Resolved: A trans person is the gender they identify of
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 2 votes and with 8 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
To fully layout the actual resolution:
"Resolved: A trans person is the gender they identify of"
Theweakeredge: Instigator (Pro)
Juice: Contender (Con)
Definitions:
Transgender - "An adjective that is an umbrella term used to describe the full range of people whose gender identity and/or gender roles do not conform to what is typically associated with their sex assigned at birth. While the term“transgender” is commonly accepted, not all TGNC people self‐identify as transgender."
Gender - "refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations constitute gender non-conformity."
Sex - "refers to a person’s biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia"
Juice has been wanting this debate, let's do this, to a good debate!
“everybody has the right to choose their own gender, by listening to their own hearts and mind, everyone gets to choose whether they are a boy or a girl or neither or something else”.
Pros Claim: Sex is biological, and gender is in the mind
“[Sex is] the chromosomal, gonadal and anatomical characteristics associated with biological sex while [gender is] apart of a person’s personal and social identity. It refers to the way a person feels, presents and is recognised in the community”
“you have undergone “sex affirmation” surgery. The law defines this as a surgical procedure involving the alteration of a person’s reproductive organs carried out for the purpose of assisting the person to be considered to be a member of the opposite sex”
Con's Claim: gender is in the mind and therefore I have the ability to change my gender as many times as I please,
Saying “I want to be a pilot” 1,000 times is easy, becoming one is hard. Changing your gender thousands of times is harder than you think and using it as a concern is absurd. If one’s gender is constant: only inconsistent with the sex, then it is unrealistic for him to change more than 2 times.
why would people want to regress into Kangaroos? People wouldn't want to do that? They would lose functionality in using tools, intelligence, and a complete sense of self. This is not a good argument.
Pro's claim: intersex people exist, proving that male and female are NOT the only standards sex is applied too
Gender is purely in the mind and is a social construct
Gender and sex are in fact the same.
“There’s nothing which I have found that would allow you to compare two brain images and say, ‘well that’s a man and that’s a woman’. It’s not physically possible tosay there is a male or female brain"
“There’s really nothing about the brain at birth that tells us boys and girls are destined to be psychologically different,” Dr Eliot said
commonly refers to when someone (typically with white skin) paints their face darker to resemble a black person. [12]
- “In society, the phrase “men are not women” is now considered a discriminatory phrase. The New York Post [1] [2] reports that pre-school teachers in Brooklyn are forced to teach, according to their curriculum that
- “Everybody has the right to choose their own gender, by listening to their own hearts and mind, everyone gets to choose whether they are a boy or a girl or neither or something else”.”
- “This is what 5-year-olds, with their malleable and unexperienced little minds are learning at a time where they are figuring out their own identity and the people around them. This is a rapidly growing issue being promoted by the government and it needs to be stopped. The only way is the confront this ideology head on.”
- “Thankfully , this is not too difficult, as I know that men are not women. How do I know this? Because of biology and common sense. If men were women then the term men and women would just be blank names, conveniently interchangeable like a pair of socks. To suggest that women can be men takes away the value of being either and proposes that gender is just like a costume, something that can be changed. If men were women, then the term might as well not exist.”
- “Pros Claim: Sex is biological, and gender is in the mind”
- “Trans ideologist are very keen to point at the dictionary and WHO to confirm that gender and sex are different.”
- “The term gender identity was first coined by sexologist John Money [3], who introduced the term in 1955 (It is worth noting that recent academic studies disapprove of Money’s work in many respects, particularly his involvement with the involuntary sex-reassignment of then child, David Reimer)”
1. Gender - "refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations constitute gender non-conformity."2. Sex - "refers to a person’s biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia"
- “First off, if gender is just something which occurs in the mind, and your gender disagrees with your sex, then why can’t you just change your mind? Surely that would be more logical to change your mind, instead of going through intense surgery and pumping yourself with hormones”
- making gender a thing of the mind is dangerous, as this would mean that it is only restricted by the capacity of your brain. In other words, I can change my gender as quickly as my brain can process information, and as many times as I please.
- “However, one may reply with ‘you can’t just change your gender like that, it’s more than just a feeling, it’s something to do with your brain, it’s been with me since a young age’, and then proceed to pointing to the grey matter in a series of MRI scans. There’s a flaw with this reasoning, because if trans ideologist are pointing to brain scans to confirm the existence of gender, then gender must be biological, therefore shattering the difference between gender and sex.“
- “Either A) gender is in the mind and therefore I have the ability to change my gender as many times as I please, or B) gender is biological, removing my ability to change my gender as many times as I please.”
- “Without this distinction between sex and gender, a large number of trans ideologists arguments instantly go out the window. One such is the argument that “We are just changing our sex to match our gender”, which solely relies and this weak distinction”
- “Upon allowing individuals to pick and choose their own gender, the question of what exactly it take for someone to identify as the opposite sex arises”
- “Under the subtitle “How to change the gender on your birth certificate” the criteria to change your gender on your birth certificate”
- “Clearly, they believe that biology has some influence on gender, as they go to great extents to mimic their chosen gender.”
- “The whole argument is circular logic. I believe that I know what it feels like to be a women because I feel like a women so therefore, I am a women. It’s a fallacy”
- “How can a man know that they are a woman?”
- “As I have stated, having anything which is restricted purely by the mind is dangerous. It means that peoples wildest imaginations are now real. “
- First Rebuttal
- “To this, I introduce you to Naia Okami, the quotee of the iconic line "on all levels except physical, I am a wolf" [8]. I could name a countless number of furies who wish they were a different animal.”
- “Now, I throw the ball back to you. Since you believe there are no physical characteristics which define a man, what do you believe defines a man. In fact, using your logic, what do you believe defines a human being. What makes a human a human. My answer would be a generalisation of physical appearance, without needing to pin down one exact organ. What would yours be?”
- “Gender is purely in the mind and is a social construct”
- Gender and sex are in fact the same.
- “ Theoretically, if you were to raise a boy like a girl, they would identify themselves as a girl. “
- “Now, according a trans ideologists, if Sujit, caught up in his own belief that he was a chicken, somehow communicated to surgeons that he wanted to undergo surgery, not only would that be a human right, but he literally become a chicken. “
- A syllogism is a formatted deductive argument, where each idea draws from the last to lead to a conclusion that logically follows.
- Whenever your premises lead to a conclusion that is the only logical conclusion one can draw from such premises, that argument is valid.
- Whenever each premise is factually correct as well as valid, the argument is sound.
- P1: Gender and Sex are two different words that refer to different things
- P2: One’s gender is able to not be the same as the sex they are assigned at birth
- P3: If P1, P2, then transgenderism
- Con: Therefore, transgenderism is true
- Recall; The definition of Gender - from the description
- The definition itself makes a distinction between sex and gender, and seeing as how Pro has not provided any valid definitions, the Voters should prefer Con’s definition’s inherently.
- “The APA Commission on Accreditation (APA-CoA) is recognized by both the secretary of the U.S. Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation, as the national accrediting authority for professional education and training in psychology.”
- A simple argument from Neuroanatomy - the observations of the way the brain works and the structure of that same brain is more similar between individuals who share the same gender identity than between those that share the biological features of sex [x]
- “The fact that these differences extend beyond brain areas and circuits classically associated with sexual and endocrine functions raise the possibility that transsexuality is also associated with changes in cerebral networks involved in self-perception.”
- The levels of specific hormones within the brain/body, especially in early development, are what primarily affect how people’s sex phenotypes. [x] [y]
- However, research has shown that these chemicals are not what impact someone’s gender identity. In essence - Physical evidence that gender doesn’t equal sex
- The study I cite says the following: “particularly ..but relatively minimal effects on gender identity.”
Full forfeiture...
That said, con had a great opening with the table of contents and all that; if somewhat long winded. The bigger problem here was trying too hard to preempt every argument pro might make, and apparently while doing so going against his pre-stated argument path (misrepresenting him as wanting the WHO definitions, when apparently they had discussed different definitions and the description already clarifies what standard shall be used).
Pro's case is comparatively simple and is never challenged:
"P1: Gender and Sex are two different words that refer to different things
P2: One’s gender is able to not be the same as the sex they are assigned at birth
P3: If P1, P2, then transgenderism
Con: Therefore, transgenderism is true"
Via the pre-agreed definition they are indeed different things. If going against the biological assignment is moral, is at best a side issue from if it is valid. Still, con gets some credit for arguing so well against the inevitable outcome.
It's a full forfeit on Juice's part, votes?
What the heck man
Relatable.
One of your sections is based on the definition of transgender, the sources they come from, the history of such, and who it is logically fallacious. It is important to be precise. Regardless I will save all of that for my rebuttal. I will try to have most of it typed out tonight, expect a post either tonight sometime around 3 or 4 or tomorrow.
I work best in the middle of the night don't ask why.
Some of the stuff was copied from my debate with intel so...
5 days? I just couldn't be bothered doing it on the weekday. The definition is exactly the same, well, the important bits are. I'm interested to see your response.
The number of logical fallacies that contained...... You spent 5 days on this argument? And you still got my position wrong? I very specifically told you that I did not use WHO or dictionary.com as a source for the definition of gender because it was outdated. The definition I use in the description is not from who, and paying attention would prove that.
And we're off!
Yes, I realize my critical error here. The of in the resolution should have been as!