Instigator / Pro
4
1492
rating
333
debates
40.69%
won
Topic
#2229
Holidays are commercialized religions with greater push.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
Intelligence_06
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
7
1731
rating
167
debates
73.05%
won
Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
Holidays are pushed with merchandise via retailers, media outlets and of course more imposed on folks like proselytization.
Absolutely greater than religion as there is the push of holiday decorations. It's truly the dollar bill that makes it that way and it's all around us. I mean all around us by season.
For denial of this, step up to the plate, argue otherwise but 4 strikes and your out.
Send your questions by comment or message for clarity of anything.
Round 1
Con
#2
Holidays are NOT commercialized religions with greater push: It is not even a religion.
Definition of religion: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
Definition of Holiday: a day on which one is exempt from work
You see, Although Holidays could be a part of a religion, it is not a religion itself, let alone commercialized and pushed for the greater good. Holidays does not have these:
These are all a part of religions. Holidays have none of those. Holidays are not religions, let alone religions with modifiers. Are beer bottles cars that transport liquids? No. It is not a car, so regardless if it transports liquids or not, it is NOT.
Case closed. Vote CON.
- An actual deity(No, money is not a deity, and holidays have no deities of its own)
- Believers(Even if people crave holidays, they don’t treat holidays as a belief/religion)
- A belief(What even?)
- Materials and scriptures, etc(No. At most indirect.)
Round 2
Pro
#3
I'm not sure of where you came up with your definitions but let's see if they hold up.
"Definition of religion: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices"
I see the words "beliefs" and "practices".
Let me ask, how do folks "practice" the Christmas "holiday" celebration?
Is it with ceremonies based on "belief" systems?
I don't "Believe" in celebrating Christmas and you do . I don't "believe" in Santa Claus, but people do, are these not beliefs?
Religion is a belief system. To celebrate a holiday, you have to "believe" in doing so.
"Definition of Holiday: a day on which one is exempt from work"
So does a holiday not exist if I'm unemployed, never work or my company gives no exemption?
"You see, Although Holidays could be a part of a religion, it is not a religion itself, let alone commercialized and pushed for the greater good. Holidays does not have these:
An actual deity(No, money is not a deity, and holidays have no deities of its own)
Believers(Even if people crave holidays, they don’t treat holidays as a belief/religion)
A belief(What even?)
Materials and scriptures, etc(No. At most indirect.)"
Does Buddhism , Laveyan Satanism, Jainism, Hinduism have a belief in a deity?
People believe in giving thanks one day out of the year, I don't. I don't practice that belief system. People believe in making new year resolutions. I don't believe in practicing that way of life.
These holiday belief systems are pushed far greater as someone is more likely to say to you "Merry Christmas" than say "praise Allah, Shalom or As-Salaam-Alaikum".
It's assumed or expected that I also believe in celebrating the holiday.
Do you think I'm going to walk up to you and ask "are you coming to Passover?" You're a stranger, you could be an atheist. I don't know what you celebrate, so why am I saying for you to have a good time celebrating a specific thing, let alone anything?
Holidays are made up of practices and beliefs I don't practice or believe in. I don't believe in all the decorating, buying things to put under a tree, putting up lights. Step back and see what these things amount to.
It's all commercialized of course as it facilitates these practices that people believe in practicing.
Holidays are important to many .
Upon looking up the word "religion" on Google, you'll find the definition : a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance .
Con
#4
I apologize for not delivering my message clearly enough. I will do so again.
I recite my definitions, and any scheme of change in definition by Pro will be counted as moving the goalpost consider Pro voluntarily waived R1, causing me to define the terms.
Definition of religion: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practicesDefinition of Holiday: a day on which one is exempt from work
Remember, as long as I disprove that holidays are religions, I, as Opp, wins. Pro needs to justify that not only holidays are religions, they are also fundamentally commercialized and are with the purpose of pushing for the great. Remember: Pro mentioned no resolution in the description nor in the arguments. That leaves even the most basic and crucial BoP structure to Opp. In that case, the BoP is on Pro consider he made that claim and Opp is here to disprove him.
Argument: Still not a religion
Religions are organized belief systems, especially those that believe in supernatural forces/beings. Yes. Jainism and other forms of Indian religion may not believe in direct deities, but they believe in supernatural forces, such as Karma. On the contrary, those organized systems of beliefs that deny the existence of supernatural beings and/or forces do not classify as religions. One non-example of religion is Juche: Organized, but still atheist.
So we'd rule out one thing: Only organized systems of beliefs can be eligible for religions. Everything else, like Betelgeuse star or Beer bottles, are not religions because they are not organized sets of beliefs.
Holidays can be a foundation to religious practices: For example, Yom Kippur is a holiday in which Jewish people practice religious abstinence. However, as I said, all religions are organized sets of beliefs, whereas holidays are merely days, which are 24-hour rotational periods that aren't organized sets of beliefs. To say the difference between the two? Yes. One is a time-determined construct(holidays) whereas the other one is not(religions). If you can't tell the difference between a holiday and a religion, then you probably need some help.
I put Wiki on all because these should be common sense by now and if you are confused read it.
I have proved that holidays are different from religions and holidays, which are days, are not religions.
Rebuttals
Only remarkable ones will be refuted.
Let me ask, how do folks "practice" the Christmas "holiday" celebration?Is it with ceremonies based on "belief" systems?I don't "Believe" in celebrating Christmas and you do . I don't "believe" in Santa Claus, but people do, are these not beliefs?Religion is a belief system. To celebrate a holiday, you have to "believe" in doing so.
Saying so is like saying Baptism is an individual belief system. My opponent just proved my point: Holidays can serve other holidays, whereas holidays are not individual belief systems themselves.
So does a holiday not exist if I'm unemployed, never work or my company gives no exemption?
No. So does religion not exist if you're atheist and will not convert to them? No. the Law determines that and everyone else just doesn't go to work as you do in those days. Holidays, even as a social construct, is objective within an independent social unit, especially a country.
Holidays are a part of other belief systems whereas they aren't independently. I am done here and please vote Con.
Round 3
Pro
#5
"Religions are organized belief systems, especially those that believe in supernatural forces/beings. Yes. Jainism and other forms of Indian religion may not believe in direct deities, but they believe in supernatural forces, such as Karma. On the contrary, those organized systems of beliefs that deny the existence of supernatural beings and/or forces do not classify as religions. One non-example of religion is Juche: Organized, but still atheist."
Yes these religions don't always believe in a deity , supernatural entity of any kind. Like I can be a Buddhist or Hindu and my only belief about the afterlife is reincarnation. One thing you ought to know about religion is that it's "democratic" meaning up to each and every individual how they define, practice their religion.
Again, the Laveyan Satanists are those of a legitimate religion. But are pure atheists. Religions are belief systems. Those beliefs can be anything regarding tenets to live by. It's like a way of life such as holiday celebration, festivities and sport watching.
"So we'd rule out one thing: Only organized systems of beliefs can be eligible for religions. Everything else, like Betelgeuse star or Beer bottles, are not religions because they are not organized sets of beliefs."
So as long as people organize a set of beliefs in regards to a holiday celebration, that holiday is their religion. The world of commerce facilitates this organization of beliefs. When the season arrives, almost everywhere, including the workplace pushes the festivities in celebration of the holiday. This is imposed as if I welcome this as a part of my lifestyle. Speaking from experience, this is entirely true.
Every time I'm greeted with "Merry" this, "Happy" that, is the equivalent of somebody saying "praise the Lord" to the atheist.
"Holidays can be a foundation to religious practices: For example, Yom Kippur is a holiday in which Jewish people practice religious abstinence. However, as I said, all religions are organized sets of beliefs, whereas holidays are merely days, which are 24-hour rotational periods that aren't organized sets of beliefs. To say the difference between the two? Yes. One is a time-determined construct(holidays) whereas the other one is not(religions). If you can't tell the difference between a holiday and a religion, then you probably need some help."
Doesn't matter the foundation of a holiday. All you have to keep in mind is the belief system in place. Simply put, holiday celebration is for what some people believe in practicing. I can believe in practicing something one day a year or every day.
"Saying so is like saying Baptism is an individual belief system. My opponent just proved my point: Holidays can serve other holidays, whereas holidays are not individual belief systems themselves."
Wait, are you saying people don't believe in the Baptism?
I use to believe in the celebration of Christmas. Are you saying my belief never existed?
"No. So does religion not exist if you're atheist and will not convert to them? No. the Law determines that and everyone else just doesn't go to work as you do in those days. Holidays, even as a social construct, is objective within an independent social unit, especially a country."
Well now that was your definition you gave. See my question made that definition ridiculous. A holiday don't have a thing to do with somebody's job. Somebody will work on a holiday while somebody is at a family's house preparing the annual holiday dinner table.
"Holidays are a part of other belief systems whereas they aren't independently. "
What does this mean? That holidays are a part or fragment of a belief, is that so?
Well there you go. Being part or included in a religion is still religious content. It's just in this case, it's heavily commercialized. For every merchant sale or bargain is advantageously placed for the consumer as it is conducive for their holiday practice.
Con
#6
Rebuttals
Yes these religions don't always believe in a deity , supernatural entity of any kind. Like I can be a Buddhist or Hindu and my only belief about the afterlife is reincarnation. One thing you ought to know about religion is that it's "democratic" meaning up to each and every individual how they define, practice their religion.Again, the Laveyan Satanists are those of a legitimate religion. But are pure atheists. Religions are belief systems. Those beliefs can be anything regarding tenets to live by. It's like a way of life such as holiday celebration, festivities and sport watching.
Atheism is not a religion consider it is complete non-belief, disbelief, etc. I have a whole big proof that probably does not fit here written in this link. Either way, not every belief system can be categorized as a religion, and saying atheism and pure democratism are religions are like saying anarchy is a form of government. Lack of religious(sacred) ideas would make said belief system NOT a religion, and because of that communism, atheism, Dengism, etc... incorporates zero needed religious ideas, they are still not religions.
Atheism and communism are still belief systems, but holidays are merely practices for any religion. Holidays are merely dependent on belief systems, whereas they aren't independent as one.
So as long as people organize a set of beliefs in regards to a holiday celebration, that holiday is their religion. The world of commerce facilitates this organization of beliefs. When the season arrives, almost everywhere, including the workplace pushes the festivities in celebration of the holiday. This is imposed as if I welcome this as a part of my lifestyle. Speaking from experience, this is entirely true.
The truth is:
- Holidays are merely segments of time and are merely vehicles for religious practices. If my car is carrying Red Bull Drinks that does not mean Red Bull Drinks power my car. No, it doesn't. It is what people do in the time period to make said holidays to be religious, but no holiday is fundamentally religious, let alone to be their own belief systems.
- Only what people do determines whether religious practices will be done on this day or not. If I tell them Christmas celebration is prohibited on Dec. 25, then they will probably still find happiness celebrating in Dec. 24. Days are just markers to tell them when to celebrate an annual celebration. In fact, if a year is only 7 months, they can probably still do so every 7 months. It is what people do determines whether a holiday is religious or not, not the day itself.
- Since Days are not fundamentally religious, they cannot be individual religions. Religions are 100% religious and there is yet an explanation that 100% of holidays are religious. Many holidays overall have no religious affiliations.
Doesn't matter the foundation of a holiday. All you have to keep in mind is the belief system in place. Simply put, holiday celebration is for what some people believe in practicing. I can believe in practicing something one day a year or every day.
Exactly. Holidays are dependent on belief systems instead of being independent.
Wait, are you saying people don't believe in the Baptism?
First, Baptism as a belief is dependent on Christianity: It is merely a branch of Christianity.
Second, ALWAYS read the link. The link said the religious practice, not the denomination.
Third, not everything related to religion is its individual religion. Then you might call every single religious practice as well as books of Bible their own individual religious system. They are not. Only complete systems are considered actual religions. You don't even call catholicism an actual religion because it is not an individual complete system.
What does this mean? That holidays are a part or fragment of a belief, is that so?Well there you go. Being part or included in a religion is still religious content. It's just in this case, it's heavily commercialized. For every merchant sale or bargain is advantageously placed for the consumer as it is conducive for their holiday practice.
Saying this is like saying car advertisements are cars. That is generally not true. I don't care if it is commercialized or not, but if it is not a religion, then it is not.
Conclusions
- I shall make conclusions
- Pro has conceded that holidays are a part of religion
- However, only complete individual belief systems that believe in sacred beings/forces can count as an actual religion
- Holidays are not complete individual belief systems, they are just vehicles for religious practices/celebrations
- Thus, holidays are actually not religions.
Round 4
Pro
#7
"Atheism is not a religion consider it is complete non-belief, disbelief, etc. I have a whole big proof that probably does not fit here written in this link. Either way, not every belief system can be categorized as a religion, and saying atheism and pure democratism are religions are like saying anarchy is a form of government. Lack of religious(sacred) ideas would make said belief system NOT a religion, and because of that communism, atheism, Dengism, etc... incorporates zero needed religious ideas, they are still not religions."
You're misunderstanding big time. The only point I made about atheists is the non-theistic religion of Laveyan Satanism. That's a religion that involves atheists.
When I use the word "democratic", I simply meant as explained, the individual significance of religion. What the religion entails and encompasses to the person whether it's one belief or many. The person decides to believe in a deity or not. They can choose to believe in everything but a deity.
You say consider atheism a non-belief and then say it is one here :
"Atheism and communism are still belief systems"
So consideration is pointless. It's all how you define it. You can say an atheist believes there's no God or has no belief in God. Either way, this is neither here nor there .
"but holidays are merely practices for any religion. "
Doesn't a religion have practices to actively practice it? Are those practices religious?
A holiday celebration is a practice for a religion, therefore a religious practice, is that so?
"Holidays are merely dependent on belief systems, whereas they aren't independent as one."
So you're saying holiday observation is not somebody can have a belief or dogma in doing.
Remember what I said about democratic. Are you telling me, I didn't have an entire "belief system" founded upon a holiday observance ever? This was my practice, my way of life, my ceremony in which I allotted supreme importance to.
"Holidays are merely segments of time and are merely vehicles for religious practices. If my car is carrying Red Bull Drinks that does not mean Red Bull Drinks power my car. No, it doesn't. It is what people do in the time period to make said holidays to be religious, but no holiday is fundamentally religious, let alone to be their own belief systems."
The point is, you can't dictate what holidays mean to people. Holidays that are celebrated in any amount of time is irrelevant. Certain religious festivities observed at certain times does not make them non-religious. If holidays are important to people to the level like any religion, if a person believes in doing things, spending pass times in practices associated with holiday observance, it is their religion. Feasts, decorations , gifts, expressing thanks, ceremonial participation as well as ideologies behind these observances exist. Many of the historical observances particularly involving government stem out of ideologies.
This is what the commerce world banks on to be able to commercialize this. This isn't happening as a nice gesture. An excellent profit strategy to capitalize on people's spending to support their important customs.
"Only what people do determines whether religious practices will be done on this day or not. If I tell them Christmas celebration is prohibited on Dec. 25, then they will probably still find happiness celebrating in Dec. 24. Days are just markers to tell them when to celebrate an annual celebration. In fact, if a year is only 7 months, they can probably still do so every 7 months. It is what people do determines whether a holiday is religious or not, not the day itself."
Bravo, there you go. It's what people or an individual personally does. It's democratic, not dictatorial in that they elect so to to speak for themselves, they govern practices according to their beliefs. That's regardless of the derivative whether religious or socially. You'll find more and more, this has little to do if not at all with science.
"It is what people do determines whether a holiday is religious or not, not the day itself."
What people do is not necessarily something I believe in. This is more so true when it comes to a subject based on a personal dogma connected to/mix with fairy tale, possible pagan observance.
For instance, Halloween and Easter. The practices of these holiday participations I don't believe in practicing for myself or let's say my children to take part in.
A lot of this is part dogmatic, folkloric mixing of religious subtext perpetuated as a practice, pushed prevalently. In outlet stores, the workplace, other places of business, virtually everywhere. Then you'll see municipal participation with the shutting down of traffic routes, city blocks all in name of what people believe in practicing and or observing.
"Since Days are not fundamentally religious, they cannot be individual religions. Religions are 100% religious and there is yet an explanation that 100% of holidays are religious. Many holidays overall have no religious affiliations. "
Both days and religions are whatever one makes them. Remember what you said. "It is what people do that determines whether a holiday is religious or not, not the day itself ". So whatever day or time somebody is doing something, that's a personal choice and belief. Religion is having a belief or faith and a belief or faith is having a religion. Whatever that faith is, is what it means to the person that holds it. Particularly an assigned importance to something, sometimes forming an idol.
"Exactly. Holidays are dependent on belief systems instead of being independent."
Doesn't matter the foundation of a holiday. All you have to keep in mind is the belief system in place. Simply put, holiday celebration is for what some people believe in practicing. I can believe in practicing something one day a year or every day.
Yes that it is exact as that's how religion works. All we have to do is observe the world around us.
"First, Baptism as a belief is dependent on Christianity: It is merely a branch of Christianity."
But there is a legitimate religion that people join . Those that join call themselves "Baptists" specifically. Now why is that? What is with the title differentation between being called Christian and Baptist? See there's a great deal in research here in observation alone.
It goes back to that "democratic" point.
"Second, ALWAYS read the link. The link said the religious practice, not the denomination."
It's all religion when you get down to it. It doesn't pay to split hairs here.
"Third, not everything related to religion is its individual religion. Then you might call every single religious practice as well as books of Bible their own individual religious system. They are not. Only complete systems are considered actual religions. You don't even call catholicism an actual religion because it is not an individual complete system. "
This is based on how YOU in particular define religion. As I've said , it's totally democratic. It's totally up to me on what I choose to believe or how much to believe. I can start a cult/religion right now just involving one thing. The idol involved could be a tree.
"Saying this is like saying car advertisements are cars. That is generally not true. I don't care if it is commercialized or not, but if it is not a religion, then it is not."
Saying you don't care is not a justification for excusing yourself from refuting the part involving commercialization. You forfeit that part of the debate when you present no ARGUMENT against it. You take on the whole topic when accepting the debate challenge. You disagreeing with part of the topic is incomplete.
Is a holiday a religious advertisement? I'm not following your premise not one iota of it. You say generally so there are exceptions then. With exceptions, it makes the topic statement true.
Any holiday celebration that's regarded as a religion to people is a religion. Just like a judge may want to regard the law book as a Bible. It's about the value in something that makes it what it is to people. Works the same way with a value for material things or inanimate objects. These things can be lifted up by people as being their god.
"Pro has conceded that holidays are a part of religion"
You have conceded that holidays and religion are not strictly separate but now you're saying holidays are religious. They're not totally separate.That is the first step in the right direction.
"However, only complete individual belief systems that believe in sacred beings/forces can count as an actual religion"
Only the individual can dictate what their religion is, what it means and what their beliefs are. Religion is simply having a belief or faith. The Laveyan Satanists, Buddhists don't require belief in any forces other than philosophical principle, metaphoric ones to be their own religion. One person dictated a religion for himself in 1960s and many agreed with Mr. Lavey.
No requirement in the belief of supernatural forces to have religion as these religions mentioned don't.
Just using one dictionary source is hindering your path to truth. Look at things as a collective to deduce what they ultimately mean. With a variety of definitions , what is the common denominator?
Belief.
Now I had a complete system of beliefs regarding the Christmas celebration. I'd say it was tied to sacred writings and text of which is mostly found in history books.
Upon using the Google search engine, you'll find the definition to religion which is the pursuit of interest to where supreme importance is put to. The Christmas celebration was definitely that for me. No doubt it's that for many. That's how commercialization prospers in the manner of capitalizing on that interest pursuit made so significant.
"Holidays are not complete individual belief systems, they are just vehicles for religious practices/celebrations
Thus, holidays are actually not religions."
Says you , not say the people that practice a holiday as such. You're unable to deny my former belief system in the holiday celebrations.
Holidays are religious. Holidays are part of a religion. Anything that has to do with religion concerns a belief. A belief is a religion. A belief in a holiday is a religion.
Con
#8
Rebuttal: LaVeyan Satanism
My opponent has repeatedly pushed the burden on me for this. I am tired of it. Why am I doing it in the final round? I don't know. This point doesn't even matter. Holidays aren't religions whatsoever.
LaVeyan Satanism actually believes in supernatural forces[1][2], and that satisfies my criteria for a religion that my opponent likely agreed on consider this is the only counterexample my opponent has given in opposition. LaVeyan Satanism believes that we are the true Satan and we control it, thus believing in no external deities, which would in turn mean non-theist. Yes. LaVeyan Satanism is non-theist. Yes. LaVeyan Satanism believes in sacred powers(In that we control ourselves).
Either way, my opponent has not sufficiently proved that holidays are religions.
Conclusion
- Con's position is that holidays are not commercialized religions with greater push.
- Con takes this position due to that it is not possible to prove holidays are religions within regular viable logic.
- Holidays are days off work. My opponent agrees.
- Religions are complete, organized belief systems that believe in supernatural powers/forces. My opponent likely agrees on that as well. Either way, if it is not a complete, organized belief system, it isn't a religion.
- Holidays are not complete, organized belief systems. That is basic common knowledge and common sense.
- It is not the units of time in holidays that dictate whether this holiday is religious or not. It is what people do on the date that determines if it is religious or not. The state of religion has nothing to do with the holidays themselves.
- Holidays are vehicles for religious behavior. Holidays make up the foundation of religion. Although holidays are related to religion, they aren't themselves.
- I have proven that holidays are not religions.
- Pro has not proven that holidays push for the great, so if I said nothing and Pro said those before, he still fails to meet his BoP.
- Vote Con.
Sources
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
This was a landslide win. Con consistently reminded us of the fact that the BoP was on Pro. Disregarding everything else for a second, Pro has to prove that holidays are religions, that they are commercialized, and that they have a greater push than non-commercial religions. As far as I read, Pro never even touched upon the "greater push" part of the resolution, as pointed out by Con, which by itself automatically gives the win to Con. Pro barely touched on the commercialization as well.
As far as the religion part, Con repeatedly showed that holidays are dependent on religions/belief systems but cannot independently be one themselves. Pro's only counter was that religion is democratic and can mean anything but failed to disprove Con's claim that holidays are dependent on belief systems.
Therefore, I'm giving arguments to Con. None of the other vote options were important here.
Thanks that's the goal. Every last one of us should have improvement. If you're not better than what you were before even when you're already fantastic, something's wrong. So that's the whole point
Glanced at your first couple rounds, and I'll outright say nice improvement!
**************************************************
>Reported Vote: seldiora // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: 0:5; 5 points to CON.
>Reason for Decision: I'm not seeing "commercialized" anywhere in pro's argument. Con was the only one who used sources.
>Reason for Mod Action:
This vote was two sentences. In other words, WAY too vague.
This can be avoided in future by just commenting on the core contention (and the main counterpoint or the lack thereof), listing a single source you found important (if voting sources), saying what conduct violation distracted you (if voting conduct)... You need not write a thesis but some minimal level of detail is required to verify knowledge of what you're grading.
Yeah, holidays are religions. Beer bottles are cars. You should vote Con.