Exodus happened
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 3 votes and with 9 points ahead, the winner is...
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This is not about whether or not God was involved, but about whether or not the story is true or fiction. Questions about religious themes must be discarded in favour of historical questions. Breaking this theme, for example by criticising the role of God in the story, will lead to a conduct loss -- this is a voting rule.
The expanding resolution can be summed up as so:
"The story of the Israelites leaving Egypt due to miraculous circumstances is not a made-up myth"
Miraculous: extremely unlikely and/or impossible
Myth: a story not based on real events
History: real events
- Real people must be involved
- The story must have a measurable impact on history
- The alleged miracles must be possible in the real world, not only the religion of the writers
- The story is about real people
- The story has a measurable historical impact
- The natural catastrophes could actually have occurred, and the people could have reacted as they did in the story
- Where did the Jewish live hundreds of years, if not Egypt
- How did the story itself come into existence, if it is not based on true events
- Why did the Jews believe the story to be true if it wasn't? It's not like the story is unfalsifiable, or that Jews were stupid
- Why specifically is THIS story not based on real events when other religious stories are
- Natural catastrophes can occur in real history, even in Egypt
- Natural catastrophes would likely have been blamed on the Jews
- The Jewish history exists, and one cannot reject exodus without proving that there exists another possible timeline of Jewish history
- Stories about divine intervention often stem from real events
- The Jews would have no reason to write the story unless it was true
- Nobody would believe the story if it wasn't true
- The story is possible
- If the story isn't true, Jewish history makes no sense.
PRO: Exodus is possibly true in a historical contextCON: Exodus is impossibly true /OR/ something else happened
Ahmose I, king of ancient Egypt (reigned c. 1539–14 BCE) and founder of the 18th dynasty who completed the expulsion of the Hyksos (Asiatic rulers of Egypt), invaded Palestine, and re-exerted Egypt’s hegemony over northern Nubia, to the south.
To show that "miracles" happened in the exodus story, I do not need to prove the possible role of God, I simply need to prove that catastrophes described in the story could actually occur.
The flooding of the Nile has been an important natural cycle in Egypt since ancient times. It is celebrated by Egyptians as an annual holiday for two weeks starting August 15, known as Wafaa El-Nil. It is also celebrated in the Coptic Church by ceremonially throwing a martyr's relic into the river, hence the name, The Martyr's Finger (Coptic: ⲡⲓⲧⲏⲃ ⲛⲙⲁⲣⲧⲏⲣⲟⲥ, Arabic: Esba` al-shahīd). Ancient Egyptians believed that the Nile flooded every year because of Isis's tears of sorrow for her dead husband, Osiris.
There were originally five stories in the manuscript but the first is missing (and, according to some scholars, so is the conclusion of the papyrus). It is assumed that the work began with some kind of invitation by Khufu to his sons to tell stories about great wonders of the past or perhaps it was a competition among the sons to tell the best kind of story. This is, of course, speculation as no internal evidence in the texts suggests its beginning.
why did the Jews attribute the religion to a fictional character rather than the real man behind it?
Iuhetibu Fendy (also written Jewhetibew Fendy[1]) was an ancient Egyptian princess of the Thirteenth Dynasty. She was the daughter of king Sobekhotep III and of queen Neni.
To defeat this claim, CON must provide evidence that hundreds of years of Jewish history happened without being written about, and in another place than Egypt. The Jews were pretty passionate about writing their history down; and they would have written about their real origin.
If Egypt was hit by natural catastrophes, their first instincts would be to make a religious explanation for the wrath of the gods. Blaming these events on the Jews is the most realistic choice in that regard.
However the discovery of the Wadi el-Hol inscriptions near the Nile River shows that the script originated in Egypt. The evolution of proto-Sinaitic and the various proto-Canaanite scripts during the Bronze Age is based on rather scant epigraphic evidence; it is only with the Bronze Age collapse and the rise of new Semitic kingdoms in the Levant that proto-Canaanite is clearly attested (Byblos inscriptions 10th–8th century BC, Khirbet Qeiyafa inscription c. 10th century BC).[10][
Throughout antiquity, Egypt was known as the breadbasket of the world. The annual flooding of the Nile produced rich harvests, and when famine hit neighboring lands, starving peoples often made their way to the fruitful soils of Egypt. [haaretz.com]
Popular lore suggests the Hyksos, a mysterious group of foreign invaders, conquered the Nile Delta around 1638 B.C. and remained in power until 1530 B.C. But written records of the dynasty are scarce, and modern archaeologists have found few material signs of the ancient military campaign.Now, new research lends weight to an alternative theory on the Hyksos’ origins. As Colin Barras reports for Science magazine, chemical analysis of skeletons found at the Hyksos capital of Avaris indicates that people from the Levant—an area encompassing the countries surrounding the eastern Mediterranean—immigrated to Egypt centuries before the takeover. The Hyksos dynasty, then, was likely the result of an immigrant uprising, not a hostile outside invasion....Per Science, historians have previously speculated that when the pharaohs reclaimed the territory, they exiled the Hyksos rulers to southwest Asia—a move that may have inspired the biblical story of Exodus.
7 but the Israelites were exceedingly fruitful; they multiplied greatly, increased in numbers and became so numerous that the land was filled with them. 8 Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt. 9 “Look,” he said to his people, “the Israelites have become far too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country.” [Exodus 1.8-10]
Some of these Semites came to Egypt as traders and immigrants. Others were prisoners of war, and yet others were sold into slavery by their own people. A papyrus mentions a wealthy Egyptian lord whose 77 slaves included 48 of Semitic origin. [haaretz.com]
Thirty incised graffiti in a "Proto-Sinaitic script" shed light on the history of the alphabet.[1] The mines were worked by prisoners of war from southwest Asia who presumably spoke a Northwest Semitic language, such as the Canaanite that was ancestral to Phoenician and Hebrew. [Serabit_el-Khadim]
- If Ahmose really conquered the Hyksos, then many Semites would be prisoners of war and become Semitic slaves, validating the Biblical slavery.
- If there was no war between the Hyksos and Egyptians, then CON's argument is based upon false assumptions.
Serabit el-Khadim turquoise mine, a labour camp in the Sinai with a Semitic alphabetic inscription that reads "O El, save me from these mines." [ibid]
Writers in Greek and Latin record several Egyptian tales of the expulsion of a group of foreigners that were connected to the Exodus.[83]These tales often include elements of the Hyksos period and most are extremely anti-Jewish.[84]
"The story of the Israelites leaving Egypt due to miraculous circumstances is not a made-up myth"
- Real people involved
- Real impact on history
- The events are possible from a historical perspective
CON accepted my definition of the BoP. I must only prove that exodus is possibly true, and my opponent needs to prove the opposite, that exodus is virtually impossible.
Miraculous: extremely unlikely and/or impossible
PRO: Exodus is possibly true in a historical contextCON: Exodus is impossibly true /OR/ something else happened
There is solid evidence of a great famine forcing people into migrating to Egypt, and that this created a society of immigrants.
From the Instructions, it is known that Wahkare Khety, in alliance with the nomarchs of Lower Egypt, managed to repel the nomad "Asiatics" who for generations roamed in the Nile Delta. Those nomarchs, although recognizing Wahkare's authority, ruled de facto more or less independently. The expulsion of the "Asiatics" allowed the establishment of new settlements and defense structures on the northeastern borders, as well as the reprise of trades with the Levantine coast.[9]
Furthermore, new evidence suggests the Hyksos did not even invade the territories they inhabited.
This evidence is based upon radiometric dating, not some weird speculation.
The mummified head of Ahmose I at the Luxor Museum.
What does the Biblical book of exodus tell us in its prologue?
Did the Red Sea Part? No Evidence, Archaeologists Say
Exactly the same story as told by new research.
First, let us prove the occurrence of slaves being sold by their own people, similarly to what happened to Joeseph in genesis.
Now, let us prove that Semitic slaves worked in Egypt.
This strongly suggests that the slavery imposed on the Jews in the Biblical story is realistic, especially after a conquest. CON is now put in a no-win situation:
- If Ahmose really conquered the Hyksos, then many Semites would be prisoners of war and become Semitic slaves, validating the Biblical slavery.
- If there was no war between the Hyksos and Egyptians, then CON's argument is based upon false assumptions.
Ahmose began the conquest of Lower Egypt held by the Hyksos starting around the 11th year of Khamudi's reign, but the sequence of events is not universally agreed upon.[25]
Analyzing the events of the conquest prior to the siege of the Hyksos capital of Avaris is extremely difficult. Almost everything known comes from a brief but invaluable military commentary on the back of the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus, consisting of brief diary entries,[26] one of which reads[27]
I presented real evidence that current day people blame natural catastrophes on the Jews.
In other words, the Egyptians DID write stories that confirm the exodus narrative of an expulsion. It also shows that the Egyptians had a negative attitude towards the Jews. This supports the Jewish story of natural catastrophes being blamed on the Jews.
I should like to know what serves this strength of mine, when a chieftain in Avaris, and another in Kush, and I sit united with an Asiatic and a Nubian, each in possession of his slice of Egypt, and I cannot pass by him as far as Memphis... No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics. I will grapple with him, that I may rip open his belly! My wish is to save Egypt and to smite the Asiatic!"[11]
I already showed an example, in which a sign of gods turned out to be a solar eclipse. The sign of gods stopped a war and became a legend, but was still a true story.The same is true about the exodus.
The Jews believing the story to be true means that they had reason to do so, which means real evidence or real history made the Jews believe in the story.
The biblical Exodus is central in Judaism, with it being recounted daily in Jewish prayers and celebrated in festivals such as Passover. Early Christians saw the Exodus as a typological prefiguration of resurrection and salvation by Jesus.
I extend all arguments as CON could not defeat a single one of them with adequate logic or sufficient evidence.
The expanding resolution can be summed up as so:"The story of the Israelites leaving Egypt due to miraculous circumstances is not a made-up myth"
- Semitic slaves worked in Egypt
- The hyksos lived in the lower part of Egypt (which means, further from the coast)
- The Egyptians used military might to expel Asians in Egypt to southern Asia
- The Egyptians were anti-Asiatic
- Apart from that, CON made no attempt at rebutting
The plagues were really the fallout of volcanic eruption on the island of Santorini in the south of Greece around 1620-1600 BCE.Winds would have carried the volcanic ash to Egypt at some point over the summer, and the toxic acids in the volcanic ash would have included the mineral cinnabar, which could have been capable of turning a river a blood-like red color, Trevisanato holds. The accumulated acidity in the water would have caused frogs to leap out and search for clean water. Insects would have burrowed eggs in the bodies of dead animals and human survivors, which generated larvae and then adult insects. Then, the volcanic ash in the atmosphere would have affected the weather, with acid rain landing on people’s skin, which in turn caused boils. The grass would have been contaminated, poisoning the animals that ate it. The humidity from the rain and the subsequent hail would have created optimal conditions for locusts to thrive. Volcanic eruptions could also explain the several days of darkness — which means nine plagues are accounted for.[time.com](There were also 2 other theories. This is a scientific, not religious, mystery)
The eruptions of Thera (Santorini) between 1628 and 1450 BC constituted a natural catastrophe unparalleled in all of history. The last major eruption in 1450 BC destroyed the entire Minoan Fleet at Crete at a time when the Minoans dominated the Mediterranean world. In addition, there had to be massive loss of life from ejecta gases, volcanic ash, bombs, and flows. The collapse of a majestic mountain into a caldera 15 km in diameter caused a giant ocean wave, a tsunami, that at its source was estimated in excess of 46 m high. [link.springer.com]
The deadly gases probably reached the shores of north Africa. [ibid]
Six medical papyri document how Santorini's volcanic ash from the Bronze Age biphasic eruption, otherwise attested by material retrieved at the bottom of lakes at the edge of the Nile Delta, severely affected the health of the inhabitants of Egypt as well as their society as a whole. [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
The Tempest Stele was erected by pharaoh Ahmose I early in the 18th Dynasty of Egypt, c. 1550 BCE. The stele describes a great storm striking Egypt during this time, destroying tombs, temples and pyramids in the Theban region and the work of restoration ordered by the king.[1] Egypt was affected by the atmospheric effects of the Minoan eruption[19][20][21] and was struck by an earthquake.[Templest Steele]
This wall of water finally arrives at the coast travelling at 30 to 50 km/hr (30 mph) causing massive destruction.Why does the water level drop before the tsunami hits? Because it is like a tide, the tide goes out before it comes in
It is not the Hyksos invading Egypt, but the Egyptians expelling the Asiatics from Egypt
Writers in Greek and Latin record several Egyptian tales of the expulsion of a group of foreigners that were connected to the Exodus in the Ptolemaic period.[85] These tales often include elements of the Hyksos period and most are extremely anti-Jewish.[86]
Assmann suggests that the story has no single origin but rather combines numerous historical experiences, notably the Amarna and Hyksos periods, into a folk memory.[94] There is general agreement that the stories originally had nothing to do with the Jews.[85] Erich S. Gruen suggests that it may have been the Jews themselves that inserted themselves into Manetho's narrative, in which various negative actions from the point of view of the Egyptians, such as desecrating temples, are interpreted positively.[95]
CON is here to prove that the story is a made-up myth. I am here to argue that the story is based upon real history, a real expulsion
CON: Exodus is impossibly true /OR/ something else happened
- The pharaoh also orders the slaughter at birth of all male Hebrew children.
- One Hebrew child, however, is rescued by being placed in a basket on the Nile.
- Burning bush
- The Pharaoh demands for Moses to perform a miracle, and Aaron throws down Moses staff, which turns into a tannin (sea monster
- 600,000 Israelite men were involved (Exodus 12:37)
The hyksos lived in the lower part of Egypt (which means, further from the coast)
Lower Egypt (Arabic: مصر السفلى Miṣr as-Suflā; Coptic: ⲧⲥⲁϦⲏⲧ Tsakhit) is the northernmost region of Egypt, which consists of the fertile Nile Delta between Upper Egypt and the Mediterranean Sea,
The Egyptians used military might to expel Asians in Egypt to southern Asia
The Middle East is a transcontinental region in Afro-Eurasia which generally includes Western Asia (except for Transcaucasia), all of Egypt (mostly in North Africa), and Turkey (partly in Southeast Europe).
The Egyptians were anti-Asiatic
The plagues were really the fallout of volcanic eruption on the island of Santorini in the south of Greece around 1620-1600 BCE.
25 years and 4 months in Manetho (18th Dynasty)
Northern Egypt was affected by deadly gasses, while the Hyksos living lower in Egypt went mostly unharmed.
Hyksos (/ˈhɪksɒs/; Egyptian ḥqꜣ(w)-ḫꜣswt, Egyptological pronunciation: hekau khasut,[4] "ruler(s) of foreign lands"; Ancient Greek: Ὑκσώς, Ὑξώς) is a term which, in modern Egyptology, designates the kings of the Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt[5] (fl. c. 1650–1550 BC).[a] The seat of power of these kings was the city of Avaris in the Nile delta, from where they ruled over Lower and Middle Egypt up to Cusae. In the Aegyptiaca, a history of Egypt written by the Greco-Egyptian priest and historian Manetho in the 3rd century BC, the term Hyksos is used ethnically to designate people of probable West Semitic, Levantine origin.[1]
These plagues were natural catastrophes proven to have occurred by different fields of science and attested by both Jewish and Egyptian writings.
- Rather than building his own monuments, Apepi generally usurped the monuments of previous pharaohs
- Apepi is thought to have usurped the throne of northern Egypt after the death of his predecessor, Khyan,
- In the Ramesside era, Apepi is recorded as worshiping Seth in a monolatric way:
Concession (functionally identical to FF in voting can just spam all points to the conceded-to side).
A frustrating debate by both sides. Well, so be it. It's a concession, and that's always frustrating to encounter, but, so be that. It does settle the argument with a thud. This as a play in 5 acts whose curtain comes down prematurely. Oh, well. On to my RFD:
Argument. Pro states in the Description that this is not about God, and that miracles are part of the Exodus story, but immediately follows with the unlikely occurrence of miracles [?]. In R1, introduces God and miracles, so I.m trying to ignore the statements in Description, and wonder why we are not given scientific reasons why various of the plagues are demonstrated as very possible during a flooding Nile season, as Con develops in the lower frame of R1. But, the lack is an allowance of outside material that is missing anyway from the Pro argument, so, I'll drop it as an issue. No argument is no argument. I concede the point, and Pro's R1 is in shambles. However, Con's R! is not much better. We're introduced to Ahmose I, a Pharaoh a few hundred years before our alleged exodus event, so, why? Don't know. Then we are intriduced to a papyrus, begun, by Con's argument, over a thousand years before Ahmose, written for Khufu, an earlier Pharaoh [and famous for the Great Pyramid on the Giza plateau, but he's out of time, along with his papyrus. Why is he here. Don't know. Then, we are introduced to an Egyptian princess, who is not linked to the alleded exodus, either, so, why is she here? Don't know. Too many don't knows for my book. Both opponents fail R1.
R2: Pro repeats the mantra of the Description [no God,,, miracles, yes/no], then proceeds to regale more God and miracles, summing up at one point that natural catastrophes can occur, but follows by a statement that the Jews can be blamed for them [?], and I wonder just which BoP Pro is attempting to prove. Pro concludes that it's up to us to determine whether Gods exists. Again, God. Having been dismissed in Description, he apparently still has scripted lines, but this audience is looking for his name in the players' list. It seems to be missing according to the handout we received with the tickets. Con's R2 argues that evidence of a migration of Isrelites into Egypt does not prove there was an later exodus. True, but it does not disprove, either, and Con drops that argument in favor of discussion Hyksos and Asiatics wandering about, but neither negates or supplies a link to Israelites, so, what? Further in R2, Con introduces a new character on stage in his Act !!: Jesus and his resurrection? What is the link of that story to Exodus; and even that need not be proven, or disproven in this debate, so why is Jesus on stage, resurrecting, or not, let alone teaching anything? Non sequitur events occurring over a spread of over 3,000 years in two acts. An epic.
Sorry, I can't continue. I've got to leave the play to take a leak, and, maybe while O'm gone, the curtain will mercifully come down.
It did. Without detailing Act III, IV, or V... No, Act III has Pro alleging [no it is history] that a volcano erupting a few hundred years before the exodus caused the plagues. Even a hundred years before strains credibility, so both opponents are telling stories with a clock that looks like one Salvador Dali owns.
Cut to the chase, Pro concedes in Act 4, and all play nice to the end. The end. Tie.
Sources: Neither uses sources to their best advantage. Tie
Legibility: Tie
Conduct: Does a concession automatically earn a tie? No, the Voting Policy stipulates that if a conduct point is awarded to the conceding side when such a vote wold give the win to the conceding side, such a vote could go to moderation. Nope, not going to do that. Tie.
I did not report it in order to have it removed. I reported it so that it is noted that this user has already previously voted against me three times now. On the first occasion the user did so only two minutes after I expressed an alternative opinion regarding religion on the forum, and in order to vote against me he had to ignore the advice in the voting policy that 40% of a debate being forfeited can be considered an argument loss if so choosing. The person even awarded spelling and grammar to the other side, ignoring the fact that in one of the rounds the person appeared to have been under the influence of alcohol during the reply as almost every single word contained a typographical error. Also it was a borderline fluff vote as it included writing arguments against one side (me) which were not present nor implied within the debate. Secondly he person then had another vote removed for votebombing which coincidentally only came around five minutes after I had yet again expressed an alternative religious opinion on the forum. And in this debate the user made a "third" borderline vote and needlessly expressed intentions to attempt to actually award the victory to Benjamin. I say needlessly because he had absolutely no reason to voice those intentions. However this vote also contains elements of a fluff vote as it contains his own arguments which were never raised by Benjamin nor myself. Although the voting policy does appear to allow for a voter to award a tie even in the instance that one player has actually conceeded, it is yet again borderline, and at the end of this voters vote he has made it quite clear that he intended to award Benjamin with the crucial point that would see him win the debate and has went to the voting policy only to find out that the policy will not actually allow him to award Benjamin with a victory, and so he ends it (nope, not gonna do that). However the intentions are surely quite clear. This voter has now ignored two forfeitures, had a vote removed for vote bombing and ignored a concession in order to vote against me. So the reason I reported this is so that it is noted for my future debates that I may have a user that is actually voting against me due to bias. P.S I have no idea why the voter decided to include his intentions to award Benjamin with the conduct point. But he did and the intentions are clear... I have no problems with Benjamin however.
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>Reported Vote: fauxlaw // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded:
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:
Preempting possible complaints: This being a concession debate, it's easy to get a ton of votes for a good safety net for the presumptive winner. The vote in question is tied but looks like it gives a lot of detail. If that detail was slightly abusive to the presumptive winner, then be glad the voter in question now has no power to cast a vote which assigns points (if it called him a bunch of names or something, let me know and I'll reevaluate).
The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
There are three types of tied votes:
(1) Ones which allot zero points. They have no meaningful impact on the debate outcome, and are thus only moderated if warranted for other reasons.
(2) Ones which cancel themselves out. While the category assignments may serve as feedback to the debaters, there is no still meaningful impact for moderation consider. These are in essence the same as the previous type.
(3) Votes which leave arguments tied, but assign other categories. While these need not meet the sufficiency standards for an argument vote, they must still evaluate arguments enough to justify no clear winner. There is however an exception for repeated forfeitures allowing conduct only with no further explanation.
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Oh boy, your votes are truly epic. I wonder why anyone bothers to read debates when they could instead be reading your votes.
Your position is the correct one. Keep running in circles and add on more logic or credibility to your arguments. Think about the crux of Con's ideas.
Is this the time for giving up?
Once the debate is over, I'll point em' all out. Until then, its your opponent's responsibility to do so.
Please point me towards a factual mistake in my argument. If you are only referring to the general cherry-picking of topic and information, then you must understand that I deliberately try to debate false statements. Like the Earth being flat. Of course, I cherry-pick in these kinds of debates.
As I said, your cherry picking has improved, as you just now demonstrated. If you truly don't know what the word means in regards to debate, I would advise that you brush up on your fallacies. You deliberately choose "the most desirably" quotes or sources for your points while completely ignoring info to the contrary, not to mention that half of your sources don't even back you up... which isn't cherry-picking its more like... lying.
Thank you for the compliment, Theweakeredge.
"""
Definition of cherry-pick [merriam-mebster]
intransitive verb
: to select the best or most desirable
"""
If you used the word in a negative sense, please elaborate on what I am doing wrong.
I see your cherry picking has only improved, lmao
Too vague. Are we including the slavery, the 40 year war, the amount of people (millions), etc.?