Instigator / Pro
39
1890
rating
98
debates
93.37%
won
Topic
#3775

The majority of animal agriculture in the United States is slavery [for @Oromagi]

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
9
Better sources
14
10
Better legibility
7
6
Better conduct
6
7

After 7 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...

Novice_II
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
32
1922
rating
117
debates
97.44%
won
Description

Is Animal Farming Slavery?

Full resolution: The majority of animal agriculture in the United States is slavery.

The burden of proof is shared:
Pro: The majority of Animal agriculture in the US is slavery.
Con: The majority of Animal agriculture in the US is not slavery.

Slavery: the state of being owned by another person.
Animal agriculture is the rearing of animals for resources/food consumption.

All rules, terms, and specifications of the debate are agreed upon by acceptance.
Only Oromagi or Barney can accept this debate. Anyone else accepting will result in an automatic loss.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

The crucial contention in the debate is one which lies far from the topical stipulations. We can all agree that, in the intended debate regarding the moral aspects of animals, Novice_II clearly wins - however, this was not how the contest panned out. Oromagi opts to instead critique the fundamentals of the instigator's case, by exposing that the definition results in a tautological impossibility. It’s a risky strategy - let’s see if it pays off.

R1. PRO

Nothing which will be substantive in the overall decision is said here because Oromagi will undermine the entire argument. Thus, I need not make any comment.

R1. CON

Nothing much needs to be said here either - CON establishes the beginning of their Kritik - that the term “another” implies “in addition”, which further implies that according to the provided definitions, slavery is that which must include at least two agents. Thus, the rest of the instigators case is null, for they apply to animals as opposed to “another” human being.

R2. PRO

PRO responds compellingly here (personally, I had thought the debate was over already and that CON had won). They argue that “person” refers to “that who has personhood” and further compliments this by showing examples, where in the traditional definition of “person” is insufficient (ie, the abortion debate is one where “person” is in contention, there was once a time when the status of African’s or Jew’s were questioned etc).

R2. CON

CON replies by arguing that PRO’s definitions fall prey to the stipulative fallacy, wherein the ambiguous defining of a term is done so in order to bolster one’s own argument. They also claim that PRO does not use the most common of definitions. I don’t buy this - if it were the case that we can only use surface level definitions, debates regarding abortion and the rights of minorities could never be accelerated, as PRO observes in both rounds.

R3. PRO

Much of the same here, though PRO adds that CON’s reliance on “common sense” defines an argument from incredulity. I buy this - once upon a time, common sense determined the subjugation of African Americans, a point which PRO made in the prior round and also supplements when stipulating “ When discussing ethical issues regarding how we ought to treat entities, we discuss whether or not these entities are persons”

R3. CON

CON refutes the charges of an appeal to incredulity by arguing that the definitions are not “common place”, but this is exactly what PRO had charged as being an appeal to incredulity - the sentiment that “we ought use the common place definition” is exactly what PRO described as being incredulous. Furthermore, critiquing the notion that the "personhood" doctrine is uncommon isn't actually an engagement with the argument, merely a stipulation that it isn't very common (might I add as an example that it was once uncommon to hold that African Americans had rights). CON could have very easily argued that animals do not qualify for moral calculation, however, they did not.

-

Overview of arguments
CON's entire argument is that PRO does not conform to most dictionaries. In a clearly philosophical debate, it is clear you must do more than this (e.g. arguing abortion is wrong because it is illegal is akin to this level of argumentation). PRO correctly argues that, adopting the narrow view of CON's case, we would never have been able to further the rights of Africans and Jews, or have any dialectic in the abortion debate. CON could have won the debate if they had invested more into the moral aspect, as they did in round two, but it must be admitted that the majority of their case is semantics, and as the semantics was nullified by PRO's personhood doctrine, the argument is neutralised and the rest of PRO's arguments go untouched. Like Whiteflames said, it is clear that in a debate like this, crucial terms like "person" are up for grabs (especially in a distinctly morally grounded debate) , and I ultimately favoured the engagement of the personhood definition when compared to the regurgitation of dictionaries.

Conduct
I don’t appreciate that CON hinges their entire argument on semantical grounds - a kritik here and there as a supplementary riddle for the opponent to address is fine, but when you base your entire case on semantics, it’s quite annoying. Nonetheless, my personal dissatisfaction does not constitute enough of a justification to deduct a conduct point.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

More convincing arguments:

CON showed that it is impossible to argue the notion of personhood for animals because:
1. PRO never gave animals personhood in his opening argument.
2. the word "another" denotes, as CON put it, equal value between two things.

Some reasons CON interpreted PRO correctly:
"Premise one is definitional, with all terms being found in the description of our debate. Premise two, subsequently, is truistic. In animal agriculture, animals are owned as the property of their rearers." - Here PRO distinctly states animals and humans are different.
"Animal agriculture is the enslavement of sentient creatures, turning them into resources for human consumption." - Here PRO states that animals are enslaved by humans. This is important because his opening point was the "another person" was a human.

It was not until Round 2 where PRO actually stated he meant animals were persons under the philosophy of personhood. At minimum this means PRO was trying to hide his argument for this, or he automatically assumed without cause, since the description did not include a dictionary or a definition for personhood, that person meant the philosophical sense. So PRO is doubling back because CON destroyed his argument through simple tautology.

* * *
Reliable Sources:
CON cited Pro's .edu source for personhood, the LII, Merriam Webster, Encyclopedia Britannica, and Oxford's learner dictionary.
PRO cited three .edu websites, the EPA, a reputable philosophy magazine, and one Oxford link, in addition to Cambridge Dictionary.
Therefore PRO used more reliable sources.

* * *
I ran both arguments from all the rounds into Grammarly's grammar checker (which is one of the best on the market) and arrived at the following scores:
CON: 29 issues
PRO: 28 issues
Therefore, CON had worse spelling and grammar using an objective measurement for both parties, a program used by colleges and universities nationwide to help students write better.

* * *
Conduct:
Tied.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Following a mysterious vote deletion 1.5 hours before the results deadline, without an explanation, I am voting again without the conduct point. Allocated as that is what I assume was the issue.

RFD: https://www.debateart.com/debates/3775/comment-links/46505

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Edited to remove sources. Conduct and arguments are unchanged.

...

Pro gave himself a high BoP in needing to prove that animals are in fact people. Not merely that they ought to be granted rights and regarded as similar to people, but in plain English that they already are people.

Pro is successful in showing that the meat industry is bad. However, as con is apt to point out, without showing that people are being farmed for food, BoP is unable to be met.

While you can compare apples to oranges, that doesn't cause them to equal each other.

...

Pro is effective in using repeated pathos appeals along the lines of /imagine the same was done to your children!/, but con is fast to point out the disjunction of this when applied to the topic being a definitional fallacy. And further if farming is bad is non-sequitur to this topic unless people are being farmed.

Pro comes back declaring "Black people, Jewish people, etc." are the same as animals (I wouldn't phrase it like this, but con already caught the horrible implications of this comparison, and pro actively chose to double down on it). He further claims that con claims "it is ethical to torture, farm, and kill animals." Which is obviously a non-sequitur poisoning of the well (that con argues it is not the same, does not mean the debate changes topics to be about if it is right or wrong).

Human rights:
Going to use the first instance of a definition for that "HUMAN RIGHTS- humans are the only species capable of conceiving, demanding, upholding civil rights and as such, enjoy a superior and unique claim to those rights we perceive as self-evident." Pro basically accuses con of being in favor of eating the disabled for this (literally on the next paragraph he follows up with an accusation that con's logic is in favor of farming "elderly, the sick, and infants," so I think I'm at the point of not listing any more of these pathological insults) rather than showing the farm animals which rise to the level of thought as the average person (AKA, the average human being).

Personhood:
Con argues we should use English. Pro asserts that "Animals are persons because they are entities that have a moral right to their own self-determination" yet instead of showing this, he falls back to R1 Google searches for the definitions of key words, without actually showing the animals in question are capable of self-determination even to a comparable level to humans.

Abortion:
Pro for some strange reason keeps bringing up abortion. This is way too far off topic to be seriously considered.

Conduct: con.
I wouldn't assign this, except pro requested the point be given to him for con making arguments in R1. Which by itself is just weird, but when combined with obvious gaslighting at the start of R2 by pro (claiming that con accused him of conceding the debate; when no such words were written) undermines his case in a way that takes the reader out of the debate distracting from the topic at hand. It gets worse as noted above (such as claiming that con is in favor of murdering and eating defenseless human beings).

Sources: Tie, leaving toward con.
Initially voted this in con's favor, but in re-review both sides indeed put in their due diligence. That some of pro's own sources were proven to favor con, greatly hurt his case, but without deeper review on more of them it does not net the points.
Original reasoning: Pro brings up sources which proclaim personhood equals human being, cherry picks around that obvious problem, and then declares that con was really the one cherry picking for pointing out what pro's source says (the defense is good when applied to different webpages within any site, but not literally the same page on the same site). So for better leveraging of pro's own sources, con is able to claim this.

Legibility:
Both sides were fine on this front.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

The crucial contention in the debate is one which lies far from the topical stipulations. We can all agree that, in the intended debate regarding the moral aspects of animals, Novice_II clearly wins - however, this was not how the contest panned out. Oromagi opts to instead critique the fundamentals of the instigator's case, by exposing that the definition results in a tautological impossibility. It’s a risky strategy - let’s see if it pays off.

R1. PRO

Nothing which will be substantive in the overall decision is said here because Oromagi will undermine the entire argument. Thus, I need not make any comment.

R1. CON

Nothing much needs to be said here either - CON establishes the beginning of their Kritik - that the term “another” implies “in addition”, which further implies that according to the provided definitions, slavery is that which must include at least two agents. Thus, the rest of the instigators case is null, for they apply to animals as opposed to “another” human being.

R2. PRO

PRO responds compellingly here (personally, I had thought the debate was over already and that CON had won). They argue that “person” refers to “that who has personhood” and further compliments this by showing examples, where in the traditional definition of “person” is insufficient (ie, the abortion debate is one where “person” is in contention, there was once a time when the status of African’s or Jew’s were questioned etc).

R2. CON

CON replies by arguing that PRO’s definitions fall prey to the stipulative fallacy, wherein the ambiguous defining of a term is done so in order to bolster one’s own argument. They also claim that PRO does not use the most common of definitions. I don’t buy this - if it were the case that we can only use surface level definitions, debates regarding abortion and the rights of minorities could never be accelerated, as PRO observes in both rounds.

R3. PRO

Much of the same here, though PRO adds that CON’s reliance on “common sense” defines an argument from incredulity. I buy this - once upon a time, common sense determined the subjugation of African Americans, a point which PRO made in the prior round and also supplements when stipulating “ When discussing ethical issues regarding how we ought to treat entities, we discuss whether or not these entities are persons”

R3. CON

CON refutes the charges of an appeal to incredulity by arguing that the definitions are not “common place”, but this is exactly what PRO had charged as being an appeal to incredulity - the sentiment that “we ought use the common place definition” is exactly what PRO described as being incredulous. Furthermore, critiquing the notion that the "personhood" doctrine is uncommon isn't actually an engagement with the argument, merely a stipulation that it isn't very common (might I add as an example that it was once uncommon to hold that African Americans had rights). CON could have very easily argued that animals do not qualify for moral calculation, however, they did not.

-

Overview of arguments
CON's entire argument is that PRO does not conform to most dictionaries. In a clearly philosophical debate, it is clear you must do more than this (e.g. arguing abortion is wrong because it is illegal is akin to this level of argumentation). PRO correctly argues that, adopting the narrow view of CON's case, we would never have been able to further the rights of Africans and Jews, or have any dialectic in the abortion debate. CON could have won the debate if they had invested more into the moral aspect, as they did in round two, but it must be admitted that the majority of their case is semantics, and as the semantics was nullified by PRO's personhood doctrine, the argument is neutralised and the rest of PRO's arguments go untouched. Like Whiteflames said, it is clear that in a debate like this, crucial terms like "person" are up for grabs (especially in a distinctly morally grounded debate) , and I ultimately favoured the engagement of the personhood definition when compared to the regurgitation of dictionaries.

Conduct
I don’t appreciate that CON hinges their entire argument on semantical grounds - a kritik here and there as a supplementary riddle for the opponent to address is fine, but when you base your entire case on semantics, it’s quite annoying. Nonetheless, my personal dissatisfaction does not constitute enough of a justification to deduct a conduct point.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

"The majority of animal agriculture in the United States is slavery"

That's the topic, and given how much back-and-forth there is in this debate, I think it's surreal that my decision comes down to a single, seemingly unimportant word in that resolution: is. Animal agriculture IS slavery. That's a fact resolution. It's not a should resolution. There is room in this kind of resolution for discussion of the terms, but those discussions surround the facts of what slavery is and how it is defined, not how we ought to define it. So when I look at Pro's case, I'm not seeing engagement with how slavery is defined (if anything, that's largely agreed up front), but rather with how persons are defined. Even in that sense, Pro's case focuses on how we should define persons, critiquing the way that we use to determine whether an entity is a or is not a person. I've got problems with that argument that I won't get into here because they aren't pertinent to the debate (Con did start down some of these lines, but I didn't think he went far enough in his analysis), but the long and short of it is that I end up agreeing with a lot of it... but it doesn't seem relevant to the debate. I could wholly agree that farm animals at least SHOULD BE considered persons and end up still voting Con because that doesn't mean that they are.

And that's the fundamental sticking point for me. I can understand how Pro's argument works and I can see him using rather careful language to say that his argument means that farm animals ARE persons and therefore the term slavery DOES apply to them, but just saying it that way doesn't make it so. I can accept that standing definitions for persons are arbitrary and deeply flawed, but that doesn't change what they are. Hell, I can even grant all the points about how the definitions for persons have changed over time, since those points only demonstrate that the term has been used to exclude humans that most or all of us would now consider to be persons. All that tells me is that the meaning of persons should change, not that it already is what Pro wants it to be. And Con does a good job of pointing that out, arguing that common usage supports his position on the terminology, and that there are many definitions of what makes a person that support his case whereas Pro's only definitions that support his require expansions on and selective readings of existing definitions.

At the end of the day, while Pro spends most of his time pointing out the problems with our delineations between persons and non-persons, and I largely agree with him that he has demonstrated those differences to be problematic, they are insufficient for netting him this debate. This is the topic Pro chose and, yeah, it doesn't give him a lot of wiggle room to argue this way. I can't just agree that the definition should be what he says it is. I need to see good reason why the definition of persons already includes animals. Bringing up issues like the abortion debate and whether the unborn have personhood might have been a start down that road, but all it does is show where there is disagreement over existing definitions of personhood, i.e. what wiggle room exists within the definition. It doesn't tell us that animals are within that span of wiggle room. Without doing that, Pro fails to meet his burden for the debate, so I end up voting Con.

I will say that I don't end up buying the two Kritiks from Con. I didn't really see this as a tautological trap, especially given that terms like person were up for debate. As for sensationalizing, I get the point being made, though I think it would have to be clearer that Pro is somehow degrading the human suffering the results from enslavement. I didn't see him doing that, though he was certainly applying it to a much larger subset of life on this planet.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

RFD in comments.