Instigator / Pro

1417

rating

debates

24.07%

won

Topic

#3429

It should be legal to fly the confederate flag

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

Conservallectual

Tags

Politics

Parameters

Publication date: 05.09.2022 08:50PM
Last updated date: 05.22.2022 11:38AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Novice

1597

rating

debates

65.91%

won

Description

Rules: do not commit these fallacies:https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
If either pro or con commits these fallacies then his arguments are weakened
if either pro or con can't argue without having to commit these fallacies then he/she lost before the debate has ended.
These rules should also apply to I the creator of the debate and you are as free as you wish to tell me if I broke my rules and you are mandated to report when I do.

Rules for the voters:
Please read each sides arguments carefully before voting, do not vote just because you agree with pro/con
Be nice to other voters
respect both pro and con.

Round 1

Conservallectual

05.10.2022 01:06AM

Pro

Okay here's my argument:

1. Even if it is hate speech(which answer wether or not it is in the next argument), the supreme court ruled in Matal vs Tam that hate speech is free speech. Do I agree with this ruling, of course. Why? Well not because I'm hateful person but because the right to express a dissenting opinion without censorship is a basic human right protected by the first amendment. What is not allowed are hate crimes, like shooting up a synagogue or killing black people. Any speech that does not incite a riot or directly cause physical harm to anyone is free speech. A flag is a symbol of speech. If racists protest peacefully they are not physically hurting anyone(even if we disagree with their beliefs). A flag is not a weapon, it can't hurt or kill people, the only way hurt someone with flag is to stab them with the flag pole(which something nobody would do).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_in_the_United_States#:~:text=In%20a%20Supreme%20Court%20case,basis%20of%20the%20speaker's%20viewpoint.

2. The confederate flag is not a symbol of hatred for these reasons:

>1. This is not the real official confederate flag https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/808223_062615-cc-confederate-flag-thumb.jpg?w=1280&r=16%3A9 this is just a confederate battle flag that got more popular than the actual flag( https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx7foCCX4AEi0XV.jpg) the real flags include the stars and bars, the stainless banner, and finally the blood stained banner.

>2. It wasn't originally used by racists, it was originally used a symbol of southern pride and independence and the the racists appropriated the flag. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/19/does-the-confederate-flag-breed-racism/the-confederate-flag-is-a-matter-of-pride-and-heritage-not-hatred

>3. Not all slave states joined the confederacy(these states are Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri).

> 4. Most southern white farmers owned few or no slaves. The rich farmers owned more slaves than poorer farmers.

>5. According to https://ultimateflags.com/blog/10-facts-confederate-flag-prove-not-racism/ "In 2015, CNN investigated the matter of how people perceive the flag. The results surprised the critics. The survey found that more than half of Americans don’t think the flag is racist. Instead, they see the flag as a symbol of Southern American pride. The results of the 2015 study were virtually unchanged from a previous study conducted in 2000." why would one censor a flag if nobody wants to censor it.

> 6. I don't believe in the myth of the lost cause but although slavery was the main issue of the civil war, there were also other factors at play such as state’s rights, taxes, tariffs and outright political power.

> 7. The very fact that it's a controversial flag, controversial things divide people by opinion, if you try to please one side, the other will get mad.

even if you debunk the second argument, the 1st argument still works.

Novice

05.12.2022 01:04AM

Con

RESOLVED: It should be legal to fly the confederate flag

FRAMEWORK

PRO is the instigator, meaning he typically bears responsibility for establishing the definitions of terms or an established framework, however my opponent fails to do so. It is a good thing that most of the resolution relies on commonplace terms
legal: permitted by law
should: be used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.
confederate flag: Today’s Confederate flag has a red background with blue bars in the shape of an X that displays 13 white stars. These white stars represent the 13 states of the Confederacy — the group of 13 southern states that fought against the United States during the Civil War.

INTERPRETATION OF THE RESOLUTION

Legal in itself is an extremely broad idea.
CON argues that it should be legal to fly the confederate flag. The only way to interpret the resolution is to conclude that CON believes that it should be legal in contexts that apply to freedom of expression, this is anything that excludes private property where it does not apply. CON does not indicate a clause like "PRIME FACIE," or "ON BALANCE." Therefore, the resolution must apply to all of these contexts.
The resolution also implies that there is an "obligation, duty, or correctness" (should) towards making the confederate flag illegal in any case that freedom of speech is said to apply.
To be clear if I can show any context where it should not be legal to fly the confederate flag that applies to the standard permissibility it is granted under free speech the resolution of the debate fails, and I have won.

TREASON

The confederate flag is a literal racist hate symbol of white supremacy [2]. But I argue it is more than just that, it is a symbol of treason itself. The Confederacy were traitors who betrayed the United States. Given that it is a symbol of betrayal of the country, there is absolutely no reason it should be made legal.

PUBLIC PROPERTY

The Confederate flag should not be legally sold or displayed on public property because it is a symbol of racial hate and white supremacy.
Public property is owned by the state, that is the government. The government should oppose symbols of treason because they represent betrayal to the country itself, therefore it should be illegal to display the flag on public property.
States in the US are already starting to understand how reasonable and wise doing this is. For example, the "confederate flag banned from being sold or displayed on state property in New York" [3].
CON must present a counter as to why this should not be the case or the resolution has already failed because the public property falls under the jurisdiction of free speech. For example, you can film people who did not consent if you are on public property, but it is illegal otherwise [4].

REBUTTAL

CON: "The confederate flag is not a symbol of hatred for these reasons"

By saying this himself CON is admitting that if the confederate flag was a symbol of hatred that would justify making it illegal as this is the main point he builds his case around.
However as shown in source two, the Anti Defamation League itself says that the confederate flag is a racist hate symbol in its identification list of hate symbols. The flag is also carried in rallies of other white supremacists, hate, and racist groups like neo Nazis, the KKK, white nationalists, and the alt-right as the ADL shows. People frequently use it to salute Hitler.

CON: "The survey found that more than half of Americans don’t think the flag is racist. Instead, they see the flag as a symbol of Southern American pride."

Actually, CON's own supported region disagrees with him. According to Forbes "Majority Of Southerners Now View The Confederate Flag As A Racist Symbol, Poll Finds" [5]. Most of the south itself sees it for the racist, white supremacist, neo nazi symbol it is.

SOURCES

Round 2

Conservallectual

05.13.2022 11:38AM

Pro

Argument:

You “The confederate flag is a literal racist hate symbol of white supremacy [2]. But I argue it is more than just that, it is a symbol of treason itself. The Confederacy were traitors who betrayed the United States. Given that it is a symbol of betrayal of the country, there is absolutely no reason it should be made legal.”

You again: “The Confederate flag should not be legally sold or displayed on public property because it is a symbol of racial hate and white supremacy. “

I have already said, no matter how racist is a symbol is it should still be legal to show it because of the 1st amendment rights. I have already answered that in my first argument.

As for wether it’s hate speech, well most don’t actually view the flag that way and racist groups only later adopted the flag as their symbol.

You: “By saying this himself CON is admitting that if the confederate flag was a symbol of hatred that would justify making it illegal as this is the main point he builds his case around.”

Me: this argument is brainless, I did not admit that the flag was a hate symbol as I don’t believe it was a hate symbol. I just stated that even if it was a hate symbol it should still be a legal symbol to be bought and sold because of free speech.

You: “However as shown in source two, the Anti Defamation League itself says that the confederate flag is a racist hate symbol in its identification list of hate symbols. The flag is also carried in rallies of other white supremacists, hate, and racist groups like neo Nazis, the KKK, white nationalists, and the alt-right as the ADL shows. People frequently use it to salute Hitler. “

ADL also admits that non racists also use the flag by saying: “Organizations such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans adopted the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage”. Regardless ADL is nowadays a far left propaganda site rather than an organization that fights Antisemitism.

You: “Actually, CON's own supported region disagrees with him. According to Forbes "Majority Of Southerners Now View The Confederate Flag As A Racist Symbol, Poll Finds" [5]. Most of the south itself sees it for the racist, white supremacist, neo nazi symbol it is. “

Me: There are many problems with this argument. First of all this is a bandwagon fallacy, if other people disagree with me, I shouldn’t have to agree with them. Second of all, I can’t truly trust the study(without more similar studies) because it disagrees with many other studies such as:

https://www.ajc.com/news/many-americans-view-confederate-flag-symbol-pride-not-racism-poll-finds/bF3SjgmwXf4QGF0B1kRhqL/?outputType=amp

And once again, even if it was a hate symbol, it is protected by the first amendment as free speech.

Novice

05.15.2022 11:38AM

Con

Forfeited

Conservallectual

05.17.2022 02:04PM

#15

vote

FLRW

05.15.2022 08:47PM

#14

According to the Anti-Defamation League, the Confederate flag is a hate symbol. They say: In 1860-61, eleven southern states seceded from the United States to protect the institution of slavery, forming the Confederate States of America and precipitating the Civil War. During the war, the Confederacy and its military forces used a variety of flags, but the flag that became most associated with the Confederacy was the so-called "battle flag." Organizations such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans adopted the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage but the flag also served as a potent symbol of slavery and white supremacy, which has caused it to be very popular among white supremacists in the 20th and 21st centuries. This popularity extends to white supremacists beyond the borders of the United States.
I will bet that Payton Gendron had one in his room.

Novice

05.15.2022 11:53AM

#13

You get some, you don't get some is the unfortunate nature of operating under a schedul;e that does not permit a bulk of activity

Novice

05.15.2022 11:41AM

#12

Everything is fair enough, I suppose

Novice

05.15.2022 11:39AM

#11

Just not able to have posted what I wanted this time

Novice

05.15.2022 11:39AM

#10

-->

@Conservallectual

I had Covid, I didn't have enough time.

Conservallectual

05.14.2022 03:25AM

I’m not a racist or neonazi but racists and neonazis have a right to free speech as long as they are doing physical harm to anyone or destroying property.

ILikePie5

05.11.2022 05:07PM

-->

@RationalMadman

I’ve seen countless Pakistani flags lol. I’m not offended by them

RationalMadman

05.11.2022 05:32AM

-->

@ILikePie5

Let's hang the flag of Pakistan up in your household okay?

ILikePie5

05.11.2022 04:40AM

Only people who want to get offended by a flag get offended. It’s just a flag dude. Deal with it

Conservallectual

05.11.2022 12:33AM

I am not a fan of people who take to long to make rebuttals.

Conservallectual

05.10.2022 01:32AM

As a proud southerner I would proudly hang a confederate flag(or any conservative or American flag for that manner) if I could on my room.

Intelligence_06

05.10.2022 12:04AM

If I am a proud mississippian(if that is how it is spelt), then flying the mississippi flag, which contains the confederate flag actually, shouldn't be illegal.

Novice

05.09.2022 11:18PM

Sure, I mean, I don't see anything wrong with flying the confederate flag. It has a nice design as well.

Barney

05.09.2022 08:54PM

It's protected freedom of speech, further it's one of the best ways to advertise your front window as brick donation drop off center.

Jeff_Goldblum

05.20.2022 11:06PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Forfeiture

Barney

05.15.2022 03:20PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Forfeiture.