Instigator / Pro
rayhan16's avatar
7
rayhan16
1500
rating
25
debates
42.0%
won
Topic
#3558

Islam is more true than Christianity

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
6
Better sources
2
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
0
2

After 2 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...

Novice_II
Tags
Religion
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
One day
Max argument characters
20,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
Novice_II's avatar
14
Novice_II
1890
rating
98
debates
93.37%
won
Description

Islam is more true than Christianity

Round 1
rayhan16's avatar
rayhan16
Pro
#1
Overview

Islam is a religion which is similar to Christianity however Muslims believe that is is the truth. Christianity has flaws, the Bible has flaws. A true religion has no faults, no flaws. There is are no contradictions in the Quran. There are in the Bible, which I will get into. The trinity is flawed, I will get into this as well. Lets begin. 

Contradictions in the Bible

1. 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30
“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

2. “with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26
“The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19

3. “thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. ” — Exodus 21:23-25
“ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” — Matthew 5:39

4. “This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.” — Genesis 17:10
“if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” — Galatians 5:2

5. “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20
“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5

6. “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” — James 1:13
“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…” — Genesis 22:1

7. “he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. ” — Job 7:9
“the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth….” — John 5:28-29

8. Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20).
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

9. The women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples (Matthew 28:8).
When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others (Luke 24:9).

10. No one has ever seen God (1 John 4:12).
No man has seen or can see [God] (1 Timothy 6:16).
The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day (Genesis 18:1).
The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend (Exodus 33:11).

11. Jacob [was] the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah (Matthew 1:16).
Jesus . . . was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli (Luke 3:23).

 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— Galatians 3:13
So why did God raise up a cursed man?



There are many others. Maybe the context of some of them must be included and this is up to Con to include. However I have given the quotes. I would like each of these to be explained. 

The Trinity

The trinity is very confusing. God has attributes. He is all knowing, he is all powerful etc. When Jesus comes on earth, he is God right? But he was limited. He was not all powerful as he was a human, he was not all knowing as he did not know the hour etc. God needs to possess all these qualities always otherwise he was not God. 

Jesus also never told anyone to worship him
All the Prophets worshipped the father, no one worshipped Jesus

I have made some points, over to you Con




Novice_II's avatar
Novice_II
Con
#2
a. default to con
  • Pro obviously bears the burden of proof in its entirety. In such burden is not upheld beyond any proportion of reasonable doubt, the resolution should default the to contender position. 

b. evidence
  • By what standard do we evaluate whether religion is more true than another? This is of course is pro's burden to stipulate. I posit that we should use the factor of historical accuracy and plan to make arguments with such thus forward. 

Rebuttal
True religion has no faults, no flaws.
  • Note: I have not set this standard, pro has set it for himself.
  • If I show that Islam has one flaw, pro must concede that Islam is not a true religion. I plan to do so in our subsequent round of argumentation as our cases have been generally introductory. 

Contradictions
Plagiarism
  • Pro clearly plagiarized this entire section from atheists.org. 
  • As plagiarized it in its entirety, this essentially discards these points and gives con the point of conduct. 

The Trinity
  • Pro's argument is: 
    • p1. If Christianity has the trinity and Islam does not, Islam is more true than Christianity. 
    • p2. Christianity has the trinity and Islam does not
    • c. Islam is more true than Christianity. 
  • This is a non-sequitur. What about the trinity makes Christianity less true? 
Jesus also never told anyone to worship him
  • Jesus had not yet conclusively revealed himself to be God in the flesh in the majority of the Gospels. 
  • He eventually reveals and establishes this in Matthew 28:17 which says "when they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." When Jesus revealed himself as divine, the worship came without a demand. He doesn't literally need to say worship me in order for people to know he is a divine figure as this was revealed to the hears of men after his resurrection. 

Sources
  1. https://www.catholic.com/

Round 2
rayhan16's avatar
rayhan16
Pro
#3
  • If I show that Islam has one flaw, pro must concede that Islam is not a true religion. I plan to do so in our subsequent round of argumentation as our cases have been generally introductory. 
Please show how Islam has any flaws. Any contradictions that you may point out are just misconceptions. The sperm verse, the days verse, all these are just misconceptions. I will answer any of these in my final round after Con has provided me with just 1 flaw. 

  • Pro clearly plagiarized this entire section from atheists.org. 
  • As plagiarized it in its entirety, this essentially discards these points and gives con the point of conduct. 
Ask yourselves this question. How could I plagiarize quotes from the Bible? Are these quotes not in the Bible? Of course I would have to copy them and put them into my argument, it is not plagiarism. As you said I have plagiarized, I will now go to the Bible, and pick the same quotes from there. Then will you be happy? Lets go. 

Contradictions of the Bible 

Genesis 32:30- So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
John 1:18-No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son

Matthew 19:26- Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Judges 1:19-The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.

Exodus 21:23- eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Matthew 5:29- But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Genesis 17:10-This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Galatians 5:2-Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

Ezekiel 18:20-nor will the parent share the guilt of the child- Context- The Souls Who's Sins Will Die- and a father will not bear the inequity of the son
Exodus 20:5-for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents- Context- 10 Commandments-visiting the inequity of the fathers on their children

Job 7:9- As a cloud vanishes and is gone, so one who goes down to the grave does not return.
John 5:28-29-for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth

Ecclesiastes 7:20- Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.
Romans 3:23- for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Matthew 28:8-So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples.
Luke 24:9-When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others.

1 John 4:12-No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
1 Timothy 6:16-who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Genesis 18:1- The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Exodus 33:11-The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

Matthew 1:16-and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
Luke 3:23-Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Galatians 3:13-Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
Why would God raise a cursed man?

Now I will give the reference. 
So as you have seen, I have not plagiarized anything. I just gave quotes from the Bible. Now it is up to Con to prove me wrong by answering all these quotes sufficiently. And the challenge to Con is to bring anything similar to these contradictions from the Quran.  The word of God cannot have any errors nor contradictions in it. Lets move on. 

What about the trinity makes Christianity less true? 
The trinity is confusing. Was Jesus 100% God when he came onto earth? If he was then how did he not know the hour? How did he not know who touched him? Why did he need to perform a miracle twice? Why did he worship God? Can God have a God? 

The idea of the trinity is very confusing. There cannot be 2 entities that are 100% God. I will give you guys an example. God is omnipotent. This means the most powerful/all powerful. There is also a ruling out on every single other entity except God on this. Which means there is nothing that is more powerful than God. Not only was Jesus restricted and confined to the laws of the earth, going to the toilet, was born and died, but he cannot be God as there can only be one entity that is all powerful. 

There have been some examples given to me by other Christians. Some say think of Jesus as the arm of a human body. The arm is Jesus and the whole body is the Father. Which means that Jesus is a part of God but not separate. However this theory is flawed. If you chop the arm off, then not only will Jesus be separated, the rest of the body will be left weaker and thus not be all powerful. This theory basically means that the father relies on Jesus to possess the qualities such as omnipotence. But this is illogical as God does not need to rely on anything. 

Another example that I have been given by another Christian is this. They said, draw a 1m box. Put 1 foot inside and 1 foot outside. The foot inside is Jesus as he is entering the earth however the rest of the body is out. However this again is illogical. The reason being is because if you put that 1 foot in, it is occupied. And God cannot do anything with that foot as it is already in and occupied by God. You may say God is omnipotent but he is only omnipotent when He can do things which befits his majesty. This is the Muslim belief. God cannot cease to exist. Because even though He can do anything and is all powerful, if he ceases to exist, it will make Him weaker than before. And God is not weak. 

  • He eventually reveals and establishes this in Matthew 28:17 which says "when they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." When Jesus revealed himself as divine, the worship came without a demand. He doesn't literally need to say worship me in order for people to know he is a divine figure as this was revealed to the hears of men after his resurrection. 
Is it Jesus that says this, or is it the author of Matthew? By the way, may I add, the author of Matthew is unknown. The author of John and Luke are also unknown. 

John 5:19-Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

If the son can do nothing by himself, he is not God. Because God can do everything by himself. How is Jesus God when he relied on the father to do things? Just more proof that the trinity is flawed. 

He doesn't literally need to say worship me in order for people to know he is a divine figure as this was revealed to the hears of men after his resurrection. 
If my salvation from hell depends on believing that Jesus is God, it needs to be explicitly, cut clear, as clear as day needs to say, worship me, I am Jesus and I am God. This is a fundamental belief. All of Muslims fundamental beliefs that decide between heaven or hell are clear cut, however this one from Jesus does not exist. As Jesus is not God. He needs to say clearly to worship him because billions of humans salvations depend on this. Or is God selfish and makes humans rely on blind faith?

When was the earliest manuscript from the new testament? The 4th century. What was happening for 400 years?

Islam 

Let me tell you guys about Islam. 

The Quran has never been changed
There are prophecies and miracles, I will state them. 
A Muslim believes in 1 God, and 1 God only. 

Miracles and Prophecies 

21:30- Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and then We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

This is describing the big bang theory. Both heavens and the earth were a singularity, then they were separated, the big bang. Now, what is the first thing which astronomers find on different planets. Water. They try to find water as it is the source of? Life. Chance?

And We did certainly create the heavens and earth and what is between them in six days 50:38
How can you disbelieve in the One Who created the earth in two Days- 41:9

Now this is a very special miracle. You may think this is a contradiction however fear not. The Quran contains no contradictions. Let me explain. The first quote is talking about the universe. The second is talking just about the earth. Days are not specified in the Quran, many examples of this, 1 example is somewhere in the Quran it states 1 day is 50,000 years. However it varies. So days mean 'periods of time'. Now it took 2 periods of time to make the earth and 6 to make the universe. 2:6. Lets simplify this ratio. 1:3. Now if we apply this to the quotes, it means the earth is 1/3 as old as the universe. And scientists recently discovered this in the last few years. Amazing. Chance?

51:48-And We have built the heaven with might and We continue to expand it indeed.

This is the miracle of the expansion of the universe which has been recently discovered. Chance?

There are plenty more, I will save the rest for round 3 so Con please remind me there, I sometimes forget. 

I CHALLENGE CON TO BRING ME 1 CONTRADICTION IN THE QURAN. IF HE FINDS 1, I WILL LEAVE ISLAM. 
It is impossible. 


I think I have satisfied the BoP as I stated the word of God has no contradictions nor errors. The Bible does so therefore not the word of God. The Quran does not. 

I am also expecting Con to answer all the contradictions that I have 'plagiarized' from the Bible. 

Over to you Con



Novice_II's avatar
Novice_II
Con
#4
x. Overview
  • Simply put nothing in this round proves that Islam is more true than Christianity. Every notion pro produces is a non sequitur and if I left my round to this overview alone I would be winning the debate. 
  • To make some principal notes on the pro's arguments:
  1. I don't understand the trinity therefore Islam is more true than Islam (obviously doesn't follow). 
  2. Pro argues the bible has contradictions but hasn't shown a single one, and claims that the Quran has no contradictions and hasn't shown evidence of that either. 

b.1 Historical accuracy
  • One particularly objective way we can analyze truth claims about religion is its historical accuracy. I posit that the foundation of the Christian faith has presented itself as a document that strongly coincides with historical study, archeology, and evaluation
  • Archeologically, "out of the multitude of archaeological discoveries related to the Bible, consider a few examples to illustrate the remarkable external substantiation of biblical claims. Excavations at Nuzi (1925-41), Mari (discovered in 1933), and Alalakh (1937-39; 1946-49) provide helpful background information that fits well with the Genesis stories of the patriarchal period." [3] 
  • Historically, even the Smithsonian Museum states that "on the other hand, much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological work. For the most part, historical events described took place and the peoples cited really existed" [4] 
  • For such a credible historical source to inform us of this, only confirms the historical accuracy of the Bible. 

c. "The Quran has never been changed"
  • Luke Wayne has already shown this to be incorrect. 
A 10th-century manuscript known as BNF Arabe 370a has several places where the original text has been erased and replaced with text matching the modern reading in different handwriting. The interesting thing is that, in each of these places, the modern text is too long to fit into the erased space and must be crammed in with smaller print.13 This seems to indicate that the manuscript originally preserved a text that was in several places shorter (and therefore obviously different) than the text we have today. These kinds of examples show that, while the overall text of the Quran appears to be rather stable for most of its history, in the past there were certainly readings substantively different than what we have today.

Rebuttal
Plagiarism
I have not plagiarized anything
  • Last time I checked "plagiarism is the representation of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions as one's own original work," which is exactly what you did in round one by copying word for word from this website out of laziness to make your own argument. I appeal to the voter's sense of basic reasoning to recognize such as a conduct violation and dispense the respective points to the contender. 

Contradictions
  • Because these were previously plagiarized we can discard these points in their entirety. I am simply addressing them for fun. Voters should not take this as giving credence to pro's arguments and can also dismiss this section for assorted reasons for decisions. 

  1. This isn't a contradiction, there are different contexts assertions are made within any form of conversation. John 1:18 is referring to God's face in his glory or fullness, a feat that would kill an individual. Jacob, like many people, saw a manifestation of God in a different form [8]. God can appeal angelically, or even mortally, there are many manifestations of him. 
  2. There is no contradiction here. Proposition a is that with God, all things are possible. Proposition b is that Judah did not achieve x end with God on their side. That is not a logical contradiction as the negation of proposition a does not conflict with its affirmation. Something can be possible and still not happen. I can jump off a bridge, it's possible, but it won't happen, for example. For many different reasons, God allowed the Jews to lose many battles [9], reasons that could potentially benefit them in the long term. 
  3. This is simply explained by the fulfillment of the past stipulations of Mosaic law with the new covenant and the coming of Jesus Christ, who of course, perfected them [5]. 
  4. A similar response goes to the case of circumcision. Both Peter and James emphasized the idea of spiritual circumcision to the gentiles, a simple product of following and keeping God's word. In the new covenant, physical circumcision is not required, but "circumcision," of one's heart to the holy spirit [6]. 
  5. This is just really lazy reading. Job is speaking of physical death and John is prophesying about the resurrection and return of Christ in which death will be abolished and Christ will judge the living and the dead.
  6. I have to ask, did you even read these two verses? They are both saying the same message, what do you think the contradiction is here? 
  7. Weird, again, there isn't even a contradiction in these two verses. Can you explain what you believe the two propositions that come in logical contradiction are? 
  8. This is the same thing as #1, so the same source, [8] is also applicable here. Moses spoke to god in different manifestations and not face to face in his fullness of glory as no one can survive seeing this. The Lord appeared to Abraham in a mortal form as a man if you were to read just a few verses subsequent. 
  9. Someone can have both a father and a father-in-law. Jacob's father was Jacob and his father-in-law was Heli.
  10. This is just a question, not a contradiction. To answer Jesus accumulated the sins of the world upon himself as a perfect sacrifice, so he was "cursed" in the sense of being temporarily removed from the presence of God the father but redeemed as the salvation of mankind, in essence, fulfilling the scripture

Trinity
The trinity is confusing.
  • I could say: 
    • p1. Cogusing things are not true or less true.
    • p2. Gravity is confusing.
    • c. Gravity is not true or less true.
  • Something being confusing to you doesn't prove it is more or less true than anything else. This is frankly a non sequitur. 
  • An explanation of the trinity is best understood as a divine nature or substance in which instantiations or persons are of the same divine essence/nature. Consubstantial. Ontological essence can be understood as substance and the trinity ontology of a person is a being who regards and expresses themself personally but is also full of the same ontological essence. 
Is it Jesus that says this, or is it the author of Matthew? 
  • Matthew is describing the events that occurred in reality. Also, the books were written by their respective apostles and John the baptist. 
John 5:19-Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
  • Right, because Jesus is God (ontological essence). This is actually just evidence of the trinity. Jesus acts in correspondence with God. 

Miracles and prophecies
  1. No, you are just reading a passage and saying it describes the big bang theory. That doesn't really mean much. Besides, in the Bible God separated the heavens and earth as well (Genesis 1:1-25) in the same fashion "Then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.” And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters of the earth from the waters of the heavens."
  2. I hate to break it to you, but if "Allah," created these just days apart that would indicate that the universe is only a few days older than earth. You don't provide evidence for a day actually meaning something else so I don't know what to say there. 
  3. The Bible says the same thing in Isaiah 40:22, Jeremiah 10:12, and Isaiah 45:12. I don't know if both texts indicate a coincidence or a prophecy congruent with reality. 
  4. Lastly, many Bible prophecies have been fulfilled. So many. I can even document more interesting ones next round. 

Sources
  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/
  2. https://en.wikipedia.org/
  3. https://bible.org/article/
  4. https://moam.info/
  5. https://www.catholic.com/
  6. https://www.christianity.com/
  7. https://answersingenesis.org/
  8. http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/


Round 3
rayhan16's avatar
rayhan16
Pro
#5
Very interesting things being said. Let me address all of them. 

Simply put nothing in this round proves that Islam is more true than Christianity
I have proved that the Bible has contradictions. You have yet to shown me 1 Quranic contradiction. And there is no point now, as I cannot show you why you are wrong. Plus I will answer all the 'supposed rebuttals' that you had on the contradictions. Therefore, a book which has contradictions is not the word of God, therefore Islam is more true than Christianity. 

  1. I don't understand the trinity therefore Islam is more true than Islam (obviously doesn't follow). 
It is not that. It is because your own followers do not understand it. Plus my salvation relies on it, so why is it open to interpretation? Name me 1 thing which my salvation relies on that is confusing and not agreed upon and not explicitly stated in the Quran. You can only name me the 5 pillars of faith and the belief in Shirk. That is all. These are not the same as the trinity as it is clear and agreed upon. 

  1. Pro argues the bible has contradictions but hasn't shown a single one, and claims that the Quran has no contradictions and hasn't shown evidence of that either. 
I have sent a lot. If the Quran has no contradictions, what am I supposed to send? Non-contradictions? That would make no sense. Absurd point to make there. It is in fact upon you to show me contradictions so I can answer however it is too late now as I have no arguments left. 

religion is its historical accuracy. 
Yes this is one thing I should challenge. Christianity and its historical accuracy. Where was the New Testament in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century? In fact the earliest manuscript was in the 4th century. So if you do not even know what happened to your book when it disappeared, how are you supposed to gather the fact that it is the true word of God? There are actually numerical mistakes. The word of God should not have numerical mistakes should it? It would mean that it has not been preserved. And if it has not been preserved, it has been changed. 

Now I am going to go to biblehub.com. Before Con accuses me for plagiarizing, I will get the quotes directly from the source, I will show 3 examples of numerical contradictions, there are many more, however I want to respond to all other points and I have a football match to watch. 

KJV, why there are so many versions I have no idea. 1 version of the Quran. Yes you have Hafs and Warsh but these are because it is easily pronounced if you are not an Arabic speaker. The Bible is in English as well, easily pronounced. As well as this, Jesus spoke Aramaic and the original manuscripts from 4th century was in? Greek. 

2 Samuel 8:4-And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots.
1 Chronicles 18:4-And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots

2 Samuel 24:9- Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to the king. And there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
1 Chronicles 21:5-Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to David. All Israel had one million one hundred thousand men who drew the sword, and Judah had four hundred and seventy thousand men who drew the sword.

1 Kings 4:26-Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
2 Chronicles 9:25-And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.


This is only some of the numerical contradictions. I would like Con to answer these as well. 

Before Con brings up the 'days' in the Quran, days are not specified in the Quran. There is the answer for that. The term day was not a 24 hour period. 

  • Luke Wayne has already shown this to be incorrect. 
Incorrect. Luke Wayne has tried to show this to be incorrect but failed. 
First point that Luke Wayne makes is that the Quran has errors in the Warsh versions. Now this is not true and has not given any proof for his claims. Hafs and Warsh are not 2 different Qurans. As the Quran is in Arabic, the Warsh version is to let people read it with ease for the pronunciation purposes. There are no copyist errors in the Quran, Luke Wayne has failed to name any like I have done for the Bible. Now there is no book like the Quran. This is why it is special. The linguistics and the pronunciations are amazing. 1 word can equate to a sentence, that is how beautiful it is. Now because it is so unique, very hard to change it without changing the meaning. So this is where Hafs and Warsh comes into play. I do not want to waste my time talking about this so please do your research mate. 

Luke then quotes 3:158 and says that there is a meaning that is the opposite of what it says, again not true. No evidence shown too. Luke then makes a claim which I cannot even be bothered to copy so please look it up yourselves, no evidence. Another claim, no evidence. 

Then the most embarrassing thing happens to Luke Wayne. He quotes a hadith that talks about an added verse. There is no added verse now, it was added back then when it was being made into a book, so what's the point?

Then he talks about the missing verse. The Hadith he quoted says IF people forget it, does not mean people forgot it. The sheep bit, it is known now, by many scholars that it is not authentic. So Luke Wayne again lies here and says there is a missing verse when there is not. 

His next part about the different versions makes no sense. I am struggling to comprehend what he is saying and what he means. There is no different version of the Quran that alters the meanings or has errors and contradictions etc. Waffler. 

So Luke Wayne (A known Christian and known Islam opposer) knows more about the Quran than Muslim scholars who have studied these things for years do. Embarrassing for you to even quote it from Luke Wayne. His arguments have been ripped to shreds by many Muslims. 

I appeal to the voter's sense of basic reasoning to recognize such as a conduct violation and dispense the respective points to the contender. 
So I cannot copy quotes? Even if they were from another website, how is that plagiarizing? Is it not the same as the one in the Bible? Even if it is not, I wrote all the quotes again, took my time picking each quote from Biblehub.com and now I will answer your responses.

  • Because these were previously plagiarized we can discard these points in their entirety. I am simply addressing them for fun. Voters should not take this as giving credence to pro's arguments and can also dismiss this section for assorted reasons for decisions. 
No, no and no. You think that will happen? Voters, please do not dismiss this section as I have not plagiarized, just a case of Con trying to be smart and failing to do so. I have copied each quote word for word from Biblehub.com or is that not allowed? Am I supposed to put quotes from the Bible into my own words? Because then Con will call me out on this saying why have you altered the meanings? So please do not fall for Cons manipulative nature, it is not needed here. 

1. This isn't a contradiction, there are different contexts assertions are made within any form of conversation. John 1:18 is referring to God's face in his glory or fullness, a feat that would kill an individual. Jacob, like many people, saw a manifestation of God in a different form [8]. God can appeal angelically, or even mortally, there are many manifestations of him. 
Con makes no sense here. It says he sees God face to face meaning he sees the literal God. It is not referring to his glory, this is a lie. And then it also says his life was spared. You made a point where if someone saw God's face, it would kill him? His life was spared, why? This is a contradiction. 

2. There is no contradiction here. Proposition a is that with God, all things are possible. Proposition b is that Judah did not achieve x end with God on their side. That is not a logical contradiction as the negation of proposition a does not conflict with its affirmation. Something can be possible and still not happen. I can jump off a bridge, it's possible, but it won't happen, for example. For many different reasons, God allowed the Jews to lose many battles [9], reasons that could potentially benefit them in the long term. 
It states the reason why God could not do it. 'because they had chariots fitted with iron.'.  This is the reason. It does not say he could do it but he did not want to. It states the reason. Contradiction. 

3. This is simply explained by the fulfilment of the past stipulations of Mosaic law with the new covenant and the coming of Jesus Christ, who of course, perfected them [5]. 
But Jesus was surely the God of the Old Testament? There is no point adding big words into this, you are beating around the bush. It went from eye to eye to turn the other cheek. Clear contradiction. Con has not answered this in the slightest, complete different teaching. If the Old Testament was the word of God and Jesus then it would be perfect, no errors and no contradictions. This is a contradiction. 

4. A similar response goes to the case of circumcision. Both Peter and James emphasized the idea of spiritual circumcision to the gentiles, a simple product of following and keeping God's word. In the new covenant, physical circumcision is not required, but "circumcision," of one's heart to the holy spirit [6]. 
I do not know much of this 'spiritual circumcision' so I will give Con the benefit of the doubt here.
5. This is just really lazy reading. Job is speaking of physical death and John is prophesying about the resurrection and return of Christ in which death will be abolished and Christ will judge the living and the dead.
Who is the author of John?

6.I have to ask, did you even read these two verses? They are both saying the same message, what do you think the contradiction is here? 
It states in one verse where no one will return and the other they will come forth. Contradiction

7. Weird, again, there isn't even a contradiction in these two verses. Can you explain what you believe the two propositions that come in logical contradiction are? 
Do you think Jesus has sinned? And the other Prophets? Because Muslims do not. 

8. This is the same thing as #1, so the same source, [8] is also applicable here. Moses spoke to god in different manifestations and not face to face in his fullness of glory as no one can survive seeing this. The Lord appeared to Abraham in a mortal form as a man if you were to read just a few verses subsequent. 
Answered this at #1. 

9. Someone can have both a father and a father-in-law. Jacob's father was Jacob and his father-in-law was Heli.
Jacobs father was himself? Also if you look at the genealogy of Jesus from account of Matthew and Luke, Matthew's is subsequently longer. Human error? Bible cannot have human error. Bible has to be the preserved word of God, or it is not the word of God. 

10. This is just a question, not a contradiction. To answer Jesus accumulated the sins of the world upon himself as a perfect sacrifice, so he was "cursed" in the sense of being temporarily removed from the presence of God the father but redeemed as the salvation of mankind, in essence, fulfilling the scripture
He was cursed full stop. Then the father raised him up as cursed, but why would the father raise up a cursed man? Even David Wood was struggling to answer this. Let me send you a link, please watch it, it is worth it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHn3y9FWoNg

  • Something being confusing to you doesn't prove it is more or less true than anything else. This is frankly a non sequitur. 
Something that relies on my salvation cannot be confusing. Cannot be weird. Jesus cannot be 100% human and 100% God because if someone is 100% human then he has got the humanistic characteristics such as eating and going to the toilet and sleeping etc. And God cannot do these things which contradict to his attributes. But the Christian God did also rest, so...

  • Matthew is describing the events that occurred in reality. Also, the books were written by their respective apostles and John the baptist. 
Proof? There is none. The authors of the 4 gospels are unknown, you cannot say anything to disprove this. Why would I follow a book where I do not know who the authors are? Yet another thing to prove Christianity is false. 

An explanation of the trinity is best understood as a divine nature or substance in which instantiations or persons are of the same divine essence/nature
there is the eed, there is the water, the body, the persons etc etc. Too much theories, no way to prove it. I want it from the Bible. I want proof that Jesus is God from the Bible. John 1:1 does not help. Because the word is not referring to Jesus. And if it was, it is a contradiction. Because then it would be 'in the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was God and Jesus was with God. Plus is the author of John known? Please do not hide from this question. The author of John is unknown so how do you know if he is reliable? Then also please do not use that I am verse either. Because we both know, that in Greek or Hebrew or whatever the language it, it does not refer to I am as Yahweh and that is a personal name for God. So if it does not say Yahweh in the language translation, it is not God saying or Jesus saying I am God. 

  • Right, because Jesus is God (ontological essence). This is actually just evidence of the trinity. Jesus acts in correspondence with God. 
Well it is not. The son can do nothing by himself. If he cannot do anything by himself, how is he God? Is God omnipotent? Is God independent? Yes and Yes. Is Jesus any of those? No. Because Jesus can only do things via the father and is dependant of His creation. 

  1. No, you are just reading a passage and saying it describes the big bang theory. That doesn't really mean much. Besides, in the Bible God separated the heavens and earth as well (Genesis 1:1-25) in the same fashion "Then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.” And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters of the earth from the waters of the heavens."
The verse in Genesis does not describe it at all. That is talking about the earth, not the universe. And the word heavens is referring to not in the universe.  The Quran is talking about the heavens and the earth and the heavens in the context of this is known as the universe. Because there was no word for universe back then in Arabic. So you are wrong, and I am right. It is talking about the Big bang. Your verse is not. 

  1. I hate to break it to you, but if "Allah," created these just days apart that would indicate that the universe is only a few days older than earth. You don't provide evidence for a day actually meaning something else so I don't know what to say there. 
As I said, a day is not specified. A day can mean 50,000 years and in one case in the Quran it states that. So a day in the Quran is defined as a 'period of time'. So thank you very much and that is another miracle.  

  1. The Bible says the same thing in Isaiah 40:22, Jeremiah 10:12, and Isaiah 45:12. I don't know if both texts indicate a coincidence or a prophecy congruent with reality. 
40:22 refers to heavens, not universe. Same with Jeremiah. Same as 45:12. Try again. 

  1. Lastly, many Bible prophecies have been fulfilled. So many. I can even document more interesting ones next round. 

Yes the Quran has many as well. Prophecies as well such as what will happen on the last day. I will link them since I do not have time to write them. 

Conclusion

The Burden of proof was for me to prove that Islam is more true than Christianity. I stated that the Holy Book must have 0 contradictions. I have found lots. Therefore, the Bible is not the word of God. I challenged Con to find me 1 contradiction of the Quran, just 1. Let me quote it. 

I said 'I CHALLENGE CON TO BRING ME 1 CONTRADICTION IN THE QURAN. IF HE FINDS 1, I WILL LEAVE ISLAM. 
It is impossible. '

Con failed to do so. I cannot respond now so I thank voters for reading this far. 

I rest my case. 
Please Vote Pro



Novice_II's avatar
Novice_II
Con
#6
x. Overview
  1. I want to draw the attention of voters to some of the conduct of this final round. Previously, I refuted all of the supposed Bible contradictions presented. Currently, most of my opponent's responses amount to "nuh uh." 
  2. Is it annoying to respond to, perhaps? If left the debate to where it currently stands my opponent has not even come close to meeting his burden, whereas if anything, I have shown that Christianity is more true than Islam based on historical accuracy.
  3. Lastly pro is bringing up many new points in the final round. Combining this with the shallow responses to my rebuttals of each contradiction that was plagiarized in the first place, this is clearly in the territory of a gish gallop. Voters would not hold be obligated to address such but as typical, I will oblige them when I can. 

b.1 Historical Accuracy
  • Dropped.
    • Con drops my whole disposition of evidence including evidence from the Smithsonian museum an extremely credible historical source on the historical accuracy of the Bible. 
    • He drops each point effectively, and in response, goes on some random tangent so we can conclude with the historical accuracy of the Bible. 
Where was the New Testament in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century? In fact the earliest manuscript was in the 4th century.
  • Citation is not provided so ignore this. There are manuscripts that date back to the early second century. 
Verdict: Pro is seeking to prove that Islam is more true than Christianity. I show evidence that the Smithsonian Museum acknowledges the Bible to be "as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories." Pro has not shown any evidence that the Quran is historically accurate in response and for all we know, it isn't. I believe I have won the debate on this point alone, but alas, we progress. 


The Quran
c. "The Quran has never been changed"
  • In his rebuttal to this, con cites no sources and responds in a seemingly incomprehensible fashion. Discard all of his claims as unsubstantiated. Extend. 
There are no copyist errors in the Quran
"we must nevertheless take into consideration that there are over 250,000 manuscripts of the Qur’an scattered all over the globe. When comparing them it is always possible to find copying mistakes here and there; this is an example of human fallibility, and has been recognized as such by authors who have written extensively on the subject of “unintentional errors.” 

c.1 Quran contradictions
I have sent a lot. If the Quran has no contradictions, what am I supposed to send? Non-contradictions? That would make no sense. Absurd point to make there. It is in fact upon you to show me contradictions so I can answer
  • Incorrect. "The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, or disinclination, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid, nor give it any credence whatsoever" [1]. 
  • Last time I checked, you claimed that "the Quran has no contradictions." As you made a claim, I don't have to prove your claim for you. Thus far, for all we know, this is an unsubstantiated claim. 

Rebuttal
Plagiarism
  • Simply extend. Pro copied and pasted his entire round one section from atheits.org. I posit that this invalidates all the bible contradiction points and I simply addressed them for fun. I appeal to voters to observe this debate where a previous opponent did the exact same thing and was punished severely for his plagiarism. 
Contradictions
  • The preface is that in each of the non-contradictions pro posted that I responded to with sources and basic logic pro essentially responds with "no," to each of them, an obvious waste of the voter's time. I suggest any reader brace him/herself for a mind-numbing analysis of "responses." 

1. This isn't a contradiction, there are different contexts assertions are made within any form of conversation. John 1:18 is referring to God's face in his glory or fullness, a feat that would kill an individual. Jacob, like many people, saw a manifestation of God in a different form [8]. God can appeal angelically, or even mortally, there are many manifestations of him. 

Con makes no sense here. It says he sees God face to face meaning he sees the literal God. It is not referring to his glory, this is a lie. And then it also says his life was spared. You made a point where if someone saw God's face, it would kill him? His life was spared, why? This is a contradiction. 
  • Extend my rebuttal. I even cite a theological source that goes through the contextual use of these terms. Sometimes God appears to people as a burning bush, as an angel, or even in a human form. When people say they saw God's face they speak of these interactions, however, no one can see God in his divine form or in his Glory [8 round 1]. 

2. There is no contradiction here. Proposition a is that with God, all things are possible. Proposition b is that Judah did not achieve x end with God on their side. That is not a logical contradiction as the negation of proposition a does not conflict with its affirmation. Something can be possible and still not happen. I can jump off a bridge, it's possible, but it won't happen, for example. For many different reasons, God allowed the Jews to lose many battles [9], reasons that could potentially benefit them in the long term. 

It states the reason why God could not do it. 'because they had chariots fitted with iron.'.  This is the reason. It does not say he could do it but he did not want to. It states the reason. 
  • Extend. This isn't even a response it's a non-response. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it actually happens or that God allows it to happen. So yes, they could not achieve X end because they had chariots fitted with iron, and it is possible that they could have regardless, but God did not allow such possibility. 

3. This is simply explained by the fulfillment of the past stipulations of Mosaic law with the new covenant and the coming of Jesus Christ, who of course, perfected them [5]. 

But Jesus was surely the God of the Old Testament? There is no point adding big words into this, you are beating around the bush. It went from eye to eye to turn the other cheek. Clear contradiction. Con has not answered this in the slightest, complete different teaching. If the Old Testament was the word of God and Jesus then it would be perfect, no errors and no contradictions. This is a contradiction. 
  • As voters can see my previous assertions of pro's responses amounting to "nuh uh," is evidently true. Extend my rebuttal. Jesus was in the old testament, but he had not descended to earth yet to save mankind. When he did he established the new covenant that perfected the majority of mosaic law and repealed the old covenant. 
  • As for perfection, I will quote Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe for you as they explain it best. "The law was perfect in its nature but imperfect in its results. It was a perfect expression of God’s righteousness, but an imperfect means of making man righteous [3]. God sent Jesus as a means to empower us to overcome sin, something the law could not account for is human fallibility.


6 .I have to ask, did you even read these two verses? They are both saying the same message, what do you think the contradiction is here? 

It states in one verse where no one will return and the other they will come forth. Contradiction
  1. Pro is talking about the wrong verses here. "This is just really lazy reading. Job is speaking of physical death and John is prophesying about the resurrection and return of Christ in which death will be abolished and Christ will judge the living and the dead."

7. Weird, again, there isn't even a contradiction in these two verses. Can you explain what you believe the two propositions that come in logical contradiction are? 

Do you think Jesus has sinned? And the other Prophets? Because Muslims do not. 
  • Jesus isn't of earth he is of heaven (part of the trinity). Also, the verses are from Romans/Ecclesiastes, books after Jesus had ascended to heaven.

9. Someone can have both a father and a father-in-law. Jacob's father was Jacob and his father-in-law was Heli.

Jacobs father was himself? Also if you look at the genealogy of Jesus from account of Matthew and Luke, Matthew's is subsequently longer. Human error? Bible cannot have human error. Bible has to be the preserved word of God, or it is not the word of God. 
  • Nitpicking. I was obviously saying that Josephs's father is Jacob you know, what we were literally talking about? 
  • As for the genealogy, Mattew shows Jesus's father's family and Luke shows his mother's family. That explains the differences. 
  • lastly, Islamic scholars admit the Quran has human errors. 

10. This is just a question, not a contradiction. To answer Jesus accumulated the sins of the world upon himself as a perfect sacrifice, so he was "cursed" in the sense of being temporarily removed from the presence of God the father but redeemed as the salvation of mankind, in essence, fulfilling the scripture

He was cursed full stop. Then the father raised him up as cursed, but why would the father raise up a cursed man?
  • Extend. pro does not engage with my rebuttal. 


Trinity
  • Right, because Jesus is God (ontological essence). This is actually just evidence of the trinity. Jesus acts in correspondence with God. 
Well it is not. The son can do nothing by himself. If he cannot do anything by himself, how is he God? Is God omnipotent? Is God independent? Yes and Yes. Is Jesus any of those? No. Because Jesus can only do things via the father and is dependant of His creation. 
  • The verse is saying he acts in accordance with the Father. He cannot do anything without him because they are one of the same ontological essence, God. 
  • Lastly, just because you don't understand the trinity, doesn't prove it false. We don't understand gravity completely but that doesn't mean it is false. 


z. Prophecy
  • Addressing the specific "prophecies" brought up by con.
"the verse in Genesis does not describe it at all. That is talking about the earth, not the universe. And the word heavens is referring to not in the universe." 
  • This is special pleading. The Bible passage shows God dividing the heavens and the earth just like the Islamic verse, even stating explicitly "then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.” And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters of the earth from the waters of the heavens. God called the space “sky.” (Genesis 1:1-25 NLT). 
  • Con's verse does not mention the word Universe either, ("21:30- Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and then We separated them...") in fact, both verses have the same message, that God separated the heavens and the earth
  • No source is provided for any translational meaning of "heaven." Ignore this as an unsubstantiated claim. 
As I said, a day is not specified. A day can mean 50,000 years and in one case in the Quran it states that. So a day in the Quran is defined as a 'period of time'. So thank you very much and that is another miracle.  
  • No citation provided that a day secretly means more than a day. Unsubstantiated claim.  
"40:22 refers to heavens, not universe. Same with Jeremiah. Same as 45:12. Try again." 
  • Your own verse was literally referring to the heavens as well, did pro not even read his own quote? "51:48-And We have built the heaven with might and We continue to expand it indeed." Either the Bible verses are making the same prediction as pro's Quranic verses or none of them are. Otherwise is special pleading. 

z.2 verdict
  • Con responds to me saying many Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled to saying many Quran prophecies have been fulfilled. 
  • This simply shows that both religions have fulfilled prophecies whereas pro's burden is to prove that Islam is more true than Christianity. 

Conclusion
  • Pro has to prove Islam is more true than Christianity
  1. I show irrefutable evidence from unbiased and credible historical sources that show the Christian Bible is historically accurate. Pro drops this and shows no evidence of the Quran's accuracy. On this point, we can ascertain that pro has already lost the debate as he has failed to show Islam is more true on an objective standard of analysis. 
  2. Pro loses conduct points for the plagiarism of an entire section of his case in round one. 
  3. Pro does not present a single contradiction in the Bible, evidently because I showed they are not contradictions, and more evidently because he continues to draw them out not even responding to how I disproved them with additional bible verses as context and sources simply serving as a waste of our time. Pro also shows no evidence that the Quran has no contradictions. For all we know, it does. 
  4. Pro doesn't understand the trinity, but that doesn't make it any less true or false. We don't understand gravity completely, however, that doesn't mean it isn't a true phenomenon. Additionally how exactly does this make Islam more true than Christianity? We shall never know as it seems. 
  5. The last point is the prophecies point which all pro is able to demonstrate is that some Quranic prophecies have been fulfilled and some Biblical ones have been fulfilled. That doesn't prove Islam is more true than Christianity. 
  • This makes our debate quite a simple decision for the voters. 

Sources
  1. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
  2. https://biblearchaeologyreport.com/
  3. https://defendinginerrancy.com/