Instigator / Pro

If real, God is supernatural.


The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Publication date
Last updated date
Number of rounds
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
Voting period
One month
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Winner selection
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Contender / Con

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Round 1
I thank my opponent for setting up this debate and forallowing me the curtesy of commencing the discussion. ( I also apologize for rushing this in the end) 
Defining the terms:
God = the Biblical God.
Supernatural = no agreed definition
B of P = is equal. Pro must prove God is supernatural andCon must prove that God is not supernatural
To succeed Pro must establish that the God of the Biblefalls within the term supernatural.
To succeed Con must establish that the God of the Biblecannot fall with the term supernatural.
The Instigator requested a debate because he found the ideathat God was not supernatural an impossible one to navigate. I accepted thedebate because it is my view that the term supernatural should not be conflatedwith the divine person referred to within the OT and NT Scriptures.
The debate question:
If Real, God is supernatural.
This is not a question of whether God exists or not. Theassumption for this debate must be premised on the hypothetical notion that theGod of the Bible exists. Hence it is not necessary for either Pro or Con toprove or attempt to prove that God exists or does not exist.
Nor is it necessary for either Pro or Con to prove thereality of the supernatural or not. This is not a question of its truth or not,its reality or not.
The debate question is ultimately about whether God issupernatural and, in many respects, this turns on the both the definition ofsupernatural (of which is in disagreement).
What is understood by supernatural?
In some dictionaries, [1] supernatural does not include God or deity, but, in others, [2]  God or divine falls within thedefinition. I propose that this contradiction and inconsistency is not really aquestion in dispute, but serves to provide some balance in this discussion.
Some suggested Definitions for supernatural – excludingGod for the sake of discussion
·         “of or relating to an order of existence beyondthe visible observable universe”
·         (of a manifestation or event) attributed to someforce beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
·         Supernatural creatures, forces, and events arebelieved by some people to exist or happen, although they are impossibleaccording to scientific laws.
·         of, relating to, or being above or beyond whatis natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
·         an antonym for supernatural is “natural”.[3]
First point of discussion:  God is natural.
The God of the Bible describes himself as “I am who I am”. Heis God. He is divine. He is not human. Therefore, all that he does is naturalin accordance with his own nature, which the above definition states is anantonym of supernatural. God cannot be unnatural – he is consistent with hisnature. Therefore, he is not supernatural. He cannot be both natural andsupernatural as a matter of logic, unless of course natural is not an antonymof supernatural as dictionaries state.
Birds fly. This is natural for birds. Insects walk on water.This is natural for insects. Chameleons adapt to their environment.  This is natural. I suggest God does what Goddoes and this too is natural for God.
Pro needs to demonstrate that God is inconsistent with hisnature to demonstrate that God is supernatural.
Second Point of discussion: God works in and throughcovenants and not magic or the supernatural
God chooses to relate to humanity through covenant. Notthrough magic or superstition or the so called supernatural. A covenant is anagreement where both sides agree to perform certain actions for the benefit ofthe covenant. It is different from a contract where both parties work for thegood of their own individual self-interests.
God uses the church to gather his people to worshiphim.  It is not a supernatural organisation.It is an organisation of people who are loyal to their king and God. He usesthe church to help and to assist other people. This is not supernatural.
He uses the bible – his word. This is not supernatural. Itis in written in human language. It is revealed in human stories. It is a storyof man with God. It is not about the supernatural and in fact distinguishesitself from magic and superstition. And condemns all such behaviour.
Human’s don’t need to know magic formulas to read the Word orto be loyal to God. They don’t need to be “supernatural” to read and understandthe bible. They don’t need the supernatural to be reconciled with God.
The religious sacraments are not supernatural. Baptism usesan element of water to demonstrate a washing of the heart of humanity. Thewater does not wash the man’s heart – but is only a symbol. The man’s heart isnot supernatural. It is simply what is common to all humans. It is hisconsciousness before God.
Holy Communion is not supernatural. It is a covenant relationshipbetween man and God. It is a meal. Bread and the Fruit of the Vine. The elementsrepresent Christ.
Prayer is not a supernatural act by humans. It is humanstalking to God. God is omniscient. This is not supernatural because God isdivine and not human. It is divine.  Prayeris talking. It is not supernatural.
Singing in Church is praise of God. It too is notsupernatural.
Third Point of discussion: Not all things that attributedto some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature areevidence of the supernatural.
There are things that occur or have occurred in our universethat are not testable by science. Such things will never be known withcertainty. It would be absurd to attribute those things to the supernatural.This suggestion is itself a version of the God of the Gaps hypothesis.
The origin of the universe is such an example. It is unableto be verified or tested or explained by Science. Yet to suggest that it canonly be explained by the supernatural is absurd.
Pro must demonstrate that the God of the Gaps theory isvalid to succeed in this argument.
Fourth Point of discussion: The Distinction between The Divineand supernatural
The Bible makes a clear distinction between the Divine andso called supernatural. The supernatural is associated with the occult.  With magic and superstition and withdeception and with manipulation. It requires incantations and magic spells and magicpotions. Its form is often a distorted picture of humanity – whether it is abeautiful image such as the gods of Greece or Rome or the grotesque dragons andwitches of fairy tales or the half man – half beast embodiements like were wolvesor giants or dwarfs and elves or even orks.
Fifth point of discussion: Not all miracles and creationstories are examples of the supernatural.
This is evident in the ordinary healing of the body in life.Healing is a natural part of life.  Everyhuman naturally heals in some ways. This is not supernatural. It isnatural. 
When a human falls out of a plane and does not die. It is calleda miracle. Not because it is supernatural but because it is rare and unusual.Unusual things are not normally called supernatural. If a human is extraordinarilytall or short, this does not make that person supernatural – just rare and unusual.
Jesus rising from the dead was not a supernatural act.  It was because death could hold him down becausehe had not sinned.  Any person who hasnot sinned cannot remain dead.
God is divine. He is a deity.  He is the creator of life. This does not makehim supernatural. Supernatural things are part of the created order is suchthings exist. God is divine – and the proper way to understand life. Superstitionis a distorted and unreal way of understanding life.

Round 2
Pro has not provided a response to my arguments. 

I take it that until he does - that he has conceded all my points. 

Round 3
Again no arguments by the proponent. 
Round 4
Again no response from the instigator. 

I am prepared to accept his concession. 
Round 5
Again, just to reiterate my point. 

This is not an debate about the existence or denial of the supernatural. 

It is not even a debate about whether God exists or not. 

It is about whether the God of the Bible is supernatural or not. 

I have several arguments. 

The instigator has not refuted any of these. 

I therefore ask you to vote for me.