Instigator / Pro
4
1485
rating
91
debates
46.15%
won
Topic
#169

Resolved: The US should make vaccines mandatory

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

whiteflame
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
8,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
7
1724
rating
27
debates
88.89%
won
Description

--Topic--
Resolved: That the US should make vaccines mandatory

--Definitions--
Vaccinations: A biological preparation that improves immunity to a particular disease. A vaccine typically contains an agent that resembles a disease-causing microorganism, and is often made from weakened or killed forms of the microbe, its toxins or one of its surface proteins. The agent stimulates the body's immune system to recognize the agent as foreign, destroy it, and "remember" it, so that the immune system can more easily recognize and destroy any of these microorganisms that it later encounters.
For more info on vaccines see here http://www.who.int/topics/vaccines/en/
Mandatory: required by law or rules; compulsory.
Ought: indicates moral desirability

--Rules--
1. No forfeits
2. Citations must be provided in the text of the debate
3. No new arguments in the final speeches
4. Observe good sportsmanship and maintain a civil and decorous atmosphere
5. No trolling
6. No "kritiks" of the topic (challenging assumptions in the resolution)
7. For all undefined resolutional terms, individuals should use commonplace understandings that fit within the logical context of the resolution and this debate
8. The BOP is evenly shared
9. Rebuttals of new points raised in an adversary's immediately preceding speech may be permissible at the judges' discretion even in the final round (debaters may debate their appropriateness)
10. 8000 characters maximum
11. Violation of any of these rules, or of any of the description's set-up, merits a loss

--Structure--
R1. Pro's Case; Con's Case
R2. Pro generic Rebuttal; Con generic Rebuttal
R3. Pro generic Rebuttal; Con generic Rebuttal
R4. Pro generic Rebuttal and Summary; Con generic Rebuttal and Summary

== Additional Information ==
The vaccines schedule and vaccines that this debate is refering to are the vaccines recommended by the CDC. (see here https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/vaccines-age.html). Obviously those who are medically unable to receive vaccines will be exempt.

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@Tejretics

And I agree. I do, however, think there's an argument to be made about these restrictions being overly onerous. Protecting third parties from harm is not the overriding principle in all cases, since there are many actions or inactions that we largely agree should be allowed to persist despite the harms they cause to others. Whether that's true of vaccination is an open question, I'm just saying that the line isn't clearly drawn.

I'm not contesting the value of freedom in general, though. I'm just saying there are legitimate restrictions on the right to choice to protect third parties from harm.

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@Tejretics

Perhaps not the best way to explain it, but I meant to reemphasize the difference between the link story and the impact. Explaining why the loss of these freedoms is important requires linking it to some solid impacts, which I've always found somewhat difficult. I don't think it's hard to explain why certain freedoms should exist or why the government taking those liberties away steps on some toes, but that doesn't really get down into the nitty-gritty of why their loss is very damaging. The problem, as I see it, is that you either keep it nebulous and focus on why freedoms are important, or you peel away from the issue of freedoms and focus on reactions to their loss. I'm not really a fan of either approach, and I can't do the first one well at all.

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@whiteflame

"It’s much more about examining why this matters than it is about explaining why these freedoms should exist." I don't understand what this means.

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@Tejretics

That’s usually the response I bring, but it has limitations. The other side can just say that the same argument can be used to justify much vaster and more debilitating restrictions. If it’s justified to prevent individuals from harming others by potentially acquiring a given illness or set of illnesses, then you could use that same point to force people to wear masks, take antibiotics, sneeze into their elbows and generally stay home from work when they get sick. All of those would arguably have a much larger effect on disease burdens than mandatory immunizations, but we recognize that we cannot reasonably police such actions in everyday life, and it’s not just because of backlash. There’s an inherent value to our basic freedoms, particularly when they come at the cost of certain securities. Countries have built the backbone of their constitutions on recognizing that policing the actions of the people needs to be substantially limited based on certain criteria. We might disagree about what those criteria are and about how well they apply to these cases, but I don’t think we can disagree that there are many freedoms that should not be abridged just because there’s a security benefit that could result, no matter how substantial it might be. Admittedly, I think I’m doing a bad job of explaining why these freedoms matter, and particularly if we’re speaking outside of the context of a given country’s Constitution and history, these impacts may always be largely based on how different populations view the issue, but I don’t think the link is what’s at issue on this point. It’s much more about examining why this matters than it is about explaining why these freedoms should exist.

"Admittedly, the argument is somewhat difficult to counter, especially if you're going full bore and requiring everyone who can to get vaccinated."

Honestly, I didn't find the liberty argument compelling one bit. The really simple response seems to be the harm principle: it's completely okay to restrict liberty to prevent third party harm. If liberty were absolute, there's no argument against legalizing murder or assault. Clearly, we restrict liberty to protect public health all the time. I dunno if it's just me, but I thought it was a really weak argument.

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@David

I'd say my main problem with your case is that you didn't go hard enough. I get that there's a strong incentive to roll with a case that causes the least possible harm to liberty (I'll come back to that), but I feel like you either need to go full bore and argue that vaccinations need to be the main priority or else you just don't gain enough solvency. Despite what I said in this debate, I think the case can be made that we can either reach herd immunity with many of these diseases or get so close to herd immunity as to not matter. Trumping up the importance of essentially eradicating these diseases within the US is a lot stronger than stating that we're getting some minor improvements to childhood vaccination rates. The main barrier to making that kind of argument is the generally low level of harm caused by these diseases individually, and I think the main way to get around that is by talking about trends and the potential for much higher death tolls and other harms. But to do that in enough detail, you really need to focus on a specific vaccine or set of vaccines rather than hitting them all at once. Doing that made your case sound overly generalized, and the impacts didn't sound as solid. You really need those points to counter issues of side-effects, which are honestly not that huge given the potential scope of the problem with diseases like measles and pertussis (incidentally, I find that MMR and TDaP are the easiest to argue for on debates like this), particularly as they apply to the immunocompromised.

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@David

When it comes to tackling my case, I think the first thing you have to do is nip the liberty argument in the bud. Admittedly, the argument is somewhat difficult to counter, especially if you're going full bore and requiring everyone who can to get vaccinated, but I think I've come up with an effective response by simply stating that it's impossible to quantify, especially compared with a quantifiable loss of life and quality of life. I think also clarifying from the outset what makes an instance where loss of liberty is acceptable and why is important. You kind of did that later with the comparison to drunk driving, but I feel like the link was tenuous. I’ve gone with traffic laws, the allowance of drug tests, and taxation in general, all of which reflect a shared responsibility that overrides personal liberties for the common good. All of this does a pretty good job at least introducing doubt into the liberty argument, and provides a basis for supporting a policy that may seem severe and a huge step beyond what’s been done before. All of this is also somewhat necessary to counter the backlash point, because a lot of the liberty argument is building up an important link story: that the negative response is justified and righteous. Challenging that underlying assumption knocks at the backlash point by allowing you to say that these are just a bunch of people who are too self-interested to see the basic facts of how they’re harming others, and that their threats of retaliation are no better than retaliating against any supposedly oppressive laws that are there for a basic public good. Admittedly, there’s the medical aspect to it, but I’ve found that that’s easy enough to get around by just fining anyone who is actively afraid of or otherwise unwilling to get vaccinated. Fines go to medical subsidies and therefore improve access to medical care. Sure, there will still be some backlash, but this doesn’t force anyone to get vaccinated just because they see their doctor.

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@David

Lastly, on the lack of a case, your best bet would have been to present something in R1, but lacking that, I think there were some available outs in R2 and R3, though all of them would have required that you stick by generally making vaccination mandatory. You could have argued that the same system currently used in schools (i.e. doctors notes) could be used by the government to monitor vaccinations, and that updates on vaccinations would be required at the usual times (e.g. tetanus after 10 years). That would have knocked out my point about enforcement, as the only thing remaining would have been which agency would be in charge, which really doesn’t have any weight to it. You could have argued that the fine I mentioned above was obvious enough that it should have been assumed, meaning that dissenters won’t get jailed to nearly the extent I’m suggesting, and those that do get imprisoned for failing to pay the fine deserve it for willingly putting others at great risk. That just leaves the “who pays?” argument, and I think you could have argued that there are enough governmental and non-governmental organizations that would step up to help with this, particularly as it’s such a huge public good, which means most of the poor would be covered through subsidies from one source or another. It would have been better to simply state that the government was covering everything from the outset, but that requires it be stated in R1.

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@whiteflame

Sure definitely!!

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@David

Realized I never offered this, but as I said, I’m actually solidly for your side in this resolution, and I’d be happy to discuss what you could have improved, both in your case and your responses.

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@Tejretics

Me to! I'd hate to see a good debate go tied

I'm so glad that this got voted on.

Sorry I couldn't vote.

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@bsh1

Thanks a lot for the vote and the feedback! I had a plan for how to capitalize on the liberty impacts, though honestly, I still struggle with weighing more philosophical arguments like these.

OMG. So many spelling errors. Gonna delete and fix and repost.

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@bsh1

Thanks for the vote and feedback!!

Is the resolution for childhood vaccines only? It's worded broadly and would seem to encompass adult vaccines as well (e.g. annual flu vaccine).

If vaccines should be mandatory, what should the punishment for not having one be?

I'm okay with some vaccines, but not ones that contain unborn baby parts.

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@David

If that helps you, I would accept that. I would completely understand.

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@whiteflame

If you want we can make this a 3 round debate and just waive the fourth round

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@David

You have my condolences. I'm very sorry to hear about that. I wish you the best in your time of mourning.

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@whiteflame

My grandfather passed away this evening. I will try to get my arguments in on time.

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@David

Alright.

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@whiteflame

please wait till sunday to post response if you can

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@David

It is certainly difficult at first, though I have to admit, those are the most rewarding instances. With a few exceptions, I've garnered the most from trying to understand the other side on topics that I feel very strongly about. I learn quite a bit from the experience. Strange thing, though, is that I can usually find a solid repository of arguments for that side. Most of the sites I've looked at on the topic have made pretty awful arguments, so I had to mostly derive my own.

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@whiteflame

I respect that. It can be difficult playing devil’s advocate especially when you’re passionate about the topic

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@Death23

Agreed. I think this is a fascinating debate. I'm actually taking devil's advocate for this one because I'm solidly on the "Pro" side of this debate, but I do feel there's a lot of good ground to cover on my side.

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@Death23

Thank you!!

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@David
@whiteflame

great topic! sounds like parents' rights vs the best interests of children. look forward to the arguments

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@whiteflame

Will post after work. Thanks

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@David

You can post your argument any time.