Instigator / Pro
13
1500
rating
13
debates
42.31%
won
Topic
#2854
Holocaust Denial should be outlawed in the USA
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
6
Better sources
4
6
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3
After 3 votes and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...
Pilot
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 5,000
- Voting period
- Six months
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
18
1506
rating
4
debates
50.0%
won
Description
Should denial of the Holocaust be protected in the United States of America? At least 17 countries have already outright banned it. 80 years after the crime occured, it is it hightime for the USA to follow suit?
Round 1
Pro
#1
Xenophobia is antithetical to what the USA represents:
"... all men are created equal ..."
Holocaust-denial is a form of xenophobia, therefore Holocaust-denial is antithetical to our principles. As such, it should be outlawed.
"... silencing Holocaust-denial is against our principle of Freedom of Speech and explicitly allowed by the 1st Amendment ... "
— I imagine my opponent will use this as an argument
The truth is, there are already exceptions to the 1st Amendment. Screaming "fire" (without cause) in a crowded theater is a well-known example. Understand that Holocaust-denial is not political or ideological speech of the sort the Framers intended to protect. As a matter of fact, it's outright denial of a basic historical fact involving the most widescale, organized, pre-meditated mass-murder in human history. Considered on that point alone, it is already clear how the Holocaust, and by extension refusal to acknowledge it, are exceptions to the general sphere of global politics (not just our own).
Our allies in Europe have long since recognized that a most extreme, inflexibly-literal interpretation of Freedom of Speech must submit to the harsh reality that allowing a mockery of the worst crime ever, yet in the memory of many still alive, is necessarily a step forwards towards ripening an environment that would encourage it to take place again.
Let my opponent contradict me on this point, if they so dare. Otherwise, they must concede that their position promotes, more than it deters, a repeat of the Holocaust. Hope for any shred of the Freedom of Speech we both love would itself suffer and die in the general slaughter. Enduring the lies and delusions of what used to be a mob of murderers, but which has since evolved into a global web of interconnected racemongers, is self-defeating behavior based on an inherently incoherent ideology that would have us sacrifice Freedom in the name of Freedom.
Holocaust-denial should be illegalized because it is a most sure defense against repeating the worst mistake of history, is itself contrary to the spirit of the Freedom of Speech many mistakenly reference in evidence of its legitimacy, and many of our allies, no less freedom-loving than ourselves, have already taken this extremely fundamental and basic step to preserve civilization.
Thank you for reading my opening arguments, and I hand the floor over to my opponent.
Con
#2
My opponent neglected to post the definitions of some key terms that are, or may be pertinent to the discussion at hand. I'd like to post some of those definitions now to help keep these descriptions crystal clear throughout this discussion.
Hol·o·caust de·ni·al
noun
noun: Holocaust denial
- the belief or assertion that the Holocaust did not happen or was greatly exaggerated.
outlawed
/ˈoutˌlôd/
adjective
- made illegal; banned."an outlawed extremist group"
hate speech
: speech expressing hatred of a particular group of people.
It seems to me something of a scandal that it is even necessary to debate these issues two centuries after Voltaire defended the right of free expression for views he detested. It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the holocaust to adopt a central doctrine of their murderers. -Noam Chomsky.
In a trial, or debate, it goes without saying that most people would not consider the verdict or judgement to be a valid judgement if either the defense or the plaintiff were barred from being involved in the trial or debate before it even took place. Whether you would consider holocaust deniers to be on the side of the plaintiff or the defense, what is happening when we outlaw holocaust denial is we are disallowing the survivors and their families the chance to answer to the accusations of holocaust deniers, or the survivors chance to hold holocaust deniers accountable for their molestation of historical truths in the arena of social judgment where a valid judgement is crucially needed. If we want the truth of history to be untainted by the purposeful political propaganda of holocaust deniers, and we want that judgement to be universally considered a valid judgement, then we will never get that without both sides being allowed to enter the arena.
We can probably all accept that the primary reason for outlawing holocaust denial is to hopefully curb antisemitism. Unfortunately, when it comes to the holocaust and antisemitism as a whole, the trial may be ongoing for the foreseeable future. My opponent mentioned the fact that at least 17 countries have outlawed holocaust denial, and it is indeed a fact. But what is most unfortunate about those efforts to curb holocaust denial and antisemitism as a whole is that there is absolutely no evidence that they are effective at curbing antisemitism at all. Mein Kampf was almost instantly put on the best sellers list in Germany as soon as it was made available again since its banning after WW2. It can be argued that he reason for that is because historians and teachers want to demonstrate the mindset of nazism and how it lead to such a destructive political movement. In all fairness, it is probably accurate to assume that the reason for hitlers book being such a hot item in Germany is specifically for the purpose of exemplifying the evil that lead to the holocaust. At least one would hope, but the truth remains to be seen. Germany is indeed one of the countries that has made holocaust denial a crime.
One would hope that if they go ahead and infringe on people's freedom of speech for the purpose of curbing antisemitism that they'd find objective proof that their policy would yield results. That was the hope in Germany when they outlawed holocaust denial. Not surprisingly, Germany outlawed swastikas and any reverence to the nazis or hitler. Even so much as putting your hand up to portray a nazi salute is punishable with jail time. But unfortunately, a study has shown that one fourth of Germans still have antisemitic sentiments. If we were looking for indisputable proof that outlawing holocaust denial would curb antisemitism then don't look for that proof in Germany. Not only is holocaust denial illegal, but any reverence to the nazis or hitler, or brandishing any nazi symbols are also illegal. And yet they still struggle with the problem of antisemitism.
Even when we consider the margin of error in this study, it's difficult to claim that antisemitism is a present and influential factor in German society just as it is in the US. There still exists political movements in Germany that espouse all the very same "ideals" as the nazis. The only difference between those groups and the nazis is the name and their inability to swear allegiance to hitler or flash any swastikas, or publicly deny the holocaust happened because German law forbids it. But we can certainly guesstimate that those antisemitic political groups do hold the same hideous beliefs as American nazi sympathizers, and they also surely have holocaust deniers within their ranks.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Does citing the anti-Semite Voltaire bolster my opponent's case? Evidently not. Noam Chomsky is gravely mistaken here.
Exemplifying Holocaust-denial as denial of the freedom of survivors to "answer to the accusations" is a neat tactic, I admit. Perhaps we should in fact encourage Holocaust-denial in order to give them more opportunities to exercise this "freedom"? Perhaps libel, slander, and all manner of vicious attempts to distort the truth and attack victims' character should be allowed in the name of Freedom of Speech?
Acknowledging that there are limits to this freedom is the first step out of this labyrinth of cognitive confusion. Holocaust-denial is not an "opportunity" for victims to exercise their "freedom". Rather, it is a thinly-veiled threat against all their freedoms, not just Freedom of Speech ... or freedom to be harassed and personally attacked as liars. Entertaining Holocaust-deniers is in practice entertaining those who want to subvert our own freedoms, and it is in practice where the limits of freedoms are determined by governments.
Video-recording is not permitted in the Supreme Court despite Freedom of the Press, because in practice only cherry-picked cuts would be seen by the public that would completely (and deliberately) misrepresent the actual process in the service of political propaganda, undermining trust in the entire government. Eventually this would result in chaos and inevitably, violence to all freedoms, including the very Freedom of the Press recording was supposed to exemplify.
Note that Mein Kampf becoming a best-seller in Germany after being censored for a lifetime is probably due to the Streisand effect. This is the phenomenon where trying to prevent people from seeing something only makes them more curious to see it, even those who otherwise would have had zero interest in it. It is absolutely no measure or indication whatsoever of anti-Semitism in Germany.
Evidence that banning Holocaust-denial is effective is the fact that Germany has not yet devolved into a second Nazi state, and will remain unable to do so as long as Holocaust-denial remains a crime. Kryptonite is to Superman what banning Holocaust-denial is to Nazism. According to my opponent's statistics, the fight to eradicate anti-Semitism is still ongoing, so this fear is not completely unfounded.
For Nazism to be necromanced into a mainstream ideology, Holocaust-denial must be allowed. Suppose that this were to take place. Then it would be undeniable that those who revived it would have paraded their attacks on the truth in the name of Freedom of Speech, and pointed to my opponent as a vanguard of freedom and liberty; dare I say, a Nazi hero.
I challenge Con to explicitly deny this.
Con
#4
Libel and slander are not aspects of my argument, nor are they legal according to the US constitution. My opponent had the opportunity to provide a definition of holocaust denial that better fits their argument, but pro neglected to do so. The definition of holocaust denial which was not disputed by pro does not encompass the terms "libel", or "slander". If my opponent wanted to cite a definition of holocaust denial that does include libel and slander, or create a debate that does include those things, they had the opportunity to do that. Libel and slander are not legal forms of expression and my argument is not made to allow those forms of expression to be made without legal consequences. Anybody who engages in libel or slander should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The ACLU has represented holocaust deniers in court because of their firm commitment to freedom of expression, even when it's considered taboo. They do not represent people who commit slander or libel.
Simply questioning the methods of data compiling or the reliability of first hand accounts of the extent of the holocaust is not a form of slander or libel. However unlikely it would be for a holocaust denier to uncover valid evidence that brings into question the extent of the holocaust, it doesn't warrant outright banning. This is especially so because the more sophisticated an analysis of questioning whether the holocaust happened as is documented, then the more sophisticated a rebuttal to those misguided attempts will be forthcoming. And I'm sure we can all agree that the evidence will always outshine the historical revisionists.
My opponent asserts that since there are legal limitations to freedom of speech, then it should logically follow that there should be more, like banning holocaust denial. This ignores the reasoning as to why certain forms of expression are indeed illegal. Inciting riots or causing a panic are obviously dangerous to property and the safety of citizens. Calls for violence are also illegal for logical reasons. But the lack of evidence of the effectiveness of banning holocaust denial, it cannot be argued that a total banning of holocaust denial has any sort of logical reasoning for being banned like other forms of banned expressions have.
This brings me to the most damming aspect of pro's argument. Pro offers us nothing in the way of what it is they hope to accomplish by outlawing holocaust denial. Pro does offer the concept of making sure survivors and Jewish descendants are not exposed to unjustified offensive rhetoric. But unfortunately for pro, that is not a guaranteed right that the citizens of the US are allotted, and it's not necessarily known if only banning holocaust denial would achieve that goal alone. We could also work with the hope of oppressing antisemitism with this banning, but pro has a serious lack of anything in that regard in their argument. The only thing pro did to not drop my point about how Germany is still reeling from antisemitic feelings even though they do have a banning of holocaust denial is pro offers us this: **"Evidence that banning Holocaust-denial is effective is the fact that Germany has not yet devolved into a second Nazi state, and will remain unable to do so as long as Holocaust-denial remains a crime".***That retort is ripe with assumptions and speculation, but no evidence to back it up. How do we know Germany will not succumb to national socialist ideology in the near future? That rebuttal also totally ignores the fact that antisemitism is still a frightening influence in German politics and social life, but also is still on the rise. Germany is indeed one of the countries that has made holocaust denial a crime, and as I've said, we shouldn't look to them to find any evidence of the effectiveness of banning holocaust denial, because there's none to be had there.
Holocaust denial is egregious in every manner, but what about nazi sympathizers and antisemites who wholly accept that the holocaust happened as is written and universally accepted? But instead, they'll argue that the work that the nazis started was not completed, and we must continue that work? Not only is that even worse than simple holocaust denial, it is not holocaust denial itself. Therefore, that type of rhetoric would not be banned. There would need to be other forms of legal mandates put into place to thwart the attempts of nazi sympathizers who will obviously just simply not deny the holocaust happened if holocaust denial became banned. My opponent really wants this discussion to be more broadly about our freedom of speech, and about hate speech in general, but pro should only be arguing about the merits of banning holocaust denial alone. Pro will not be able to make a complete argument without the more broad aspects of freedom of speech and hate speech. That should be taken into account by anybody voting on this debate because the title and description of this debate is specifically about holocaust denial only.
Thank you for reading this. I will now send it back to pro.
Round 3
Pro
#5
Need I redefine "Holocaust-denial" in order to win this debate via a semantic angle? Of course not! I shall demonstrate that my position is the correct one based entirely on its merits alone.
The assertion that Holocaust-denial does not encompass libel and slander ignores reality while hyperfocusing on definitions and technicalities. Admittedly, neither the words "libel" nor "slander" appear anywhere in the defintion we have both agreed upon. Can we therefore extrapolate from this into the conclusion that Holocaust-denial does not imply libel? If one were to point out that the definition of "gas" in the dictionary does not contain the word "murder", and try to use this as proof that gas is incapable of killing anyone, I can say with certainty that we would all laugh at them.
Reality is often cruel and as she so often does to all of us, once again gets in the way of my opponent's idealism. Because Holocaust-denial implicitly accuses all victims of the Holocaust of lying, it is libel and slander, despite these words not appearing in the definition. Asserting that the Holocaust did not happen is necessarily asserting that either all victims are lying, some or lying and some are mistaken, or somehow every last one of the millions are mistaken. Frankly, we can easily rule out the possibility that anyone believes the latter.
Let me take this opportunity to reiterate a fantastic statement of my opponents' which we can all agree upon:
"Anybody who engages in libel or slander should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law."
This is tantamount to a concession that Holocaust-denial should be prosecuted, because we've already established that Holocaust-denial is libel and slander.
Objectively speaking, it is not "unlikely" that evidence against the extent of the Holocaust could be found, but impossible. The most infamous event in world history with thousands of surviving victims in the age of global media cannot be "evidenced" to have been meaningfully exaggerated, much less by a random Holocaust-denier. Assume for the sake of argument at least that backwards time-travel is impossible, so nobody can go back to stop it from having occured.
Suppose that there were a group of malcontent individuals hell-bent on demonstrating that the writing of the Constitution never happened and in fact, the Constitution is a hoax and does not actually exist wherever it's claimed to be preserved now. It is completely up to your imagination what their motives and purposes are for this hypothetical, because in any case this is effectively treason. To meditate upon this for a mere 2 seconds will bring this fact to light, because while at first glance it seems to be a silly exercise of Freedom of Speech, it is in reality a threat to the foundations of democracy in the USA.
Surely my opponent can draw the line somewhere else, if they disagree where I have drawn it myself. Understanding what they think is an abuse of a freedom is important for us to not talk over each other in this debate. Apparently "inciting riots", "causing a panic", and endangering "property" and "safety of citizens" do cross the line for them. Clearly it is lost on Con that Holocaust-denial necessarily leads to all of those things, just as "Constitution-denial" would. Obviously the first people to be blamed, once a critical mass of the population has been duped into becoming Holocaust-deniers, are the very victims of the Holocaust themselves. Let us not entertain fantasies about fighting deniers with the pen, with eloquent arguments and fluid quill strokes, while they laugh at us and continue to spew their brainwashing propaganda upon the masses who are too busy with family, work and other responsibilities to perform a critical analysis of either side.
Or, we sacrifice the reputation of the victims, and indeed again their very safety from harassment and violence, in the name of an excessively-idealistic Freedom of Speech. Have we to abandon all reason and stick to the letter of the law, while trampling its spirit underfoot?
Examples of things that are to be accomplished by banning Holocaust-denial include pushing anti-Semitism deeper underground out of sight of highly impressionable children, and guaranteeing that Nazism of the denier-type at least never gains a foothold in public political life. Holding slanderers accountable is by my opponents' own admission a worthwhile goal, and this would protect the reputation of the many yet-living victims.
To claim that my point about Germany was "ripe with assumptions and speculation" is to mischaracterize it. Should Germany turn Nazi again, the ban on Holocaust-denial would be dropped. Under no circumstances would Nazis punish someone for Holocaust-denial, so this is I feel an irrefutable argument. Or does Con deny that a ban on Holocaust-denial is proof that Nazis are not in power? Legalizing Holocaust-denial is a step towards Nazism, not neutral towards or opposed to it.
Con
#6
My opponent argues that holocaust denial is "brainwashing propaganda upon the masses who are too busy with family, work and other responsibilities to perform a critical analysis of either side". This is a misguided and slightly offensive assertion. It's an argument that basically claims that "the masses" are too busy with their own lives to do anything about the rise of anti-semitism. So, unless you, the reader, were raised by wolves and were discovered under a rock, and taught to read just in time to be involved in this discussion, then you can consider yourself an entity of "the masses". So what pro is now saying is that YOU, the reader are too preoccupied with your daily life and familial duties to be able to do anything about the rise of nazism and antisemitism. Pro also claims that YOU, the reader are susceptible to propaganda and will not be able to help but capitulate to the rhetoric of holocaust denial no matter how obscenely absurd it may be. And because of that, you should be stripped of your responsibility to apply and enforce ethical and moral values and place that responsibility solely in the hands of the government.
This next tactic I'm going to employ may backfire on me very badly, but here goes anyway. Let us extend some empathy to the holocaust deniers themselves. It's probably (hopefully) impossible for you to be able to justify antisemitism or holocaust denial simply by using your skill for empathy. But if those holocaust deniers are dedicated to their families and jobs and the people they love, it may be hard for you to deny that at least those are righteous ideals that you actually share with those holocaust deniers, the very people you abhor (again, hopefully). If those holocaust deniers are capable of launching a propaganda machine that is capable of brainwashing all the silly masses, and they can do so while being dedicated to their families and jobs and the people they love, then who is pro to claim that you yourself are not capable of seeing through their rouse and understanding that they are full of shit? All the while doing so with the responsibility of your family, work, and everyone you love hanging over you. I get the feeling you'll be able to cope with this task with ease.
Pro's argument also carelessly disregards the power of social movements. There are many people who are actively involved in keeping nazism and antisemitism in the lowest dungeons of social taboos, along with other forms of hate and racism. And they too are capable of doing this while the responsibilities and stresses of their daily lives still loom over them. Pro says this won't work, and we should just let the government do it. Pro is plainly saying that we are too busy to be able to effectively cope with enforcing the ideals and morals we are dedicated to.
I pointed out how questioning the methods of data compilation and first hand accounts is not slander or libel, and it is not the type of expression that is restricted in the US. At no point in this discussion have I conceded that holocaust denial is inherently slander or libel, especially since it was I who posted the description of holocaust denial, and pro has openly accepted that description. If a legal form of expression is seen to cause social angst, is it up to the government to stop it from happening, or do some responsibilities fall on society themselves to resist it? So far, the government mandates that were put in place to resist nazism in Germany have proven to be absolutely useless (a point pro hopes will just go away).
If anybody here were to take the time to read the link I posted in my opening argument, they'd find that even though polls have found that a large portion of German society do have antisemitic attitudes and antisemitism is on the rise, it also shows us that more people in Germany are willing to actively resist nazism and antisemitism. That is a willingness to resist antisemitism without any incentive from the government. It is a willingness of German people to actively resist what those German citizens find to be immoral and abhorrent. Those are self made incentives without the influence of money or power which can and does easily influence government entities. Self made incentives are a kind of incentive that is far more effective than simple government mandates. And since those mandates have proven to be useless, it only makes a total ban on holocaust denial simply a symbolic policy. It's rendered nothing more than a decoration. The only people who actually have the power to do anything about antisemitism, and have the right kind of incentive, are society themselves. A government will not be able to that.
Thank you for reading this. I will now send it back to pro.
Round 4
Pro
#7
To claim that my point about Germany was "ripe with assumptions and speculation" is to mischaracterize it. Should Germany turn Nazi again, the ban on Holocaust-denial would be dropped. Under no circumstances would Nazis punish someone for Holocaust-denial, so this is I feel an irrefutable argument. Or does Con deny that a ban on Holocaust-denial is proof that Nazis are not in power? Legalizing Holocaust-denial is a step towards Nazism, not neutral towards or opposed to it.
Ultimately nobody knows whether Germany will succumb to National Socialism in the near future, but my opponent's take on this demonstrates a defeatist attitude toward politics. Can we ever put an end, once and for all, to all violent crime? Imagine allowing murder because it's possible that, in the near future, murder will occur despite the illegality of it. Denial of the Holocaust should be outlawed in spite of how ineffective, at any given time, the enforcement of the ban is. I assume no voter will disagree with me here when I say that a police force doing a terrible job at preventing crime is not evidence that all crime should be legalized. Reality is not The Purge.
Supposedly, 5% of British adults are Holocaust-deniers. This implies that if the number of people who think the Holocaust didn't "finish the job" is a significant proportion of Neo-Nazis, they'd have to comprise a number approaching or exceeding 5%. It's highly unlikely that about 5% of British are anti-Semites yet not Holocaust-deniers, because that would make 10% of Britain anti-Semitic, so assuming these numbers are representative of the USA means we can rest assured that banning Holocaust-denial hits Neo-Nazism where it hurts.
Regarding my comment about brainwashing the masses, I did not mean to imply that anyone is unintelligent. Especially not the German people. The point I was trying to make was, there were tens of millions of otherwise intelligent Germans who succumbed to Nazi propaganda. It's a safe assumption they weren't all stupid, but then again nobody ever suggested that. Rarely does one have time to truly evaluate what they hear, much less an avalanche of lies propagated day-in, day-out from official sources in every aspect of one's life. We must spare the public from this malicious burden. Anyone interested in the intellectual pursuit of historical study of the Holocaust would not be prevented by the law I propose in any way.
You propose, as a thought experiment, that I sympathize with Holocaust-deniers who are "dedicated to their families and jobs and the people they love." But what evidence is there that Holocaust-deniers are actually functioning members of society? Don't make me laugh.
Even I admit that I am not immune to propaganda, and would appreciate a bare-minimum attempt by my government to restrict rampant lies, libel, and slander from being published as fact by the media, whether mainstream or from some corner of the dark web. The conspiracy theorists are not special in the eyes of defamation laws, after all.
Nazism had its beginnings as a social movement, so it is highly amusing that my opponent would charge me with disregarding the power of social movements. Educating people on why Holocaust-deniers are wrong is not sufficient, because by giving them a platform we have already conceded half the battle. Vaccine-deniers are not debated publicly on TV, are they? Nazism and Holocaust-denialism are far worse, and so should not even be debated on the street.
I am still curious whether my cordial opponent shall admit that he would not allow Constitution-denial, because it would be interesting whether they they think there is even any sort of denial at all so outrageous that it should be illegal.
Should denazification have never taken place, and should the government mandates against Nazism today be removed? According to my opponent, yes, because they are "absolutely useless". When we consider the fact that Germany has not turned Nazi again, despite an alleged 1 in 4 Germans being anti-Semitic, we can see that these regulations have actually been successful in the most important way.
The desire of Germans to resist Nazism is all well and good, but if 1 and 4 are already anti-Semitic, official government action must be taken because civilian efforts are not enough.
I return the floor to Con.
Con
#8
In lieu of the fact that my opponent now willfully asserts that their proposal should be implemented even if it can be demonstrated to be ineffective, I do not feel the need to elaborate on this issue until my opponent addresses the fact that their proposal can certainly be shown to be ineffective. I will leave it up to the judges to decide whether it would actually be beneficial to infringe on our liberty and implement my opponents policy just as a symbolic gesture and not for results. I invite my opponent to address the large gaping hole in their argument.
Round 5
Pro
#9
No gaping hole exists in my arguments.
Observe how my opponent uses the word "liberty" as code for "liberty to deny Holocaust victims closure, call them liars, and accuse them of fabricating the worst tragedy ever to befall humanity":
I will leave it up to the judges to decide whether it would actually be beneficial to infringe on our liberty and implement my opponents policy just as a symbolic gesture and not for results.
This is liberty?
Constitutionally-guaranteed freedom?
In the words "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" I am supposed to find, hidden away in some dark, web-infested crevice, license to libel?
For sure, I am not accusing my opponent of deliberate deception. Examine how they describe my proposed policy as a "symbolic gesture". Results are lacking, supposedly. Under this assumption, there is no harm in implementing my policy, since again, according to them, it's just a symbolic gesture.
Per my own arguments, it would have positive effects by curbing anti-Semitism.
So my opponent argues against it by claiming it's useless. I argue for it, since it can save milions of lives.
How can one forbid a policy whose aim is to save human lives, based purely on the rationale that they don't think it will be effective?
A building is prepared for demolition. On the off-chance some poor soul is inside, I recommend we yell and give them a chance to escape.
Here we have my opponent refusing to let us do that, and denying whoever may be inside, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Sad ...
Con
#10
1. My opponent insists on arguing against libel regardless of the fact that this discussion is strictly about holocaust denial. My opponent would make a better case if this discussion were about libel only, but unfortunately it is not. My opponent did not object to the definition of holocaust denial that I provided, and it does not include the term libel in any sense. Instead of closing that hole in their argument, pro instead opted to double down on their assertion. Simply questioning the methods of data compilation by allied forces, or first hand descriptions of witnesses and victims of the holocaust is not libel. So pro's argument that holocaust denial is automatically libel holds no water.
2. Pro did nothing to attack any of the evidence I provided which demonstrates there is a serious lack of evidence that pro's proposal is effective in any manner whatsoever. I provided evidence which suggests that regardless of the strict holocaust denial laws that have been implemented in Germany, still large portions of German society(the majority in fact) have antisemitic attitudes. My opponent neglected to show that German antisemitism is not less than, or even equal to Americans who have antisemitic attitudes. This means my opponent could not give us any valid evidence that their proposal has any desired effect. There still are pro nazi political organizations in Germany that are very influential in German society, including the NDP who tries to appeal to the "common man" to get their message across.
3. Pro believes common working class people who oppose antisemitism and authoritarian sentiments have not the time or power to stop the threat of antisemitism and pro-nazism. Despite the fact that many antisemitic peoples obviously also have jobs and families to provide for, pro somehow believes it is they who are more influential and capable of spreading their heinous message, and those who are not antisemitic are too busy, and too easily persuaded by the unscientific methods of holocaust deniers. Not only is that an offensive assertion, it is most certainly false in every manner. We are not mindless sheep who are persuaded by bullshit artists with trendy catchphrases. We are thoughtful and capable resistors.
4. Regardless of the fact that my opponent did nothing to refute my claims their proposal is ineffective, my opponent chose instead to double down on their proposal by claiming it should be implemented even if it has no desirable affect. Not only does that turn pro's proposal into nothing more than a decorative symbolic policy, it needlessly impedes on peoples liberty. This is the most damaging aspect to pro's argument. I pointed out how antisemitic people can simply go ahead and embrace the true numbers of the holocaust and push a narrative of the holocaust simply being an unfinished job. Since this could be considered the opposite of the desired effect of pro's proposal, it can be argued that pro's proposal would only serve to exacerbate the problem, not help it.
With all the evidence and claims put forward in this discussion, it is my firm belief that the voters of this debate should vote con.
I'd like to personally thank my friend Puachu for allowing me the opportunity to make my case here, and for and interesting discussion. Good luck Puachu, and thanks to those of you who have taken interest in this discussion.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Arguments:
In short, affirming the resolution for the USA became dependant on the german people only being held back from repeating genocide, by laws against denying it happened. There are several obvious problems with this, but in short: Germany <> USA. For the USA, pro basically yielded that it would be ineffective. The hypothetical that it might save millions of lives by preventing the USA from launching a holocaust, was intuitively unwarranted given the lack of such manifesting already (con’s direct challenge here was that it wouldn’t actually do anything here).
Sources:
Neither went very far with these. To which there were a lot of missed opportunities.
Legibility:
Both were fine, but there were a couple tiny issues. As per usual, I would suggest adding in contention headings and perhaps some direct syllogisms.
Conduct:
A couple things that could be nitpicked from both sides, but nothing that significantly distracted from the debate.
More in comments: https://www.debateart.com/debates/2854-holocaust-denial-should-be-outlawed-in-the-usa?open_tab=comments&comments_page=1&comment_number=83
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Set-up. Pro provided no definition of terms in the Set-up Description, and suggested a number of countries which have engaged the Resolution that Holocaust deniers have been outlawed, as if, by consequence, it is a given the US should. Further, [in R1,] Pro still did not offer definition of terms, leaving that necessity [by this voter] to do so in the Con R1 frame. Most instigating debaters provide term definitions of Resolution keywords. Although there is no Policy suggestion that definitions are necessary in set-up [and, in fact, in the Cheating section of the Voting policy, there is a prohibition of offering favorable definitions to the instigator, it implies that unbiased definitions are appropriate. If only to focus the debate argumentation. This is not a point contributor, merely observation.
Argument: Pro begins argument by declaring Holocaust denial being xenophobic, assuming this to be true without offering supporting evidence. Pro did offer a source for the claim, but the source is, effectively, just as lacking in evidence; it, too, merely makes the claim, rendering the claim as mere opinion. Were there definitive evidence of the linkage, Pro should have provided scholastic evidence, but did not. Pro then argues limitations to the US Constitution’s First Amendment offer of freedom of speech, but that there are limitations to its universal application. Pro furthers this argument by declaration that other countries which have imposed legal criminalization of Holocaust denial do so in keeping with these free speech limitations, and, therefore, that the U.S. should do likewise. Con’s argument, by rebuttal, against the free speech limitation confronts the brutal reality that the sufferers of the Holocaust have the right to information regarding the Holocaust from all sources, even deniers. To lack all information by censorship is denial of free access to all knowledge available, even that which may, in fact, inflict emotional, spiritual damage. To be sure, the limitation of freedom of speech cannot harm physically, an effect to be avoided, even by law, but harm to emotion and spirit is by weak choice to convert to retaliation. Though Pro continued to press the freedom of speech issue throughout the rest of the rounds, pro could not defeat the Con rebuttal. In fact, in R2, Pro offered the prohibition of video in the Supreme Court, but this argument is not a limitation of freedom of speech, for the entire syllabus of SCOTUS decision are available in print, and available be free access on the Internet, thus satisfying the freedom of speech. Pro subsequently offered the Streisand effect, but his source for that argument actually supported the prohibition of censorship, which is a valid argument against the Resolution, as silencing Holocaust deniers effectively does. Con rebuts, “…unfortunately for pro, that is not a guaranteed right that the citizens of the US are allotted, and it's not necessarily known if only banning holocaust denial would achieve that goal alone.” Con thus negates the Pro argument that criminalizing Holocaust denial would necessarily stop the information flow to Holocaust survivors, or anyone else, for that matter, since it is a well known maxim that proof of a negative is an ineffective logic. There are more examples of insufficient argument by pro to prove the Resolution, but these will suffice. Points to Con.
Sourcing: Both sides use sourcing effectively, but the example of pro’s source in R2 of actually arguing against the Resolution [the Streisand effect] is sufficient example of a source failure. Points to Con.
Legibility: Both participants’ arguments were easy to follow and interpret. Tie.
Conduct: Ignoring Pro's repeated charges to Con to "explicitly deny" pro arguments, which bordered on unnecessary taunting, Conduct was equally civil on both sides. Tie.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Arguments:
First of all, just to get something out of the way - Con - your evidence really isn't all that strong - the source you provide isn't even the actual study and doesn't link to the study either, it isn't hard to guess why as the survey apparently only has 300 or so responses... far from representative - so while I'm not completely disregarding the source, it really has a very small impact on the debate itself.
The Libel: Con essentially asserts that because the definition of Holocaust denial precludes libel, libel is not the topic of discussion, but Pro convinces me that it is the *means* by which one should view Holocaust denial - as this was essentially a debate of rhetoric - Con you should have attacked that argument more than mentioning its preclusion from the description - clearly the implications of Holocaust denial would be dealing in Libel. Perhaps if Con could have shown evidence that cases like this were ruled in favor of the denier, or something similar, then I wouldn't be convinced - in the absence of such evidence the point goes to Pro.
Propaganda: This goes to an appeal to emotion versus an appeal to realism - and I am not very swayed by Con's attempt to "sympathize" with Nazi sympathizers, nor I am very convinced that Pro is deliberately attacking the masses - in most research papers, citing something that is common knowledge is a task in redundancy, and it is fairly common knowledge that everyone is vulnerable to propaganda - and Pro does actually back this up by reasonably appealing to the fact that it is unrealistic to say that *all* of the people who fell to the Nazi propaganda weren't unintelligent, and explained how it worked - the point goes to Pro, clearly.
The Case of Denazification: Pro argues that anti-holocaust denial laws in Britain has curbed anti-semintism, and furthermore points out that it would be unreasonable to get rid of the denazification because Germany still has high levels of ati-seministism, and argues that that is the logical conclusion of Con's plan.... and... Con plain out doesn't respond to it - in their next debate round saying: " do not feel the need to elaborate on this issue until my opponent addresses the fact that their proposal can certainly be shown to be ineffective" Con, even if this was true, and it wasn't, whenever a debate is arguing that something "should" happen, it is happening on more than a legal front - I hope its not neccessary to say, but Pro won this as well.
Despite the confidence Con has in his appeal to evidence, his source is easily ignored (even without the weakness of it) by Pro's rhetoric. Though I would have liked both sides using a *lot* more sources, the simple fact is that Pro is more convincing and makes more impactful points, whereas it seems Con is grasping at straws, saying things like, "the definition of holocaust denial doesn't include libel", this arugment goes to Pro.
If my last argument seems to end abruptly it's because I overshot the 5,000 character limit by 1,200 but I think I can shoehorn it into the next round pretty seamlessly.
Thank you, I appreciate that a lot.
I took no offense from your argument, and I understood your message was not about me. In fact, I commend you for trying to use more riskay and emotionally charged argumentation. Good luck.
I don't believe banning Holocaust-denial means banning thoughts; it's making it illegal to speak those thoughts out loud.
Shades of thought police. Who rightly bans thinking? Not that I favor the holocaust; I abhor it. But it is an historic fact. Thinking it is not is a perfectly legitimate thought, but having no justification in reality. That's cancel culture for you: generally useless, but a perfectly legitimate thought process, though an utter waste of thought process..
I strongly oppose the notion that you should be punished by the voters for a typo. And thank you. I assume in each round we will respond only to the arguments from the previous round, since it wouldn't be fair for you to have to respond to both my R1 and R2 in your R2.
Also to clarify, I regret that last line about "Nazi hero" because it's easily misunderstood, but I am not calling you that, I am just trying to describe the viewpoint of some hypothetical Nazis.
Thanks. Cheers.
There are numerous parameters that you have to fulfill in order for your argument to be sufficient, additionally, some things like changing colors doesn't let you submit your argument. I've been there, trust me.
The first sentence of my last paragraph should say "Even when we consider the margin of error in this study, it's difficult to claim that antisemitism ISN'T (not "is") a present and influential factor in German society just as it is in the US". I understand if any voters take this error into consideration.
If there are any mods on here who could help me, or anybody who knows any mods who could help me with my problem of publishing my argument. The button seems to not work.
I will honor your request to save any critiques until the second round.
If you win this, please challenge me on the same topic
Of course you are under no requirement to do so, but I think it would be best if the 1st round were just for opening arguments and we saved rebuttals for the 2nd round. I saw this setup in the Trump Impeachment debate and I think it's the most fair and logical way to proceed. But it's up to you.
Be interested to see what you come up with.
I do not plan to make any arguments that try to validate holocaust denial in any manner. I vehemently reject the notion that twelve million people didn't die as a result of nazi concentration camps, and I believe that the nazis were the most evil political movement to have ever existed. There will be no tabooness from my side. Well..............at least not regarding the holocaust.
To a large extent, I agree, though this also involves how people respond to perceptions of certain arguments being taboo.
This is ultimately a freedom of speech debate. My gut tells me that the holocaust we not be mentioned much at all past the first portion of round one
Sad, but beyond belief is good
Beyond Belief. I used to love that show, then the other day I came across a funny compilation on YouTube where he was arguing with himself.
I didn't know he was in Star Trek.
Is that picture the guy from beyond belief or the one from star trek?
I look forward to an interesting discussion. Good luck!
Sounds good.
I may be interested in this. I will attempt to demonstrate how banning holocaust denial would not be beneficial. The 1st amendment of the constitution would be a moot rebuttal against my argument because of how it will be framed.
Not trying to cast aspersions, but it's generally a bad idea to treat any argument you have as irrefutable. If you don't know the holes in your arguments, someone out there is likely to find them for you.
All this being said, while this seems like an intriguing topic, I think I'd have a hard time playing devil's advocate here given my family's history with the Holocaust. Probably one of the few debates I shouldn't vote on.
Take your time, but be aware that I already have an irrefutable defense against any 1st Amendment complaints.
I will have to think over this one some more.
I've raised the character limit to 5,000. Your move.
My thread on the main forum explains why I agree with pro for anybody interested
TLDR I agree with pro
I actually love Jews. I am a marxist and then have been very beneficial at spreading our message
"Overly regulating" by definition is a bad idea. If you would like to argue banning Holocaust-denial is excessive regulation, you're welcome to accept this debate!
As someone who was raised by holocaust deniers, I actually disagree. While Holocaust denial is horrible, it is a symptom of worse problems in those who spread such disinformation.
Overly regulating what people can say, is a slippery slope. Back on DDO, a brilliant debate for Australia Doesn't Exist got taken down for somehow being a hate crime.
I've updated it to 3,000 characters, that's about as long as the arguments in this debate:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/2776-trumpism-is-closer-to-fascism-than-nazism-is-to-communism
If I had 5,000 characters, I think I might take this debate. 500 characters implies you close the discussion nearly as much as the deniers themselves.
Holocaust Denial is publically claiming it did not happen. Outlawing is making something a crime, and against the law.
Define denial and outlaw. I am not sure how a belief could be outlawed, is this thoughtcrime or am I interpreting it incorrectly?
Denial that hundreds of thousands of Jews were systematically murdered by Nazi Germany as part of official goverment policy, mostly in gas chambers.
This is I believe an accurate representation of the colloquial definition of the Holocaust in the USA. Most people probably know about the 6 million number, but a significant proportion probably don't, and I don't want this debate to be derailed on that point.
Define Holocaust denial.