasn’t already, I suspect he will present a moral argument against abortion. However, we should keep in mind the resolution – “Abortion should be legal”. This is an important point, because law and morality are not interchangeable terms. Law is the “system of rules which a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties”. [5] On the other hand, morality is particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society”. [6] We might tend to think laws come from moral convictions when we consider those against murder, rape, or theft, but there are also laws which run contrary to typical notions of morality such as those which legalized slavery [7] or advocated racial segregation [8]. The point here is that a moral argument for or against something is an insufficient reason to endorse legislation because morality is subjective. On the other hand, my arguments above make an objective practical and ideological case relevant to legislation for abortion in a society which values human health and rights.
That being said, I have no intention of conceding abortion as an immoral act. Every person has a moral right to control their own body. Every person has a moral right to defend their body (even if something or someone else might be harmed in that defense). Additionally, disallowing abortion has a negative impact on societal health and human rights. On balance, allowing abortion is morally preferable to abolition of it.
"..a great deal turns for women on whether abortion is or is not available.
If abortion rights are denied, then a constraint is imposed on women's freedom to act in a way that is of great importance to them, both for its own sake and for the sake of their achievement of equality;
and if the constraint is imposed on the ground that the foetus has a right to life from the moment of conception, then it is imposed on a ground that neither reason nor the rest of morality requires women to accept, or even to give any weight at all." - Judith Jarvis Thomson
Defense
1) Con has made claims on behalf of science and myself which are in error. Scientific consensus does not endorse Con’s scientific claims (it was concluded that biology alone is not able to determine the point at which personhood is established” [9]), and I do not accept personhood occurs at conception. It seems Con equates human and person, and doing so has created misapprehensions with his understanding of scientists and myself. In short, attaching human as an adjective says nothing of the legal status of what it modifies. For instance, cancer can be human cancer, but it doesn’t make sense to claim murder when someone dies from cancer ...because cancer is not a person. In the same way, attaching human to life does not equate that life to a person.
2), 3), & 6):
In the interest of conciseness (and conservation of time and characters), I will combine these categories as they rely on similar reasoning and do not overcome arguments laid out in round 1 for the same reason.
A concept of personhood which fails to account for (at a minimum) the capacity for consciousness is at best incomplete and at worst diminishing. Regardless, no matter how my opponent might personally define personhood he will need to apply rights consistently rather than argue special rights for a particular group at the expense of another's. The personhood Con advances sets up an impossible scenario where the basic rights of one group (women) are in conflict with another proposed group (the unborn). His apparent solution is to revoke rights from women so that new rights (applicable only to the unborn) may be extended. Given that rights are meant to be a shield, removing them so that an entire group can be effectively subjugated by dispensations of a new group is an attack on the rights of everyone. After all, if rights can be revoked for any individual or group for any reason whatsoever, then they lose their power.
My opponent builds his case on a simplistic understanding of what it means to be a human being (a person). His concern for the unborn sans consideration for the consent of the woman in whose body it resides is problematic. How can we talk of intrinsic value, equality, justice, basic rights, etc., where stripping rights from women and applying special rights to another group is implicitly being advocated? I submit - we cannot. Consent and bodily autonomy go hand-in-hand, and it is not possible to have one without the other. If a woman does not consent to using her biology for pregnancy then no one has the right to say otherwise.
There is one other point Peter raises I would like to address: duty and obligation. It seems Con believes sex creates a new person. While it is true conception is a possibility of sex, it is far from true that this is a given. In fact, one informal study found that it takes, on average, 78 sessions of sex before pregnancy occurs [10] - and this was among people specifically trying to get pregnant (so the number can be higher among those not trying). In spite of what my opponent may think, sex, more often that not, does not "create an unborn" and has many subjective purposes beyond procreation including pleasure, intimacy, connection, stress reduction, etc. None of which necessitate a duty or obligation to anything beyond those who have given their consent to share their bodies. Additionally, consent is conditional. If a person consents to an activity, they do not consent to enduring any unwanted outcomes that might come from it. We do not consider an STI resulting from consensual sex to be untreatable. We understand a sexually transmitted disease can (if left untreated) cause unwanted changes to the individual. We certainly do not consider consent to an activity sufficient reason disallow treatment when something more than intended was shared. The medical treatment of abortion is no different.
One other point, sex is not always consensual. I can't imagine my opponent would seriously entertain a 'duty or obligation' someone else forced upon his biology - and neither should anyone else. Theft of someone's body is a tragic event and disregard of their rights on top of it is unconscionable.
4) & 5)
In Section 4, it seems my opponent is suggesting that abortion is wrong because the Nazis endorsed it. There are two problems with this notion. 1) A position or view is not refuted by the fact that the Nazis shared it (association fallacy [11]). 2) If it were, then my opponent should be just as concerned with his argument as I. He is correct that the Nazis endorsed abortion (for non-Aryan women). However, the Nazis were also against abortion for Aryan women [11 page 90, paragraph 3] and even restricted contraceptives ([12] page 85 – paragraph 3). The Nazis endorsed both sides of the abortion debate as it furthered their agenda of hate. Suffice to say, it is not as simple as having a *correct view* by avoiding positions the Nazis held. Ultimately, my opponent has advanced an argument which, by his own reasoning, works against him.
In section 5, Con continues with this faulty line of reasoning except, instead of Nazis, he points to Margaret Sanger. Again, a position is not refuted because it is shared by someone with whom we disagree on other views. The merits (or detriments) of legal abortion are important to this discussion and a demonized person or group who may have supported abortion are an irrelevant non-sequitur.
That being said, my opponent’s sources for these two sections (7-29) should carry no weight in regards to source points.
***On that, I turn the debate back over to Peter. Belated Merry Christmas, my friend, and happy New Year to you and yours.
Con
#4
Best wishes for this New Year!
Thank you for another chance to expose flaws in the Pro-choice position!
R1
Pros two main arguments center on the woman's health and human rights. Concerning the latter, Pro has given his opinion but no logically compelling or conclusive facts that abortion is right and should be legal. However, with his one statement, there is agreement.
"Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, regardless of race, sex, nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, or any other status."
On this statement alone, Pro undermines his entire position since abortion does not treat all human beings equally under the law. Where are the unborn's rights?
P1. All human beings should be treated equally under the law.
P2. The unborn (speaking of the human unborn) is a human being.
C. The unborn should be treated equally under the law.
Premise 1 Justice is dependent on equal treatment under the law.
In my R1, Hitler's Germany was given as an example of an unjust society. Various groups were not treated fairly under the law. There are countless other examples of nations with unfair laws, such as slavery in America or Apartheid in South Africa.
"Historically, every single attempt to divide humanity into those who have rights and those who are expendable has proven to be a colossal mistake. Why think abortion is any different?" [1]
"The principle of respect for every human being is found not just in theological sources but also in the principles of the Stoics, the Hippocratic Oath, the philosophical ethics of Immanuel Kant, and the U.N. Declaration on Human Rights." [2]
The Declaration of Independence declares,
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." [3]
1) Fundamentally first is the right to life. It is the most basic of all human rights. The absence of its defence leads to barbary and unlivable conditions for those less desirable. Without that right to life, there is no existence, hence no freedom or pursuit of happiness.
2) Unalienable rights - If one human being is not equal, morally speaking, to another human being, then human beings are not intrinsically valuable. Granting this, why not kill the woman and her unborn together? What does it matter what one human being does to another? If the rights of the innocent are not protected, then there is no justice.
Unequally treatment by the law can set a precedent. A vast number of undesirable or devalued human beings can be discriminated against and dehumanized to death. (I.e., Roe v. Wade is cited as justification for abortion because the unborn human being is not recognized as a person under the law).
"In Roe v. Wade, the Court said that a fetus is not a person but "potential life," and thus does not have constitutional rights of its own." [4]
Surely the law should protect all human beings from unjust killing or devaluation?
"[T]he standard pro-choice position...divide humanity into those who matter and those who matter a little or not at all." [5]
"If unborn human beings don't have rights, though, then the criterion for having rights must be something other than being human—it must be something that unborn humans don't have." [9]
That last quote shows the inconsistency with the U.N. declaration cited above and in R1.
Premise 2 is a biological and scientific fact. It is also philosophically and logically verifiable. Pro has admitted in the past that the unborn is a human being. Almost every embryological text will identify the unborn from conception as a human being. [5]
The Conclusion follows from the major and minor premises as sound. The unborn is a human being, and it should be treated equally under the law (for the law to be just) with the same rights as every other human being.
"If the future experiences of the unborn count for nothing, then they don't count for the born either, and we lose one of the strongest reasons for avoiding our own death, and regretting the deaths of others." [5]
"Belvedere reproduces the argument this way:
1) What makes killing someone wrong is that doing so deprives her of a future of value.
2) When a fetus is killed, it suffers the same kind of loss.
Thus,
3) Abortion is immoral just as killing an adult or a child is immoral." [6]
***
1) All human beings should be equally valuable (Intrinsic worth) under the law.
2) The unborn (speaking of the human unborn) is a human being.
3) The unborn should be an equally valuable human being under the law.
Premise 1, supported by the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights, declares all human beings have human rights. It is a statement of what should be, not necessarily what is the case. It is also logically coherent with justice.
Premise 2 is consistent with science. The life of a human being begins at conception. Its development does not stop at fertilization, or birth, or adolescence, but continues throughout its life. [7] (ch 1, p. 1)
The Conclusion then follows.
***
Woman's Health (and the Harm Done)
Health can be argued for the woman and the unborn. Remember what is aborted.
1. Compare abortion frequency stats before Roe v Wade with that after.
Number of Recorded abortions per year
1960 --> 292
1964 --> 823 (sexual revolution)
1973 --> 744,600 (Roe v Wade)
1981 --> 1,577,340 (highest number)
2011 --> 1,058,500 [8]
The abortion numbers escalated after Roe V Wade. It became a slaught of innocent human beings.
Robert Johnston Study (Estimating) Live Births and Abortions Reported
1926 --> (2,839,000) = (2)
1960 --> 4,257,850 = 292
1973 --> 3,136,965 = 744,610
1985 --> 3,760,561 = 1,588,550
2017 --> 3,853,472 = 427,111 [9]
Guttmacher Institute Reported/Estimated Abortions
1973 --> 744,600
1985 --> 1,588,600
2017 --> (850,200) [9]
Please look at the "Pregnancy-related mortality ratio per 100,000" chart since formating it is a problem. [10]
"CDC...confirmed that there were more than 3,400 pregnancy-related deaths over a five-year period in the United States." [11]
The estimated abortion deaths, same time period --> 3,156,876 - 5,335,590 [9]
Causes of pregnancy-related death in the United States percentages: 2011-2016
Hemorrhage - 11
Infection - 12.5
Amniotic fluid embolism - 5.6
Thrombotic pulmonary embolism - 9
Hypertensive disorders of pregnancy - 6.9
Anesthesia complications - 0.3
Cerebrovascular accident - 7.7
Cardiomyopathy - 11
Other cardiovascular condition - 15.7
Other noncardiovascular conditions - 13.9
The cause of death is unknown for 6.4% of all pregnancy-related deaths
2. What about the health and harm of the unborn? Abortion utterly neglects it. The harm to the unborn's health is irreparably, plus the prevention of these deaths is almost entirely possibly. Since Pro used an emotional appeal, consider the trial of the unborn that go "through lethal suction [12], dismemberment [13], crushing, or poisoning" [14]
The leading cause of death, in a Florida case study, was unwantedness/no reason.
The woman's physical health was threatened by the pregnancy .288% of the time.
The woman aborted for social or economic reasons 6.268% of the time.
92.330% No reason (elective) [15]
.288% for health reasons is a small number in comparison to the total aborted.
More human beings in the USA die from abortions each year than any other cause.
Heart disease is listed as the leading cause.
Deaths in 2017: 647,457 [16]
Compare that to abortion:
Estimate in 2017: 850,200 [9]
Pro believes it is okay for a woman to kill her unborn human offspring. As the father, would Pro feel it right for him to kill it too?
3. What about human equality concerns Pro? He focuses only on the woman's health; the adverse health effects to the unborn is fatal.
4. The woman's health is also adversely affected both physically (possible uterus or cervix damage, risk of hemorrhage, infection, and future pregnancy complications [12]), and psychologically in many cases. [17] Some controversial studies have linked abortion to breast cancer. [18]
R2
PRO:
"..., it seems my opponent is suggesting that abortion is wrong because the Nazis endorsed it."
No, that is not the point, and where was that said? The Nazis first discriminated against a class of people and then dehumanized and alienated them by their system of law. Pro-choice does the same.
PRO:
"1) A position or view is not refuted by the fact that the Nazis shared it (association fallacy [11])."
It is factual that the pro-choice movement employs language and indoctrination used by the Nazis to cheapen human life. Therefore it is not guilt by association.
William Brennan [19] charts nine "semantics of oppression" used by the Nazis describing the Jew also employed to the unwanted unborn, women, Native Americans, African American slaves. The derogatory name-calling list includes deficient human, non-human, animal, parasite [20], disease, inanimate objects, waste products, nonpersons.
Two debates, many devaluing terms
"Some collection of cells", "potentially non-viable embryo," "such a broad definition of human," [20] (R2 - Con), "an intruder," "abortion...a form of self-defence," "a group of cells," "it cannot be legitimately argued a fetus is a person (an individual human) while it exists as an extension of a person's body," "a potential person," (R2), "an extension of a woman’s body," "slavery," "Human rights apply to individual human beings and not parts of human beings. A fetus is part of a woman." [21]
Round 3
Pro
#5
Thank you, Peter. I hope your New Years was memorable!
It seems my opponent and I are talking passed one another. He would like for the reader to accept a fertilized egg is a person. For reasons already mentioned, I do not consider this to be reasonable. More importantly, I consider the discussion on personhood to be beside the point. As I’ve said previously, even if we were to grant personhood as my opponent understands it, there is no right to use the body of another. In an attempt to better illustrate this point, I will draw on thought experiments by Judith Jarvis-Thomson (JJT).
People seeds
Again, suppose it were like this: people-seeds drift about in the air like pollen, and if you open your windows, one may drift in and take root in your carpets or upholstery. You don't want children, so you fix up your windows with fine mesh screens, the very best you can buy. As can happen, however, and on very, very rare occasions does happen, one of the screens is defective; and a seed drifts in and takes root. [13]
In this, ‘people-seeds’ flying through the window represent conception and mesh screens represent contraception. While attempting to protect oneself from unwanted consequences, a person still finds they have people sprouting in their home. JJT asks would it be impermissible to rid a home of unwanted consequences from reasonable actions – especially given the precautions taken to avoid this outcome and the burdens they represent?
This scenario is analogous to the occurrence of a pregnancy in spite of contraceptives being employed. The pill has a failure rate of 7% - which means 7 out of every 100 women using only the pill will become pregnant every year. Condoms have an even higher rate of failure at 13% [14]. This is a very real concern - contraceptives are no guarantee against pregnancy. As mentioned previously, pregnancy disrupts body, education, employment, and family. Abortion allows a woman to maintain control of her life when countermeasures fail.
The Violinist
You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. [If he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but] in nine months he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you. [13]
In this scenario, a person’s biology has been co-opted against their will to bring someone else to full health. JJT argues the kidnapped individual has no obligation to the violinist. Yes, the world may be without a world-class violinist, but there is no duty to his life at the expense of another’s biology. There is no right to life that includes the use of another person’s body. For the same reason, abortion does not deny a fetus’ right to life – it merely deprives it of the non-consensual use of another’s body. This is analogous to conception as a result of rape.
Defense - R1 – Human rights
P1. All human beings should be treated equally under the law.
P2. The unborn (speaking of the human unborn) is a human being.
C. The unborn should be treated equally under the law.
**Premise 1 – I agree with the premise, although I take issue with some of Con’s defense of it. I will focus on those parts.
2) Unalienable rights: Unalienable means ‘irrevocable’ [15] not ‘equality’. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for equality and I, like Peter, accept this as a basic human right. However, I also hold that rights are not revocable and I’ve pointed out how the pro-life position seeks to revoke bodily autonomy from women so that a new group (the unborn) may use their body – whether they consent or not. That is the opposite of inalienable rights.
As for the rest – I have not challenged personhood as Con understands it and the perceived problems related to personhood are ultimately a distraction from challenges to the Pro-life position presented in this debate.
**Premise 2 – In round 2, I expounded how neither science, nor I, support Con’s understanding of personhood. This ultimately boils down to semantics. Attaching the adjective “human” to a noun like, say, “being” does not equate to personhood. I would be willing to entertain personhood beginning late in the pregnancy, but this does nothing to help my opponent since personhood of the unborn does not bestow a special right, but rather the same rights to every person.
**Conclusion – The conclusion does not follow from the premises - All human beings should be treated equally under the law and, whether the unborn is considered a person or not, there is no right to use the body of another without consent.
1) What makes killing someone wrong is that doing so deprives her of a future of value.
2) When a fetus is killed, it suffers the same kind of loss. Thus,
3) Abortion is immoral just as killing an adult or a child is immoral."
The first premise does not take into account instances where killing someone can be justified such as war or self-defense and the conclusion is faulty.
1) All human beings should be equally valuable (Intrinsic worth) under the law.
2) The unborn (speaking of the human unborn) is a human being.
3) The unborn should be an equally valuable human being under the law.
This syllogism suffers the same flaws as the first presented – so I won’t beat a dead horse. More importantly, the conclusion does not argue against abortion since there is no right to use the body of another. It is possible to respect the unborn as equally valuable AND acknowledge being equally valuable does not permit non-consensual use of another person's body. Being equally valuable means one has the same rights as every other person.
.
Defense –R1 - Women's Health
- I am willing to accept Con’s stats showing *legal* abortion increased after Roe V. Wade. This is not surprising or beneficial to my opponent’s case. As stated in round one, restrictive laws regarding abortion do not appear to reduce abortion overall. What they actually do is force more abortions to be unsafe. According to Guttmacher, “estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 1960s ranged from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. One analysis, extrapolating from data from North Carolina, concluded that an estimated 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions occurred in 1967.” [16] The causes of pregnancy related death percentages are not surprising either. The percentages are in the context of legal abortion, and as my opponent seems to suggest, these are relatively low numbers. The stats he has provided would be part of 55% of safe abortions (worldwide) I mentioned in round one since abortion is legal (and safe) in the US. On the other hand, 93% of women of reproductive age in Africa live in countries with restrictive abortion laws, and Africa is the world region with the highest abortion related deaths - 9% of maternal deaths in Africa are from unsafe abortion. [20] A clearer demonstration of the harm illegal abortion attributes to can be had by comparing abortion related deaths in Eastern Asia (where abortion is largely unrestricted) to Sub Saharan Africa (where abortion is much more restricted). Eastern Asia has abortion related deaths at .8% whereas SSA is at 9.6% (as of this report in 2014). More than 10 times as many women die in SSA over Eastern Asia due to abortion - making abortion illegal makes it less safe, not less prevalent. [21 Table 1]2
- Con ask about the “health and harm” of the unborn. He might as well ask about the health and harm of self-defense. Is it unfortunate harm can come from protecting oneself? Yes, but the alternative is much worse: no right to do so. Also, the various surgical abortion procedures described are not the norm and might be required when a woman’s life is in danger – which Con himself allows for. This is another inadvertent ‘own-goal’ [17] (Nazi argumentation from rnd 1) and as Con admits himself - an emotional appeal. However, the typical abortion (occurring before 13 weeks) utilizes medication (not surgery) and Con’s emotional appeal has limited applicability (if any) to the notion that a person has a right not to be used by another.
- Equality means everyone has the same rights. Con is not advocating for everyone to have the same rights, but rather for the unborn alone to have a special right. This is not equality.
- The adverse health effects described by my opponent are not an argument against abortion any more than they are an argument against rights overall. Defense of one’s person and personal sovereignty (for example) comes with the potential for harm to the self and others, but this certainly doesn’t mean it is unwarranted. Also, I dispute some of the effects listed. For instances, surgical procedures, which typically happens later in the pregnancy and/or out of necessity (the mother’s life being in danger) do not come into play in most abortions. Additionally, abortion does not affect women’s mental health more than not having an abortion. [18] [19].
Round 2
Con denies he is employing the association fallacy, but I stand by my evaluation and related refutation. Even while denying the fallacy, we see a recommitment to it.
Con
#6
Thank you, Pro!
***
Pro did not grasp the significance of my arguments. He said we talk past each other. Let me clear up some of the misunderstandings.
Summary
My main arguments (that Pro largely ignores) are 1) what is the unborn, and 2) why does it matter? Unless Pro can prove that it is less than a human being [1] or less than a person and that human beings have no intrinsic value, he does not address the heart of the debate regarding abortion laws. Pro agrees it is a human being. Does it matter then that we kill innocent human beings? Pro suggests that killing one does not matter when it is unborn. Why not?
Human Rights
How does killing innocent human beings relate to legalized abortion? Is such a law unjust? This rule of law is unfair if justice exists. Justice relies on applying the law equally and impartiality. Can Pro experientially live with this view of not all human beings as intrinsically valuable? Pro is a human being. If someone decided his human life did not matter, would he think otherwise?
To illustrate this injustice, I pointed out with Nazi Germany that laws that discriminate against or dehumanize innocent human beings are not just laws. I believe Pro and pro-choice advocates fall into the pattern of minimalizing unborn human life, opposing and downgrading the most vulnerable amongst us. Just like the Nazis with the Jews, such laws prey unjustly on the powerless. Both cultures used language and laws, along with the media, educational institutions and propagation machinery to change people's thinking negatively towards targeted human beings.
Indoctrination: "[T]he process of influencing a person with ideas and attitudes (AKA brainwashing)...[I]t is getting someone to accept a "doctrine" as their own ideology...The purpose of propaganda is to indoctrinate someone with a viewpoint,..., and the intentions behind the indoctrination matter in terms of judging the morality of the indoctrination." [2]
Propaganda can be misinformation that often denies, trivializes, or distorts the obvious, the facts. Pro-choice has done the same with abortion. They have desensitized people to what is killed and why it matters in its devaluation of the unborn. Pro did not prove the unborn a non-person, he just asserted it. He says, "Attaching the adjective "human" to a noun like, say, "being" does not equate to personhood." In our previous debate, Pro defines a person,
Pro, how does adding the adjective change what the unborn is? It either is a human being, or it is not. A living human being is also an actual human being, not a potential human being like Pro has previously suggested. "Potential" degrades its worth. It makes it less than it is, as was done in Roe V Wade, the erroneous case that changed abortion practice and thinking.
"(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother." p. 164-165 [4]
Human beings, by nature, are personal beings. Can Pro demonstrate otherwise?
Substance V Function
A substance exists in itself, not as a part of something else. The difference is that function is acquired, but the substance is what the being is throughout its existence. You are the same person throughout your life. If you lose a leg, that does not make you a non-person or a different person. You are still you. An arm or leg (functionality) is not needed to be a person.
Misrepresenting My Stated Syllogism
Please notice what Pro did with Premise 2. He exchanged the word 'human' with 'person' and then reconstructed the case around personhood. Pro dehumanized and trivialized the unborn human being to something less than it is with language. The syllogism clearly spoke of human beings, which the unborn is. There was no mention of personhood. If he wants to argue it is not a person he must prove it, which his earlier link did not establish.
The crux is that Pro believes it is permissible to kill innocent human beings at least until they are deemed by law to be persons. How is it ever just to do so? Pro bases that on the woman having autonomy over her body. Does that argument work? "Bodily autonomy is important, but there are obvious limits to that autonomy when someone else's body is also involved." [5]
Bodily Autonomy
Pro focuses on the woman's bodily rights argument. He is using a minimalist ethic. He applies the term 'harm' to the woman yet fails to include the fatal injury done to the unborn nor consider the potential damage to the woman's body from abortions.
Pro: "A woman being forced to give birth against her will is being subjected to torture." [7 - R1]
That statement is emotive language, an appeal to pity, that paints a one-sided picture. Two can play that game. What about the torture of the unborn? [6]
Pro: "Every person has the right to control their own body. When this is denied, human rights are being attacked." [7 - R2]
That right does not include the right to kill an innocent human being except in self-defence. Again, the right of the unborn human being is forgotten. What of its rights?
Judith Jarvis-Thomson
Her Violinist arguments have been refuted many times.
1. The unborn is not a part of the woman's body but a separate being. Pro mistakenly has argued for that very premise in a past debate.
Pro: "...the line of distinction I am interested in is when human becomes person, and that occurs at birth. Before birth, a fetus is an extension of a woman's body, and as such, any rights it has are an extension of the mother's rights. After birth, a new individual human being exists in the world with rights of their own." [3 - R3]
Not true. The 'fetus' is another body, another being.
Pro: "...an extension of a woman's body, and cannot be considered a person until they are well and truly an individual human being." [3 - R4]
This is a fallacy of Affirming the Consequent, Appeal to Common Belief, and Begging the Question. The conclusion does not follow.
Pro: "He would like for the reader to accept a fertilized egg is a person." [7- R3]
Another misrepresentation. Once an egg is fertilized, it is no longer an egg; it becomes a distinct, separate individual human being. And unless Pro can prove that personhood does not start at conception/fertilization, the unborn should be given the benefit of the doubt.
Nowhere have I argued a fertilized egg is a person, nowhere. When an egg is fertilized it becomes a human being and stops being an egg.
"...[U]pon fertilization, parts of human beings have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before;...a single, whole human being. During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced." [8] [9]
Pro argues,
"I consider the discussion on personhood to be beside the point." [7 - R3]
Yet, Pro continually comes back to and rests much of his argument upon personhood, as does the legal case of Roe V Wade.
2. Sovereign bodily rights should not be absolute.
Pro: "Abortion allows humans rights to women equal to that of men."
Again, what he states gives a woman more rights than a man, not equal rights. Generally speaking, a man can exercise his right to use his body in causing the death of another only in self-defence. Pro believes the woman should be completely sovereign over her body. No one has absolute rights to kill an innocent human being on their property who has no intent on wrongdoing. [5 - ibid]
3. Abortion is more than withdrawing life support from the unborn, it is intentionally killing her own offspring, violating its right to life, thus the violin analogy is not parallel.
"[I]t is the intentional and active killing of that child, often by dismemberment. This killing violates the child's right to life (the right not to be intentionally killed) and right to bodily integrity." [5 - ibid]
4. The woman knew the possible biological consequences of sex. In most cases, she willingly engaged in the sexual act.
Pros arguments about the failure of condoms/devices or the average number of times it takes of having sex before pregnancy results (78) are non-sequiturs and irrelevant since the woman knows that engaging in sex always leaves open the possibility of pregnancy unless she or her partner is sterile. Abortion speaks after the fact of pregnancy, not before.
5. The unborn have a right not to have their bodies "fatally violated through abortion."
The woman is treating the unborn as less than it is, a human being, thus unjustly. The most basic human right is the right to life. That is where rights begin, with a new life. That is a natural right, not a legal right. It is included in the Declaration of Independence, the UN Declaration on Human Rights, as well as being common sense where justice is concerned.
6. The woman has a maternal obligation to protect her offspring, not destroy it.
The woman has more obligation to her own than to a stranger.
7. The woman has a moral obligation to protect her vulnerable offspring.
Who would be allowed to treat an abandoned baby as the woman is treating her own biological offspring? Not only this but people recognize there is something wrong with abortion legally. It does not treat every human being with equal rights to life and dignity, or as Pro previously (R2) said well, "human rights applied discriminately is an attack on human dignity."
8. The uterus is where the unborn lives, its temporary home, its natural environment for the duration of pregnancy.
Abortion advocates want to deny it is rightful home. It is in its necessary environment.
Round 4
Pro
#7
Thank you so much, Con!
Round 3 Rebuttal and refutation
Human Rights
Con attempts to simplify the situation by equating my life with that of the unborn. However, I doubt Con would argue for my right to use the body of another person without their consent as he does for the unborn. In fact, I imagine he would understand my life being lost in a defensive act by my would-be subject if I were attempting to do such a thing. I ask that he be consistent.
In short, It is possible to accept the unborn is fully human, humans have inherent value, AND argue for abortion. Con is presenting a non-sequitur/ false dilemma suggesting otherwise. Thus far, he has made no attempt to account for how a fully human and inherently valuable woman can have her body used for purposes other than her own. A logically consistent view of rights accepts all people (even the unborn should we choose to view them as persons) have the same rights - and no one (not even the unborn) have a right to use the body of another without consent. It is not an absence of value that leads me to support equality, personal sovereignty, and human rights in general, but very much the opposite. Are we prepared to have our bodies forcibly used for another being? If not, we shouldn't expect others to do any different.
Judith Jarvis Thomson
Con has imported arguments from another debate in order to attack them rather than addressing arguments presented here. This tactic has been used elsewhere in this debate, but in response to this argument it was too blatant to disregard.
PGA explicitly states “sovereign bodily autonomy should not be absolute”. This is an extreme difference between our positions and a contradiction to his endorsement of inalienable rights. If human rights are conditional then they are undermined.
My interlocutor insinuates abortion is merely ‘killing an innocent on owned property’ and states “no one has the right to kill an innocent with no intent to do harm”. However, I very much see abortion as a form of self defense. An unwanted pregnancy can send a woman’s life in a direction from which she cannot recover. It will affect her body, her ability to earn a living, and ..her future. Additionally, Con himself allows abortion when a woman’s life is endangered – would this not be ‘killing an innocent with no intent to do harm’? The same applies to PGA's assertion that "The unborn have a right not to have their bodies "fatally violated through abortion". Ultimately, his words do not square with his own position. My opponent suffers more self-inflicted wounds.
In round 1 under the title "3) Personhood", Con argues the unborn should be granted the status of personhood because of what human beings are. Apparently, Con has changed his mind and now views equating human and person as a 'dehumanization and trivialization' of the unborn when I interpreted his arguments to match the subject of this debate which is the legality of abortion: one need be a person for human rights to be applicable. I’ve not seriously challenged his view of personhood though, so this is nothing more than a distraction.
Conclusion
Let us evaluate the debate thus far. I have presented arguments regarding women’s health, human rights, a moral argument, as well as thought experiments to provide (perhaps) a different perspective on pregnancy and abortion.
Women’s Health
In the women’s health argument I submitted ‘restricting abortion does nothing to reduce the frequency - it merely makes abortion less safe’. Con attempted to show (legal) abortion frequency increased after Roe V. Wade, but this had already been addressed in round 1 – rates of abortion in countries where it is highly restrictive are roughly the same as countries where it is not (37 of 1000;34 of 1000 respectively). This was further addressed in round 3 when the number of (illegal) abortions pre-Roe abortions were shown to be roughly the same or higher than post-Roe frequency of (legal) abortions.
Secondly, Con attempts to suggest abortion should be made illegal because of the “harm to the unborn”. I don’t consider this to be a particularly compelling argument since the measures Con proposes would do nothing to reduce harm to the unborn given the consistent frequency of abortion regardless of legality. That leaves us with only one solution which has a net reduction in harm: legalized abortion which reduces the harm to women. Ultimately, Con drops his defense on this front in round 3. Argument to Pro.
Human Rights
In this section, my argument was that disallowing abortion denies basic rights to women like equality. My opponent argues for human rights as well, namely, that the ‘unborn have the right to life’. I am not unsympathetic to his argument, but the situation is much more nuanced to stop there. First, there is the question of personhood, I mean, we don’t generally see folks arguing for the right to life for gametes. That is because they are sufficiently different from what is typically recognized as “human” that most everyone accepts gametes do not have rights even though they ARE human (“human beings” if you like). The line of demarcation my opponent presents for human rights seems more semantic than the substantive. What makes humans special isn’t our cells or our DNA (which is pretty much all there is at conception). However, rather than have a fruitless argument about personhood, I have chosen, for the sake of the argument, to imagine the unborn as people. Even doing this I find that my opponent’s view is incoherent. He argues for inalienable rights, and, at the same time, “bodily autonomy should not be absolute”. These two statements are contradictory. He argues for equality while arguing the unborn should have the right to use the body of another – a right everyone doesn’t have (nor should they). These notions are contradictory. The Pro side of the debate has been logically consistent. A person should have the same rights as every other person and abortion does not violate this notion. A man, woman, or fetus (even assuming personhood) cannot use the body of another without consent. On coherence alone, this argument should go to Pro.
Morality and Law
To be honest, I didn’t consider this argument to be very strong – it is a simplistic argument which pushes legal abortion as morally preferable to disallowing abortion because the latter causes more harm and less freedom to women. It is a very utilitarian outlook. Con did not directly address this argument. Later he suggested a woman has a moral obligation to “protect her vulnerable offspring”. Not to be overly pedantic, but to be an “offspring” one would need to spring-off! (ie. Be a separate and independent entity) Besides, he suggests harm to the fetus should be taken into account, but as stated above, Con did not provide an alternative which allowed for less harm to the fetus – only the same frequency of fetal harm combined with more harm for women. He later equated an abandoned baby to the unborn, but this analogy fails. The unborn draws it sustenance directly and exclusively from the body of another, whereas, a baby (abandoned or otherwise) need not. Suffice to say, this is an oversimplification and fails to account for the broader context of pregnancy. Argument to Pro.
People seeds
This thought experiment explored what should be done when reasonable measures to avoid pregnancy fail. Pro’s indirect response seems to be that there is no such thing as a reasonable measure (except presumably abstinence) because, in his mind, sex equates to pregnancy. Of course, this simply isn’t true as highlighted by the facts that:
1)unprotected sex on average yields conception every 78 attempts (far from sex and pregnancy being synonymous), and;
2)people have sex for many reasons other than reproduction (none of which abstinence could address).
The fact of the matter is that people are going to have sex because it satisfies many needs, the unexpected sometimes happens, and a woman is within her rights to forgo pregnancy and what it might do to her body and life. Of course, if she chooses to bring a child into the world – that’s her prerogative as well. That’s personal sovereignty. Ultimately, Con did not (at least not directly) address this argument. Argument to Pro.
Violinist argument
Con has imported arguments from another debate in order to attack them rather than addressing the argument presented here. The argument as stated does not suggest the violinist is part of the person’s body – only that the person’s biology has been co-opted against their will AND this creates no obligation on their part. The argument allows the personhood of both entities, and stresses the thrust of my case which is that there is no right to use the body of another without consent (regardless of personhood). This argument is completely unaddressed due to this misrepresentation. Argument to Pro.
Grammar and Spelling
I see no advantage going to either debater on this.
Final word
Given that this is my final word in this debate, I would like to ask my opponent not to provide anything new as that would be unfair to me. I'll rely on the reader and the judges to hold Con accountable. That being said, I would like to thank my opponent for this debate. It has been a thoroughly enjoyable experience, and on that, I will turn this over to him. May your words be true and your arguments strong!
Vote Pro!
Con
#8
Why Abortion Should Not be Legal
Fact 1: The unborn is a human being.
Pro did not challenge this fact, nor is it reasonable to do so scientifically.
Fact 2: Pro admits it is a human being, but he and abortion advocates lessen its value and status through disparaging language (see the last heading).
Fact 3: Killing innocent human beings is unjust. The unborn is an innocent human being.
Pro never outright disputed the status of its innocence or humanity but did so subtly with semantics.
Fact 4: The Nazis lessened the value and status of many groups of human beings living within Germany by their laws and propaganda, leading to the Holocaust.
A section of my R2 established that Nazi law and Nazi practices devalued and dehumanized particular groups within German society. Pro never disputed those facts, although he argued my comparative analogy between unwanted groups (Jews) and the unborn were unfound. Not true. In both cases, the language undercuts the humanity and personhood of the group(s) it isolates.
Fact 5: Abortion is a colossal human Holocaust unsurpassed by numbers killed to date in the history of the world (over 1.5 billion human beings legislated out of existence since 1980). [1]
Fact 6: Pro could not establish the unborn was not a personal being from conception. He granted it for the sake of this argument. His one supporting citation as evidence of non-personhood [2] was highly speculative, loaded with uncertain language,
"In 1973 the Supreme Court had refused to resolve the question,"
"...the scientific point of view...concluded that biology alone is not able to determine the point at which personhood is established,"
"scientists expressed their view,"
"Reasons for not defining the fetus as a person included the negative impact on providing medical services to the mother and the fetus,..."
"further explorations of the question are necessary."
Although Pro did not prove it was a non-person (his onus), he is okay with stripping it of any legal rights. I argued that from conception, the unborn is a person by its very nature from a philosophical as well as logical perspective. Pro failed to challenge my contentions adequately, even conceding for the sake of this debate that it is a person, yet treats it differently from other persons. In America, what other innocent people can you kill because you don't want them? Hence, Pro has a double standard unless its lack of personhood is proven.
Two Main Arguments - Health and Bodily Rights
a) Woman's Health
Pro was unable to establish that the woman's death rate from pregnancy, was lesser numerically, to the unborn death rate from abortion. Statistically, the death rate from abortion is far higher than the death rate for pregnancy complications. Pro says that "restricting abortion does nothing to reduce its frequency." Even if this were true (due to choosing an illegal abortion as the contributing factor of those deaths, not pregnancy), that does not make two wrongs a right. Even if illegal abortions contribute to just as many deaths as do legal abortions when did ever breaking the law or ignoring the most basic right to life for innocent human beings justify doing something wrong?
Pro never established but only claimed the moral right of abortion (for any reason), especially for bodily rights as being right. Morally, Pro pushed for human equality, citing the UN Declaration on Human Rights, at the same time undermining such rights with his stand on Pro-choice. He says we should treat all human beings equally then proceeds to argue the innocent unborn human are not equal. His position is a glaring deficiency and contradiction.
Only "a small proportion of women who have abortions do so because of health concerns or fetal anomalies, the large majority choose termination in response to an unintended pregnancy." [3]
"Worldwide, the most commonly reported reason women cite for having an abortion is to postpone or stop childbearing." [4]
Again, the reasons are not usually health-related but unwantedness for a variety of factors. Sub Sahara Africa does not fare well in family planning. Abortion becomes a method of contraception there as well as in Asia, such as in Japan (89%). [5]
In the USA, the risk to maternal health is 2.8%; with fetal health, the risk is 3.3%. [6] Health reasons, other than for Pakistan and India play a tiny percentage in why women opt for abortions. [7]
The data available is considered inconclusive and unreliable in many countries. The primary health factor could be for psychological reasons - e.g. ostracization, guilt, shame. For fetal defects, the sex of the child factors into such evaluations in the pregnancy (the Chinese bias to want sons). Health concerns play a minor part in abortions.
b) Bodily Autonomy
Regarding bodily autonomy, Pro wanted to absolute the woman's bodily autonomy. He repeatedly argues that others should ask the woman's consent before using her body, rightly so, yet the unborn is unable to do this. What is more, by the woman consenting to sex, she understands the possibility of pregnancy occurring. With most cases of pregnancy, she agrees to sex. Rape related abortions count for about 1% of all abortions in the USA. [3]
The Violinist
Pros misapprehension here is that the innocent unborn is a stranger (the unborn shares a part of her DNA) who was forcibly attached to the woman's body. In most cases, the sexual union carried with it her consent with the possibility of pregnancy occurring and is a natural biological result of sexual union, not a forced one. Non-consensual sex or rape is the 1% exception to willing intercourse in the USA.
People Seeds
Pro mistakenly thinks that I equate sex to automatic pregnancy. My point is there is a moral responsibility involved with sex that happens with pregnancy. By consenting, there is a chance of forming a new life. I addressed his argument of the woman's bodily "sovereignty" under absolute rights. Nowhere should any person have absolute rights over their body to do with it whatever they like if it involves killing another innocent human being. Pro gives the woman greater rights than men.
Human Rights
Pro continually led me to believe he conceded the personhood argument, so I did not pursue it further, yet in R4, he again puts the onus on me. He has the burden to prove it is not a person of which he did not do.
As mentioned previously, human rights are the weakest part of his argument as explained in Facts # 2-6.
Morality and Law
Pro does not consider my moral or legal arguments to be "strong" for illegalizing abortion. Pro is wrong; he pushes legal abortion as "morally preferable" not as morally right. The harm done to the unborn is irrevocable. Pro does not recognize the "offspring" as a separate "independent entity," but has the illusion it is part of or and "extension" of the woman's body. Therefore he believes the woman can do with it as she pleases. His logic is faulty. If the unborn is part of or an extension of a pregnant woman, she would have four arms and legs, a separate, distinct DNA and blood system, and sometimes a penis. The unborn is its own entity, a different organism, directing its personal development internally. These are scientific facts that Pro conflates and confuses with false assertions. Granted, the unborn relies on the woman's womb and nutrients for its temporary home and food source. Perhaps Pro mistakenly thinks that the only analogy is one of sustenance, but it is one of moral right and wrong, per the heading.
Furthermore, Pro equates harm to the unborn in killing it as lesser harm that the woman endures in carrying it for nine months then perhaps putting it up for adoption. As for the charge that I equate the unborn and abandoned baby as equal, what does that mean? They are equal from a moral perspective, not a developmental perspective, just like a baby and a teen are somewhat different developmentally but no less a human being.
The Loaded Dehumanizing and Depersonalizing Language of Abortion
Although Pro and many Pro-choicers are most likely unaware, they used the same kind of dehumanizing language used by oppressive totalitarian authorities to marginalize opposing groups of society for their purposes. [8] By applying a different legal standard to such groups, Roe V Wade set a precedent for abortion. Roe V Wade questioned the personhood of the unborn, was wrong in its historical summation and used devaluing language to sway public opinion to change laws. Pro used suggestive, dehumanizing, and devaluing language during this debate, with terms like "potential life" or suggestions that the gamete is "sufficiently different from what is typically recognized as 'human'" to lessen what the unborn is.
He made misrepresenting, unscientific statements like "what makes humans special isn't our cells or DNA (which is pretty much all there is at conception)," but that DNA is what does make us unique for it directs the human organism to be what it is. The unborn is more than a collection of cells. At conception, the unborn is a separate, individual, unique human entity with everything it needs internally to direct its growth to its full potential. Like every other human entity or personal being, it needs an environment and nutrients ( that the woman supplies) to aid it in its development.
I thank Pro for willingly debating this important subject!
Fact 3: Killing innocent human beings is unjust. The unborn is an innocent human being.
Pro never outright disputed the status of its innocence or humanity but did so subtly with semantics.
Fact 4: The Nazis lessened the value and status of many groups of human beings living within Germany by their laws and propaganda, leading to the Holocaust.
A section of my R2 established that Nazi law and Nazi practices devalued and dehumanized particular groups within German society. Pro never disputed those facts, although he argued my comparative analogy between unwanted groups (Jews) and the unborn were unfound. Not true. In both cases, the language undercuts the humanity and personhood of the group(s) it isolates.
Fact 5: Abortion is a colossal human Holocaust unsurpassed by numbers killed to date in the history of the world (over 1.5 billion human beings legislated out of existence since 1980). [1]
Pro never demonstrated these unfactual. He turns a blind eye while he pushed for a woman's "right" to control her own body, regardless of the consequences which he trivializes in killing the unborn. Pro also misunderstands the difference between him using someone else's body without consent and the unborn's situation. They are not parallel (see Violinist).
Fact 6: Pro could not establish the unborn was not a personal being from conception. He granted it for the sake of this argument. His one supporting citation as evidence of non-personhood [2] was highly speculative, loaded with uncertain language,
"In 1973 the Supreme Court had refused to resolve the question,"
"...the scientific point of view...concluded that biology alone is not able to determine the point at which personhood is established,"
"scientists expressed their view,"
"Reasons for not defining the fetus as a person included the negative impact on providing medical services to the mother and the fetus,..."
"further explorations of the question are necessary."
Although Pro did not prove it was a non-person (his onus), he is okay with stripping it of any legal rights. I argued that from conception, the unborn is a person by its very nature from a philosophical as well as logical perspective. Pro failed to challenge my contentions adequately, even conceding for the sake of this debate that it is a person, yet treats it differently from other persons. In America, what other innocent people can you kill because you don't want them? Hence, Pro has a double standard unless its lack of personhood is proven.
Two Main Arguments - Health and Bodily Rights
a) Woman's Health
Pro was unable to establish that the woman's death rate from pregnancy, was lesser numerically, to the unborn death rate from abortion. Statistically, the death rate from abortion is far higher than the death rate for pregnancy complications. Pro says that "restricting abortion does nothing to reduce its frequency." Even if this were true (due to choosing an illegal abortion as the contributing factor of those deaths, not pregnancy), that does not make two wrongs a right. Even if illegal abortions contribute to just as many deaths as do legal abortions when did ever breaking the law or ignoring the most basic right to life for innocent human beings justify doing something wrong?
Pro never established but only claimed the moral right of abortion (for any reason), especially for bodily rights as being right. Morally, Pro pushed for human equality, citing the UN Declaration on Human Rights, at the same time undermining such rights with his stand on Pro-choice. He says we should treat all human beings equally then proceeds to argue the innocent unborn human are not equal. His position is a glaring deficiency and contradiction.
Only "a small proportion of women who have abortions do so because of health concerns or fetal anomalies, the large majority choose termination in response to an unintended pregnancy." [3]
"Worldwide, the most commonly reported reason women cite for having an abortion is to postpone or stop childbearing." [4]
Again, the reasons are not usually health-related but unwantedness for a variety of factors. Sub Sahara Africa does not fare well in family planning. Abortion becomes a method of contraception there as well as in Asia, such as in Japan (89%). [5]
In the USA, the risk to maternal health is 2.8%; with fetal health, the risk is 3.3%. [6] Health reasons, other than for Pakistan and India play a tiny percentage in why women opt for abortions. [7]
The data available is considered inconclusive and unreliable in many countries. The primary health factor could be for psychological reasons - e.g. ostracization, guilt, shame. For fetal defects, the sex of the child factors into such evaluations in the pregnancy (the Chinese bias to want sons). Health concerns play a minor part in abortions.
b) Bodily Autonomy
Regarding bodily autonomy, Pro wanted to absolute the woman's bodily autonomy. He repeatedly argues that others should ask the woman's consent before using her body, rightly so, yet the unborn is unable to do this. What is more, by the woman consenting to sex, she understands the possibility of pregnancy occurring. With most cases of pregnancy, she agrees to sex. Rape related abortions count for about 1% of all abortions in the USA. [3]
The Violinist
Pros misapprehension here is that the innocent unborn is a stranger (the unborn shares a part of her DNA) who was forcibly attached to the woman's body. In most cases, the sexual union carried with it her consent with the possibility of pregnancy occurring and is a natural biological result of sexual union, not a forced one. Non-consensual sex or rape is the 1% exception to willing intercourse in the USA.
People Seeds
Pro mistakenly thinks that I equate sex to automatic pregnancy. My point is there is a moral responsibility involved with sex that happens with pregnancy. By consenting, there is a chance of forming a new life. I addressed his argument of the woman's bodily "sovereignty" under absolute rights. Nowhere should any person have absolute rights over their body to do with it whatever they like if it involves killing another innocent human being. Pro gives the woman greater rights than men.
Human Rights
Pro continually led me to believe he conceded the personhood argument, so I did not pursue it further, yet in R4, he again puts the onus on me. He has the burden to prove it is not a person of which he did not do.
As mentioned previously, human rights are the weakest part of his argument as explained in Facts # 2-6.
Morality and Law
Pro does not consider my moral or legal arguments to be "strong" for illegalizing abortion. Pro is wrong; he pushes legal abortion as "morally preferable" not as morally right. The harm done to the unborn is irrevocable. Pro does not recognize the "offspring" as a separate "independent entity," but has the illusion it is part of or and "extension" of the woman's body. Therefore he believes the woman can do with it as she pleases. His logic is faulty. If the unborn is part of or an extension of a pregnant woman, she would have four arms and legs, a separate, distinct DNA and blood system, and sometimes a penis. The unborn is its own entity, a different organism, directing its personal development internally. These are scientific facts that Pro conflates and confuses with false assertions. Granted, the unborn relies on the woman's womb and nutrients for its temporary home and food source. Perhaps Pro mistakenly thinks that the only analogy is one of sustenance, but it is one of moral right and wrong, per the heading.
Furthermore, Pro equates harm to the unborn in killing it as lesser harm that the woman endures in carrying it for nine months then perhaps putting it up for adoption. As for the charge that I equate the unborn and abandoned baby as equal, what does that mean? They are equal from a moral perspective, not a developmental perspective, just like a baby and a teen are somewhat different developmentally but no less a human being.
The Loaded Dehumanizing and Depersonalizing Language of Abortion
Although Pro and many Pro-choicers are most likely unaware, they used the same kind of dehumanizing language used by oppressive totalitarian authorities to marginalize opposing groups of society for their purposes. [8] By applying a different legal standard to such groups, Roe V Wade set a precedent for abortion. Roe V Wade questioned the personhood of the unborn, was wrong in its historical summation and used devaluing language to sway public opinion to change laws. Pro used suggestive, dehumanizing, and devaluing language during this debate, with terms like "potential life" or suggestions that the gamete is "sufficiently different from what is typically recognized as 'human'" to lessen what the unborn is.
He made misrepresenting, unscientific statements like "what makes humans special isn't our cells or DNA (which is pretty much all there is at conception)," but that DNA is what does make us unique for it directs the human organism to be what it is. The unborn is more than a collection of cells. At conception, the unborn is a separate, individual, unique human entity with everything it needs internally to direct its growth to its full potential. Like every other human entity or personal being, it needs an environment and nutrients ( that the woman supplies) to aid it in its development.
I thank Pro for willingly debating this important subject!
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
Pro Arguments: Womans Health, and Human Rights.
Con Arguments: Human Being, Personhood, Unjust Societies (Nazi), Dehumanizing Unborn,
Pro made a strong case about Womans health. Great details and stats. Showed harm if pregnancies are banned. I believed what was being said. Con focused a bunch on personhood, and Nazi's Implying that having legal abortions is like running an unjust society not better than the Nazis. Con also kept repeating that everyone is treated equal under the law.
Pro did a good job questioning the definition of personhood, giving some std and cancer examples.
The debate is about the law. Pro made better arguments about the impact of having legal abortion. Con did not paint a clear picture on if abortions are illegal.
Pro's arguments were clearer, and more plausible.
Both did great.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
After Protest, I supplement my original vote and apologize to the parties.
Pros position on Womans Health, and Human Rights were far more tangible, especially when taken into consideration with their opening argument being illegality does not necessarily reduce the occurrence. In addition, Pro did a better job of staying focused on the issue at hand and repeatedly tried to bring the conversation back to that point. It is something that I appreciate.
Con attempted to change the definition of the woman to woman and unborn in stats framing. This for me was an area of no return. Con had just argued about the independent personhood of a fetus. Con then argues that a woman and fetus are one, for the pure purposes of trying to misapply CDC statistics on the acquisition of abortion to woman health, at which point it could be argued there was an adoption of the Violinist theory.
Con also miscategorized the rights differences brought yup between a man and a woman and how they use their body, Their application of the term inalienable does not meet legal standards (inalienable does not mean irrevocable as Pro pointed out)
Finally, credibility is substantially eroded when Nazi's are brought in for comparative purposes. It just undermines the entire argument from Con.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
RFD given here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Qahk3ymdFQsyUq0pAEeFs8htdvRIv8O92vo_GZlr7io/edit?usp=sharing
Tougher choice this time around, though the tl:dr is that I feel Pro did a better job weighing his points with the given resolution, whereas Con was a little too focused on a single point to place it solidly in the broader context of the debate.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
Women's Health: Pro argues, with citation, “Of all abortions, an estimated 55% are safe (i.e., done using a recommended method and by an appropriately trained provider)..." This is not a convincing percentage to argue that abortion is "safe" since it acknowledges that there are degrees of safeness. Con argues, with citation, ""CDC...confirmed that there were more than 3,400 pregnancy-related deaths over a five-year period in the United States," and that, "The estimated abortion deaths, same time period --> 3,156,876 - 5,335,59" The two citations indicate that there are a thousand-fold more abortions than pregnancy-related deaths, which suggests that "women's health" is, at best, a relative term, along with "safeness" and not a credible leading argument for abortion.
Person: Con is consistent in the definition of what constitutes "person" as being human, whereas Pro vacillates in that definition.
Rights: Con argues that the unborn, being acknowledged as "persons" and humans, have rights afforded to human. Pro, due to the above vacillation, cannot argue from form both sides of the table and maintain credibility. Example: Pro argues, as a definition, that "Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, regardless of race, sex, nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, or any other status." It's the "any other status" that hangs all other Pro claims that the right to life belongs only to the woman, and not the fetus, since "Every person has a moral right to control their own body," when Pro also argues, "Freedom, justice, and peace rests on fundamental human rights such as ‘freedom from slavery, freedom from torture, equality, and the right to life." Pro has not successfully argued that a human is not human at conception, even though arguing that a "person" is not established at conception, hanging "person" on a nebulous hook of "consciousness." Pro has not demonstrated by evidence that a fetus has no consciousness, and must do that to deny a fetus the right that freedom and justice demand.
S.L.E.D. depends on a value being "taken" from the pregnant woman by the fetus, that value being nutrients, even if, in the transfer of nutrients, the woman's body is deprived of them to the degree they are "taken" by the fetus. What in the process specifically requires that "give" is not at least an equal to "take" in that the "give" is not a conscious act by the woman any more than "take" is a conscious act of the fetus? After all, Pro argues that consciousness is not a feature endowed to the fetus.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner
1 point(s)
Reason:
1. Health
Pro uses sources to prove a clear harm for almost no gain (prevented abortions).
Con uses YouTube videos in an attempt to get voters to ignore the offered evidence. He does also throw numbers around, but I’ll trust in professional analysis from Guttmacher or other sources above his interpretation. Pro of course defends using expert contextual analysis.
2. Human Rights
Pro uses comparative rights to men to show further harm to women, with the slavery analogy.
With his second and sixth contentions, con revisits this to say that the unborn are the real slaves.
Pro defends that rights should not be stripped away from people. And further that sex is not always consensual, thus there’s cases that side step pro’s entire argument.
Pro further uses the people seeds and violinist analogies (on the Violinist one in particular, con claims pro was refuted on it, without bothering to refute it; or better yet show why an audience member would be obligated to be enslaved as a life support system for someone else...).
This area could be well summarized ith “there is no right to use the body of another without consent.” Given that con dropped things like consent and rape until the final round after pro could no longer respond, and then barely touched them, he doesn’t have a case in favor of human rights.
3. SLED
Pro preemptively argues that no one has the right to forcibly take resources from another, even if that is the only means for them to survive.
With his first contention, Con revisits this to try to make some point out of already conceded material.
4. Personhood
Con asserts (and then later under another slightly different name) that the unborn should have full personhood from the moment of conception.
Con further turns this into a Gish Gallop by repeating it under multiple slightly different named contention headings.
Pro used nih.gov to refute pro’s claims about scientific concensious on when personhood begins. He further uses “human cancer” to show that if con’s argument holds, all cancer treatment in humans must be ceased as human cancer would be a person.
Pro further uses human STDs being treatable to bolster this point.
5. Nazis
Con lengthy declares that pro is a nazi.
Pro points out the obvious fallacious, and hilariously shows that Nazis were also against abortions.
With con continuing this in R2, it’s very hard to take his case seriously.
---
Arguments:
See above review of key points. Somewhat of a messy debate, but the outcome doesn’t seem to favor con in any area, and to vote him would call for likewise voting against cancer and STD treatments.
...and just so you know, I'm not objecting to your negative vote, but a vote not informed by the debate.
I see no indication you are applying the same standards to both debaters. For instance, from what credible source do we find 'human life is special because of cells and DNA'? Your bias is plain.
My case was not built on negating personhood. If you had read the debate, you would understand that personhood is no defeator of my arguments. My entire point was that there is no right to use the body of another without consent, and, a right to life (along with the whole suite of human rights) doesn't change this.
You argue, "I am not unsympathetic to his argument, but the situation is much [too] nuanced to stop there." However, then you argue, "What makes humans special isn’t our cells or our DNA (which is pretty much all there is at conception)," but you offer no source for that opinion; in particular, the parenthetic clause. Who says that? A credible source? Then cite it. But, you did not. Then you argue, "I have chosen, for the sake of the argument, to imagine the unborn as people," negating your entire argument against your opponent's relative to the person issue. If you also acknowledge that the unborn are people, what's the nuance? That another, the woman, also has nuance? If you admit that is so, I submit your argument is flawed. Thus, my decision. Do not assume I am driven by my personal preference.
As a counter argument by a pro-choice: "In summary, prohibition and restrictive laws do not appear to reduce the frequency of abortion overall, but they do decrease women’s health in a society by forcing women to reluctantly seek necessary medical treatment (at later stages when more complications can occur) without the oversight provided by government regulation." I do not regard that as a "better" argument. Frequency should not necessarily be a legal point any more than a singular murderer is any less illegal that a serial killer. It is matter of moral degree, perhaps, but not legal. Nor, should one consider a debate "lost" until the voting is finished. Let us not replace one indiscretion with another.
But, I will accept the judgment of another moderator.
Thank you.
I'm asking another moderator to handle the review of the new vote.
Without judgement for if this applies to the new one... A basic rule of thumb is that you're not voting for who is right, merely who argued the resolution better. As a related example, when a pro-lifer argued "Fetuses as a replacement for the USD" even if he was right due to being pro-life, he still lost the debate due to various practical considerations.
Boo, bad vote x 2! You are not an objective voter, sir. No where did I say the unborn has no right to life. Take your ideology glasses off, and read the words I wrote and not the words you imagined I've said.
Here is a direct quote - from the debate - which refutes your misrepresentation:
"My opponent argues for human rights as well, namely, that the ‘unborn have the right to life’. I am not unsympathetic to his argument, but the situation is much [too] nuanced to stop there."
Yes, I think it was a slant that had not been taken often before from what I have read.
Finished reading through the debate, still puzzling out my thoughts on the matter. It's a fascinating read (not common among abortion debates I've read, so well done to both of you), not in the least because the points that will have the strongest influence on my decision are not what I thought they would be. Well, that's enough teasing for now. I'm going to chew over this for a bit longer before I come down on a decision, though I have a clear idea of what's going to make or break each side at this point, just not yet sure which side was broken.
**************************************************
>Reported Vote: fauxlaw // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: 0:1; 1 point to Con.
>Reason for Decision: See Comments Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action: In essence, the vote feels like it is the voter's opinion of the topic to say who is right and wrong, as opposed to being about the content of the debate itself (even while some content was indeed mentioned).
To cast a sufficient vote in the choose winner system, a voter must explicitly, and in the text of their RFD, perform the following tasks:
(1) survey the main arguments and counter arguments presented in the debate,
(2) weigh those arguments against each other (or explain why certain arguments need not be weighed based on what transpired within the debate itself), and
(3) explain how, through the process of weighing, they arrived at their voting decision with regard to assigning argument points. Weighing entails analyzing how the relative strength of one argument or set of arguments outweighed (that is, out-impacted) and/or precluded another argument or set of arguments. Weighing requires analyzing and situating arguments and counterarguments within the context of the debate as a whole.
The voter acted in such a way to suggest they did not give fair weighting to the debate content.
Outside content may be commented on, so long as it does not cross into being a determinant factor on the vote. Should the voter weigh things outside of what the debaters themselves presented inside the debate rounds, the vote is eligible for deletion (identified plagiarism is a notable exception).
**************************************************
fauxlaw
4 days ago
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Winner ✗ ✗ ✔ 1 point
Reason:
1. Rights/Roles
Pro argues that women do not share the reproductive rights a man enjoys, and worse, declares the "right" as a disadvantage if exercised. This is not a valid argument because women and men do not share the same reproductive biology. A right is ubiquitous. No demographic can separate rights, even by gender. If any demographic is acknowledged in separate rights on the same subject, the right is forfeited, or, rather, was never granted in the first place. Therefore, a "reproductive right" must be considered as something else, but not an inherent right. Further, calling it a "reproductive" right when the preference is to not reproduce in kind, contrary to the nature of separate gender reproductive, contributive biology, seems to cause a legal hiccup not resolved merely by claiming "reproductive right."
Further, the claim of Roe v Wade of a woman's right to the privacy of her body is unsupportable relative to the case decision reference of several constitutional amendments, particularly the 4A and 14A, both of which speak to "secure in their persons" which is an entirely different concept than "privacy," since a person can be insecure in their own home [as by a member of the household] and private in a crowd [as by remaining aloof]. Abortion proponents claim that a woman has the right of privacy of her body, and that a fetus is an invasion on that privacy. In fact, 'privacy' is a non-extant term in the Constitution. However, a woman's physiological structure is such that, when pregnant, although enveloping the fetus, the fetus, the umbilical, the amniotic sac, and its fluid, and the placenta are of completely different DNA than the pregnant woman. No part of these tissues are "part of" her body. Quite simply, nature given its natural course, all of that tissue is ejected from the woman's body, and the fetus remains a separate, distinct being on its own merit. It never was, and never is part of her body. Otherwise, when a woman opened her mouth, her tongue wold fall out.
2. Human v. Person
Both sides argued this point, and, indeed, as Pro charged in round 3, they were "talking passed one another." However, whereas Pro vacillated in the use of both terms, Con argued the "human" perspective much more consistently than Pro argued the "person" perspective. Since the law is at odds with itself on this point, such as the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004, which applies a double-murder charge, which is only perpetrated against a person, to a perpetrator when murdering a pregnant woman, as opposed to 1 U.S.C. §8, which defines a person as born alive, regardless of state of development, the consistency goes to Con.
3. Nazis
I found this whole argument non-relevant to the debate question. That both engaged it, though launched by Con, is a negation to both. As I deem it a non sequitur discussion point, I eliminate it out of hand as a scoring factor.
Thank you very much, SkepticalOne! I appreciate your condolences.
I do plan to get to this - thankfully, there's still plenty of time. I'll be reading through this shortly.
I'm very sorry to hear about your sister, Peter. You have my condolences.
I do hope to see your vote on this debate, but if not, perhaps you'll post an analysis. I tried to implement the suggestions from your last analysis and would like to know how they came across.
im not surprised one bit
YOU: "Pro lifers in Texas have pushed abstinence only sex education, knowing that such increases the number of abortions (the trick is the abortion rate stays the same, so more underage girls are pregnant overall)."
I want to remind you again, when you make something legal more people will do that thing, thus more human beings will be killed. This has been proven by the statistical data on abortions before and after the sexual revolution, before and after Roe V Wade.
I'm not following it so I'm asking for you to clarify it.
>>> "Are all human beings intrinsically valuable? If not then what does it matter what we do with teenagers or the unborn?"
YOU "You may want to be more careful of your phrasing when referencing teenage girls.
As per your question: see my previous answers on it."
YOU, previously: "Pro-life politicians push to maximize teen pregnancy rates even at the expense of increased abortions. And pro-lifers in the general public lend support for this by electing and re-electing them, sometimes as single-issue voters."
And again,
YOU: "Pro lifers in Texas have pushed abstinence only sex education, knowing that such increases the number of abortions (the trick is the abortion rate stays the same, so more underage girls are pregnant overall)."
***
It is wrong for teenagers to be having sex at such a young age and giving them condoms gives the message that it is okay to have sex at 13-years-old as long as you protect yourself.
What I believe you are missing is that you are promoting doing something wrong and since you promote it then you should also promote killing innocent human beings as the countermeasure. Two wrongs do not make a right. They make two wrongs.
YOU: "You may want to be more careful of your phrasing when referencing teenage girls."
Maybe I am missing your point here but let me expand.
To my point about teens and the unborn. Once you cross the line that all human beings are not intrinsically valuable then anything can be justified as long as you have the numbers, and/or the authority and power to enforce such laws as killing them. In no way do I, in my belief, believe that teenagers are less valuable or more valuable but of equal value to every other human being. Your inference seems to suggest otherwise. Please be clear on that point. Furthermore, the very fact that you take offence to the one and not the other seems to suggest that you place more value on the teen than the unborn human being. Thus, if that is the case, you are treating some human beings differently and more valuable than other human beings. So, if that is the case, you have a double standard. You object to my point while practicing the same thing you are accusing me of.
Both teens and the unborn should be valued and protected against harm. Who made the pro-choicer God in that they want to give the choice on who lives and who dies to the woman? I will remind you that the death toll for the unborn in sheer numbers is the greatest holocaust to date in modern history. Since 1973 there have been more than 1.6 billion such human beings killed/murdered. I pointed out in the debate that with the sexual revolution, then Roe V Wade the number of abortions rose significantly. Human life became discardable for this group of human beings.
See previous message.
>>> "Who is pushing to maximize teen pregnancies? That is nonsense."
YOU: "As already stated: "decreased teen abortions by 48%. The only people opposed to this were pro-lifers" and "in Texas have pushed abstinence only sex education, knowing that such increases the number of abortions (the trick is the abortion rate stays the same, so more underage girls are pregnant overall)."
Rightly so, they should push for abstinence or are you telling me you are for teenagers (i.e., 13-17-year-olds) having sex and getting pregnant? If that is the case you should be pushing for changing the law.
We live in a culture that promotes sex. Education should start at home. Again, it is a moral issue. This issue is, is it okay to kill innocent human beings because you don't want them or they are inconvenient? That is the point we are arguing.
>>> "Who is pushing to maximize teen pregnancies? That is nonsense."
As already stated: "decreased teen abortions by 48%. The only people opposed to this were pro-lifers" and "in Texas have pushed abstinence only sex education, knowing that such increases the number of abortions (the trick is the abortion rate stays the same, so more underage girls are pregnant overall)."
>>> "Are all human beings intrinsically valuable? If not then what does it matter what we do with teenagers or the unborn?"
You may want to be more careful of your phrasing when referencing teenage girls.
As per your question: see my previous answers on it.
>>> "'I'm not sure why you are tying in birth control with abortion in this manner. To me, it gives the appearance of villanizing the Pro-life stance."
When that stance is literally that not becoming pregnant is the same as an abortion (as pro-lifers argued in Colorado), I'll happily villainize it.
https://www.mynspr.org/post/colorado-debates-whether-iuds-are-contraception-or-abortion
>>> "My aunt was murdered and my uncle lost his farm and fled the country."
You have my sincere sympathy.
YOU: "Not being pregnant is the same as getting an abortion?"
YOU: "Pro-life politicians push to maximize teen pregnancy rates even at the expense of increased abortions. And pro-lifers in the general public lend support for this by electing and re-electing them, sometimes as single-issue voters."
"Push to maximize teen pregnancy?" "At the expense of increased abortions?"
Who is pushing to maximize teen pregnancies? That is nonsense.
Pro-lifers do not think abortion should be a form of birth control. I, personally, am okay with contraception use to prevent pregnancy (although I do not think contraception is the ideal choice, neither do I think sex outside of marriage is either), but I'm not okay with abortion and I'm not okay promoting sex for minors by handing out contraception. I think that sends the wrong message. Society, as a whole, promotes sex outside of marriage and all kinds of immoral behaviours. That does not make it right, just acceptable. Education and teaching children what is right is key. Thus, my second previous point is still the question that needs answering. Are all human beings intrinsically valuable? If not then what does it matter what we do with teenagers or the unborn? You seem to feel it does matter for one group but not another.
I'm not sure why you are tying in birth control with abortion in this manner. To me, it gives the appearance of villanizing the Pro-life stance. What I understand you as saying is that because Pro-lifers oppose giving out contraception to teenagers they increases abortions? What I feel you failed to address or consider here is the moral aspects of abortion. Giving out contraception to teenagers promotes sexual activity for younger and younger people. But is abortion just? Is the law on abortion just? Is it just to kill innocent human beings? I feel your first point not from the Pro-life stance but from your counter pro-choice position would be, "There's literally [a] difference between the unborn and a fully functioning adult." That would be the discriminatory and DEHUMANIZING language I spoke of during the debate. What it does is it minimizes one class of human beings, the unborn, to a lesser status of being than you or I (i.e., not as human). That "lesser status" was my criticism of Nazi Germany and I believe what most/all repressive regimes throughout the world do, to some extent. As I said, I lived and vacationed in South Africa. My childhood into my teens was spent in colonial Africa. I've witnessed racism and understand how human beings in these countries have been demonized and dehumanized by those in power. I also understand how after UDI in Zimbabwe the marginalized groups became the white Africans. My aunt was murdered and my uncle lost his farm and fled the country.
>>>3. "Not being pregnant is the same as getting an abortion?"
>>>What does that mean? I don't follow your line of reasoning. How can you have an abortion without first being pregnant?
Pro-life politicians push to maximize teen pregnancy rates even at the expense of increased abortions. And pro-lifers in the general public lend support for this by electing and re-electing them, sometimes as single-issue voters.
Easy examples of this in action:
1. In Colorado public funding for contraceptives saved the state a massive $5.85 per $1 spent, this equaled about $79 million saved in just two years. Further, this decreased teen abortions by 48%. The only people opposed to this were pro-lifers.
2. Pro lifers in Texas have pushed abstinence only sex education, knowing that such increases the number of abortions (the trick is the abortion rate stays the same, so more underage girls are pregnant overall).
YOU: "Three common pro-life beliefs:
1. There's literally no difference between the unborn and a fully functioning adult.
2. Abortion is legally murder.
3. Not being pregnant is the same as getting an abortion."
Thank you.
1. There is a difference but not in kind but in the level of development. The unborn is a human being just like you are. Thus it is a moral issue when you kill innocent human beings regardless of their level of development.
2. In most cases, the unborn are intentionally killed. This brings up the issue of whether human beings are intrinsically valuable. If not then what does it matter if we kill or single out groups of human beings?
3. "Not being pregnant is the same as getting an abortion?"
What does that mean? I don't follow your line of reasoning. How can you have an abortion without first being pregnant?
Three common pro-life beliefs:
1. There's literally no difference between the unborn and a fully functioning adult.
2. Abortion is legally murder.
3. Not being pregnant is the same as getting an abortion.
RAGNAR: "Granted, some claimed pro-lifers consider a woman simply not being pregnant to be the same as her butchering someone in possession of a drivers licence, so to some it's rather simple..."
I'm having a hard time understanding your analogy.
It's way more complex than that, which is why we're able to have so many debates on it.
Granted, some claimed pro-lifers consider a woman simply not being pregnant to be the same as her butchering someone in possession of a drivers licence, so to some it's rather simple...
Abortion is murder. That's all I have to say. We should also consider the rights of the man involved, since he is the father of the child and also has an opinion. The women's health and rights argument has stemmed from the Feminist Movement, which wishes to allow women to do everything, but men do nothing, and that they are higher than the law.
I lost track of time. It was two and a half weeks ago.
Yes, I understood your point about Trump.
I think abortion is a touchy subject because many people rightly recognize the unborn as a human being and understand it is wrong to kill innocent human beings. Thus, I personally think it is a coping mechanism, a way of justifying what should not be justified.
Thank you for the prayers! My sister's grandkids especially took it hard.
Also saw the comment about your sister. I’ll send some prayers out for all of you.
First off, I agree with your position. Also, I don’t think Trump is like Hitler. I was saying that the same way you react to that claim, pro-choice people will react to the claim of their position being Nazi-like.
I do similarity lack some subtly related to Nazi/slavery parallels, myself. They can work if there isn’t a large stigma against your position. I did it in my capital punishment debate, but abortion is a very touchy subject that people have strong opinions about. So while you were correct in your points, it wasn’t good for appealing to voters.
Thanks! I'll switch over to personal messaging to discuss the details.
I’m sorry to hear about your sister. We can discuss the scope of the debate, though just note that justice won’t be the only issue on the table.
Okay. Thank you. I will take you up on the offer. My sister just died last week so I will take a few more weeks before I engage in another debate but please discuss with me in private the scope of the terminology of the debate you would consider engaging in. I think a comparison is feasible and it is the most hotly contested issue, or perhaps even a debate on Roe V Wade as a just law, or perhaps on the intrinsic worth of human beings and what that means in matters of justice.
And, I might add, the woman who chose to end the unborns life hopefully would not treat the unborn as she would any born human being.
If you want to shift to a discussion over whether or not the comparison is apt, or have a debate on our views on abortion in general, I suggest we take that out of the comments on this debate. We can set up a debate or have this discussion in the forums.
Thank you for the discussion! Your opinion and mental acumen are well-known on this forum and the previous one and in most subject areas I see this as so. I do disagree with you on abortion, however. That is why we hold two opposite views.
Is the comparison just? Is it true regarding what is being done? I care about justice. I care about what is done to the unborn. I do not believe justice is served with the pro-choice position. Do you believe all human beings should be treated equally under the law and is not the unborn an innocent human being? I think the wording of pro-choicers disguises this crucial factor. I struggled to get a clear-cut image of what the unborn was thought to be by the pro-choicer in all three debates. Even if it was acknowledged as being a human being and a personal being it was not treated as a human being should be treated and I am convinced the language reflected that.
Alright, I’m done then. It’s clear that you care more about either the comparison or being right than you do about educating people because you won’t take any ownership over the responses you get to this comparison. I guess I mistook your aims with these debates. My apologies.
Hi, bmdrocks21.
First, the comparisons between Trump and Hitler are largely unwarranted and fabricated, IMO, yet we could argue it. I can't shut down your argument until I hear it. I would not shut you down but confront you on your argument.
When discussing "should abortion be legal," as I pointed out, two or three things need to be considered.
1) What is the unborn?
2) If it is human are all human beings intrinsically valuable? If not, what is to stop us from discriminating against any human being or taking its life?
3) Are the laws just and justified?
To deal with unjust laws I picked the most extreme example I could think of and mirrored it with abortion. I showed how Nazi laws were gradually instituted because of the negative view presented of a group or groups of people to the culture. To get rid of or marginalize these groups the attitude of that society was changed through particular tools (words and word images) to influence the majority. Once desensitized, the discriminated and demonized groups could be done with whatever was desired with minimum moral outrage.
When you say, "first prove the prochoice position is devaluing humans," by proving they are human beings I believe I either did that not only with scientific arguments and quotes but also in a philosophic and moral way. In this current debate, my opponent did not challenge that biological connection directly, yet his words seemed to lessen what the unborn is in many statements, some I pointed out.
I understand what you are saying and I thank you for expressing it. Yes, I took the bull by the horns. I am direct that way. I lack subtly. I showed how, when laws are unjust bad things happen with the Nazis as my prime example. Both examples speak of a Holocaust and things I argue should not be done. The argument was shocking. But we are having the discussion. I think you recognize that devaluation was/is used by both groups since you stated it to some degree.
Do you think pro-choicers have justified taking the life of the unborn by advocating for "her body, her choice," or by arguing that abortion law, in most cases, is just?
Then the perception needs to be addressed. The perception in Nazi Germany was not addressed at that time sufficiently. Look what that caused. Is that not what is being done here to an extent. If prolifers try to educate people on how language, laws, and culture can discriminate against others and that is what is being done - discrimination - just like in Nazi Germany, we are presented as kooks or wrong in our thinking.
I'm telling people that what was done to the Jew in Nazi Germany is being done to the unborn via abortion. The Jew and the Slav, for many Nazis, were the "Untermenschen." By discrimination and dehumanization, innocent human beings are being killed. Is that not concerning? That does not mean I am calling people Nazis. No. I'm saying what is being done through language, laws, media, the arts, education to form a negative image of the unborn was the same tactic the Nazis used to change opinion about the Jews and others, and look at what happened. I used the Nazis to illustrate how unjust laws can be passed by such a culture of hatred or indifference. The culture of prochoice is indifferent to the unborn. You are saying it is not educating because people refuse to even consider the argument once the Nazis are mentioned. Then the problem is not with the argument but with those holding the view of dismissal. Thus the culture needs to be confronted on this issue instead of hiding it and ignoring it. It cannot be resolved until it is discussed.
In "Less than human," David Livingstone Smith chose to highlight three groups in his book. He notes the list of possible choices was great but because of the "historical significants" of these groups they have been "richly documented." Thus Smith believed they were "excellent paradigm cases" in examining the "core features of the dehumanizing process."
https://www.amazon.ca/Less-Than-Human-Enslave-Exterminate/dp/1250003830/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=less+than+human&qid=1583251601&s=books&sr=1-1 See p.6.
So, I could say that you and prochoicers are so focused on what I am saying that you miss how crucial this issue is. How will prochoicers engage in this discussion unless they are called to task? So the example is extreme, it is shocking, but so is taking the unborn's life, and in numbers so huge it surpasses what has ever been done before to one group of human beings that I know of. And again, in no way do I call them Nazis, let's be clear. What I do is show how what they do is what the Nazis did to make a group of human beings less than what they are. They use language, laws, and culture to desensitize the culture to what the unborn is, a human being. The unborn are not being treated like a human being deserves to be treated. It is a human atrocity like no other in numbers, yet prochoicers fail to acknowledge this in their trivialization of the unborn. They can't even agree that it is being denied a human being's most basic right, the right to life. How many times during these three debates I engaged in did my opponent lessen what the unborn was with words like "a clump of cells," a parasite or intruder, or not yet on the same level of humanity as born human beings because of its development? Does development make it less of a human being or another kind of being? If you go down that road then you could argue a newborn or toddler is less human and less of a human being than a teen or adult human being. You can start to separate human beings into groups with devalued worth. The classification can be used to discriminate against any group of human beings. Thus, we need to establish that this kind of pigeonholing is wrong, unjust.
Yeah, considering the major pro-choice bias on this site, it would behoove your argument to mainly allude to Nazis rather than being so upfront about it. You're correct about their devaluing of certain groups and then killing them.
However, think of how you react when people call Trump a "Nazi". You either zone them out or laugh at them because it sounds so ridiculous to you. In the same way, they are very sure that pro choice is the logical position, and they clearly don't see the connection it has to Nazis, otherwise they wouldn't hold the stances they currently do. So, first prove that pro-choice people are devaluing humans. Once you prove that they are biologically humans, and then prove that this human life is being devalued, and they accept those facts, then you can make progress with people. Then you start subtly pointing to parallels to show them how their manner of thinking might be destructive and that valuing all life is a better option. Let them come to the conclusion that pro-choice arguments are similar to Nazi arguments, rather than telling them right away that it is the case.
This is my last effort at explaining this. If it’s not clear after this, it never will be.
Your goal is education, correct? You want people to understand and engage with your points, including pro-choice people, correct? That’s your main aim? Well, telling people that their thinking is akin to Nazi rhetoric does not bring them to the table on those issues. It brings a lot of negativity aimed at the comparison, and practically no discussion of the topic you care so deeply about.
When I say that you’re not focused on what I’m saying, I mean that you are so engaged in the discussion of whether your comparison is apt that you’ve lost sight of your goal. Again, if your goal is to educate, you’re losing it by comparing the people you’re trying to engage with to Nazis. It can be 100% accurate, but that doesn’t make it a good tactic when you’re trying to educate. You keep foisting the blame for the antipathy that you face every time you make this comparison on pro-choice people, so let’s assume it is their fault for being unwilling to go beyond the comparison. You have the power to change that, and all it takes is not comparing pro-choice mentalities to Nazi mentalities. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: if your goal is to be right and show off how right you are, keep doing what you’re doing. If your goal is to educate a group you view as intransigent and unwilling to listen, then the least you can do is take down one unnecessary part of your argument that you know clearly raises their hackles. They won’t be any more educated for hearing that they are like Nazis, but they are a lot more likely to engage with anything else in your argument if the comparison is not there.
This is not about comparisons to the Nazis being taboo. It’s not about a flaw in your logic. It’s about how other people perceive your points based on what’s included and what’s easiest to focus on. If you want to educate someone, you need to ensure that they’re hearing the points that matter most, and, forgive me if I’m wrong, I don’t think your Nazi comparison is your most important point. Throwing out red meat only keeps the attention on that red meat. You can blame everyone else for pointing that out, or you can just stop throwing out the red meat and put the focus on the substance of your arguments. It’s entirely up to you.
Why would I not stay focused on it? It is the topic that both Ragnar and you chose to criticize as if it had no or little validity in the case against abortion? Why would you single it out other than to create a negative point of view as to its validity in its comparisons for those reading the debate? I remind those reading this that I believe the argument is valid.
The Nazi comparison seems to be a bias Ragnar, pro-choicers, and you hold against my argument, seeming almost like censorship to me. It seems taboo to bring what the Nazis did up in conjunction to abortion. Whether that is a true evaluation by me is perhaps another matter. According to you, it triggers pro-choicers from reading anything further once they come across it. They shut down the argument immediately at that point. Thus, they are not open but very narrow-minded on this subject. Why is that? Is it because the Reductio ad Hitlerum counter has been slung around like a propaganda tool? Although the point does not require the Nazis to be made known it is the one I used and I believe the Nazi comparison is valid and gives a very clear example of how language, laws, and culture can negatively affect the way people view particular groups of people. The Nazi example highlights something that is dreadfully wrong. Pro-lifers believe the killing of the unborn is dreadfully wrong also, yet the subject is continually glossed over and it always boils down to the woman's "right" to choose to kill her biological offspring used with bodily rights arguments as okay. So, the rights and value of the unborn are constantly diminished. The rights and values of the unborn are seldom mentioned in such debates by the pro-choice crowd except in a negative, harmful way to create a negative spin.
You say,
"So, when you ask, "Do you think we would be having this discussion now if I did not use such a morally repulsive example?", I agree. You're exactly right: we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, we might be discussing the validity of your argument about dehumanization and examining whether pro-choice language actually feeds into it."
You agree!
It seems like a roadblock pro-choicers have that bars them from evaluating the argument or immediately reacting biasedly to shut down the validity of the points. You commented without reading the full debate. One thing seems sure to me, you find the horror of what the Nazis did in taking innocent lives, yet no reaction to what pro-choicers are doing by taking innocent human lives. The thing that gets me is why do you think there is less validity to the Nazi examples in comparison with the pro-choice position in dehumanizing and devaluing human beings than other examples?
You said,
"I had thought you cared more about the substance of your argument rather than the comparison you're making."
So you think there is less substance in the argument once the unborn is mentioned in connection to the Nazis and what they did in creating a negative view of particular groups of human beings. Both examples point out it is wrong to kill innocent human beings because they are unwanted.
To be clear, I'm not providing my specific objections with the comparison here. If you want to discuss that, fine, but I want to finish this conversation first, so every attempt you're making to shift over to that discussion is only distracting from the matter at hand. And yet, you keep going back to your justifications for the comparison, which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with the point I'm making. I'm saying that it doesn't matter how justified the comparison is, it matters that the comparison automatically turns anyone who is pro-choice off to reading the rest of your argument. I'm saying that your efforts to educate pro-choice people are, thus, hampered by presenting this argument. It's a very simple point, yet you can't seem to stay focused on it.
"I am saying the arguments presented by pro-choicers are fundamentally dehumanizing. Not all human beings are being treated equally under the law. Not all human beings are looked upon with worth. Not all human beings are given the most basic of all human rights, the right to life. Language is used to shape the culture to a negative view of the unborn human being."
This point, the one I just quoted, doesn't require any comparison to the Nazis to be impactful. It provides the same message you're trying to go with throughout your argument. And, to be clear, this language isn't hiding anything - it's straightforward and direct. Yet the very next sentence you use delves into the comparison to Nazis again, as though that somehow makes the point stronger. All that comparison does is draw attention to the comparison. It doesn't help your point, it doesn't elevate your impacts, it does nothing to improve your argument. It's interesting that you talk about hiding the issue when the use of the Nazi comparison basically does just that: hide the actual argument behind a comparison that incites strong negative emotional responses.
So, when you ask, "Do you think we would be having this discussion now if I did not use such a morally repulsive example?", I agree. You're exactly right: we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, we might be discussing the validity of your argument about dehumanization and examining whether pro-choice language actually feeds into it. I've had lots of really strong, substantive discussions with people on this site and elsewhere regarding that very topic, and I'll say straight up that I think some aspects of that argument are valid. Of course, we're not having that discussion because, instead, we're talking about the "morally repulsive example" you've provided. So, great, you've incited response... to your example. I don't think that's what you wanted. Maybe it is, in which case, keep doing what you're doing. I had thought you cared more about the substance of your argument rather than the comparison you're making.
The issue at hand is the same regarding abortion and the Jews in one sense. Human beings in mass numbers are and were exterminated. The exploitation of such great numbers is also noted with other groups. American slavery, women, Rwanda, the Cultural Revolution, Soviet gulags and the Great Famine of 1921, North Korea, etc., as just some of the many examples that could have been used where language and laws cause(d) dehumanization and devaluation. But the Holocaust is perhaps the best-known example. Would the same moral outrage have been triggered to draw attention to the situation with those other examples? Should we use that moral outrage to draw attention to the plight? Is it the most effective tool to bring scrutiny and curiosity to this mare's nest? The reason many pro-lifers have this abortion debate is to draw attention to the wrong of what is happening. We believe the unborn are worth fighting for just like we believe these other groups were and are worth fighting for. So while the Nazis or Hitler are not required to make the point, they are perhaps the best-known example that could be cited.
You may disagree that it is an apt comparison but are your objections well-founded? Are your objections that other examples could have been equally effective founded - perhaps!
I am saying the arguments presented by pro-choicers are fundamentally dehumanizing. Not all human beings are being treated equally under the law. Not all human beings are looked upon with worth. Not all human beings are given the most basic of all human rights, the right to life. Language is used to shape the culture to a negative view of the unborn human being. Look at the Nazis to see what you are doing. Look at the numbers of aborted human beings. So, the Nazi example is used to say, don't let what happened with the Jews in Nazi Germany continue to happen to the unborn around the world. Let's stand up for justice. Let's not downplay what is going on here.
You continue to think, IMO, that comparing the plight of the unborn to the Nazis is not a good thing to do. How quickly will we forget history and do the same things over again? Do you think we would be having this discussion now if I did not use such a morally repulsive example? Do you think that pro-choicers would be aware of their devaluing and dehumanizing language if I tried to hide the issue more, or would the issue have been forgotten long ago with other examples? Do you think the argument would stick? So a jolt has been given, a reminder of what we are dealing with here - valuable, vulnerable human beings that need our mouth-piece to stop this atrocity.
Now, do you think the unborn are not human beings? Or if you think they are human beings then do you think they are being treated fairly and with equal justices as all innocent human beings deserve or should deserve? Do you think that some innocent human beings should not be treated with the same equality as others and then how is that just?
I don't think the comparison to Nazis is required in order to make the points you're trying to make about the moral pitfalls of the pro-choice position (and, to be clear once again, I disagree that it's an apt comparison, though I'll spend the rest of this assuming that it is). To you, it appears to be the most direct and resonating way to address the issue, and while it does accomplish that basic task, what you're actually pushing people to do is engage with this point rather than engage with the basic issue at play here. This is just my perspective, but why not just say that the argument presented by pro-choice people is fundamentally dehumanizing without comparing that dehumanization to the mindsets that were the impetuses for the Holocaust? Why employ the comparison at all? If your goal is to get more people to listen to you, why not go with the most basic and fundamental explanation of your argument: it is wrong to dehumanize and kill any subset of the population, the unborn are a subset of the population, ergo it is wrong to dehumanize and kill the unborn. You don't have to compare mindsets to the Nazis to make that argument stick, and it doesn't come with the swastika-labeled baggage that the Nazis bring with them.
The question is not whether I feel right but whether I am. Glad to hear you do not feel hurt by what I have said, and thank you for clarifying that here. Abortion is a divisive subject. What these debates seem to emphasize is the great divide between the two camps so it is "tasteless" in two ways, the beef by the pro-life camp is how the unborn human beings are treated and villainized. That is our bias against your pro-choice position.
I revert to justice and justification because I do not believe it is sufficiently addressed. It is important. Yes, I believe pro-choicer's talk around justice and apply it only to the one group, the woman, not the unborn. That is not right.
I get it, it detracts from my argument because pro-choice don't like to hear it, but is it wrong to point out such things if the comparison is true - dehumanizing language is used; the worth is diminished and unjust laws are passed?
It's honestly really baffling to me how you keep responding to my comments. I'm not talking about myself personally, though I do think it's tasteless (not hurtful - I've seen this kind of rhetoric enough that it has very little effect on me personally). I've also acknowledged, multiple times, that I'm biased in my perspective. I don't know why you feel the need to keep pointing that out when I've clearly stated as much. I'm talking about how other people perceive these kinds of arguments, and I'm informing some of how they might perceive it with how I perceive it. Maybe your thought is that how I perceive it is problematic, but I think that gets to the heart of my whole point here: if I'm perceiving it this way, how many other people are doing the same when they read through your argument? You seem to think that my comment is somehow what's damaging incisive scrutiny of your arguments, when in reality, it has a lot more to do with the content of those very arguments.
You keep on reverting, again and again, back to your justifications. It's what you do because you want to feel right in your perspective. That's fine, and if your goal here was just to be right and show how right you are, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I would simply disagree with you, and we'd part ways. It's when you talk about educating people that I take pause. And, much as you keep trying to address my point by addressing Ragnar's about Reductio ad Hitlerium, mine actually has very little to do with it. My point is that it distracts from your argument by drawing attention to it. You're likening the perspective of pro-choice people to Nazis because they are, as you've said multiple times now, using the same rhetoric to dehumanize subsets of the population. That argument, the choice that you're making to present it here, is actively working against you. And yes, people will see it as you essentially equating them to Nazis, largely because you're not employing much nuance in your argument and you're not making efforts to keep the two distinct in any other regard. That may not be your aim, but it's what people can see, will see, and have seen. It's not a risk. It's a certainty. And yes, I've seen pro-choice people use pretty awful language of the type your describing. I've got my issues with comparing it to Nazi rhetoric, but that, again, is a separate issue. If you want to have that debate, we can do it, but that's not the focus of this post or of any of the posts I've made on this debate.
And, just FYI, the red flag came up when we first discussed this privately via direct messaging (again, you might recall we had a really long discussion over this), and I've seen it come up on several debates since then. Seeing it repeated so many times made me feel the need to respond.