Instigator / Pro
8
1500
rating
3
debates
50.0%
won
Topic
#3943
Slavery is still legal here in the US. African Americans and the 13th Amendment proves it.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2
After 2 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...
Raul
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 2
- Time for argument
- Twelve hours
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
14
1517
rating
4
debates
75.0%
won
Description
During the civil war they are approximately 1.5 million casualties reported. The emancipation proclamation was supposed to be the intention of abolishing slavery. The 13th Amendment was supposed to make it unconstitutional to have slaves or indentured slavery. However there is a exception in the 13th Amendment that null and voids the entire civil war and reconstruction of the South. I intend to prove that not only does the 13th Amendment negate abolishing slavery, but also kept slavery alive and well in this country. Which also means that reparations are still owed to the African-American community for not just leading up to the civil war, but for 404 years of slavery and the clock is still ticking.
Round 1
Pro
#1
in August of 1619, the first slaves arrived in the colonies from Africa. The emancipation proclamation occured 3 years into the civil war when President Lincoln gave his iconic and historic speech. During the civil war they were approximately 1.5 million casualties reported. Sacrifice through bloodshed on a n unprecedented scale. The 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
The pro position will prove that slavery is still legal and is widely used in this country primarily becsuse of this this word highlighted by bold text. "Except"
The word in the context in which it is used is very important to understand what exactly this word means.
Dictionary defines the word except as: not including; other than.
Synonyms used: excluding, not including, excepting, omitting, leaving out, not counting, but, besides, barring.
The context and the usage, as well as the purpose is straightforward and should not be subject to interpretation. However, when it comes to determining if a prisoner is a slave, or being held to involuntary servitude is significant. In 1871 the Virginia Supreme Court ruled that prisoners were a "slave of the state"
Another term used for involuntary servitude is also known as human trafficking. I believe it is common knowledge in this country that human trafficking is illegal. It may not be widely known that there is a law against forced Labor as well, that does not include an exception.
- U.S code 1589 Forced Labor.
(a) Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person by any one of, or by any combination of, the following means—
(1) by means of force.
means of force, threats of force, physical restraint, or threats of physical restraint to that person or another person;
(2) by means of serious harm or threats of serious harm to that person or another person;
(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or legal process; or
(4) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if that person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint,
shall be punished as provided under subsection (d).
(b) Whoever knowingly benefits, financially or by receiving anything of value, from participation in a venture which has engaged in the providing or obtaining of labor or services by any of the means described in subsection (a), knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that the venture has engaged in the providing or obtaining of labor or services by any of such means, shall be punished as provided in subsection (d).
(c) In this section:
(1) The term “abuse or threatened abuse of law or legal process” means the use or threatened use of a law or legal process, whether administrative, civil, or criminal, in any manner or for any purpose for which the law was not designed, in order to exert pressure on another person to cause that person to take some action or refrain from taking some action.
(2) The term “serious harm” means any harm, whether physical or nonphysical, including psychological, financial, or reputational harm, that is sufficiently serious, under all the surrounding circumstances, to compel a reasonable person of the same background and in the same circumstances to perform or to continue performing labor or services in order to avoid incurring that harm.
(d) Whoever violates this section shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from a violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnaping, an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.
Pardon the verbosity. I pasted the entire article for the purpose of transparency. As you can see, this law clearly forbids forced Labor without an exception.
The 13th Amendment allows an exception for something that is already considered a crime. The Virginia Supreme Court verified and defined a prisoner as a slave, for involuntary servitude, also known as forced labor.
In conclusion I have established the contradiction in the exception included in the 13th Amendment, and I am still to establish why the US government would continue using forced servitude and how they still owe reparations for the current prisoners still in prisons today, as well as all African-Americans since 16 17.
Con
#2
Slavery is a system of forced labor in which individuals are treated as property and are forced to work against their will. Slavery has existed throughout history in many different cultures and regions, and it continues to exist in some parts of the world today.
Slavery is believed to have originated in ancient civilizations, where it was often a normal part of society. In ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, for example, slaves were used for a variety of purposes, including agricultural labor, domestic work, and military service. In ancient Greece and Rome, slaves were also an important part of society, and they were used for a wide range of tasks, including agricultural labor, mining, and manufacturing. (SLAVERY IN ANCIENT EGYPT)
During the Middle Ages, slavery continued to exist in Europe, and it also spread to the Americas with the arrival of European colonizers. In the Americas, slaves were used primarily for agricultural labor, and they were an essential part of the economy in many parts of the Americas.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, slavery was abolished in many parts of the world, including in the United States with the passage of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution in 1865. However, slavery continues to exist in some parts of the world today, and it is a major human rights issue. The international community has worked to combat slavery and to protect the rights of workers around the world, but the problem persists in many parts of the world. (Who We Are - ATEST)
In 1871 the Virginia Supreme Court ruled that prisoners were a "slave of the state"
Prisoners are not considered slaves of the state, at least not anymore. Slavery is a system of involuntary servitude (it is important to know the difference between slavery and involuntary servitude), in which one person is owned and controlled by another person. In the United States, slavery was abolished with the passage of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution in 1865. While prisoners may not be considered slaves, they are subject to the authority of the state and are required to follow the rules and regulations of the prison system. They do not have the same freedoms as non-incarcerated individuals and are not able to live and work as they please.
Another term used for involuntary servitude is also known as human trafficking
Yes, human trafficking is a form of modern-day slavery. In fact, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) defines human trafficking as "the acquisition of people by improper means such as force, fraud or deception, with the aim of exploiting them." (Human-Trafficking) This definition encompasses many of the same elements as traditional slavery, such as the use of force or coercion, the exploitation of victims for labor or services, and the lack of freedom and autonomy for those who are trafficked. Like slavery, human trafficking is illegal in most countries and is considered a serious crime.
You have yet to explain the link between human trafficking and slavery.
As you can see, this law clearly forbids forced Labor without an exception.
Your second point's basis is flawed. You are mistaking human trafficking and slavery to be the same; human trafficking and slavery are similar in that they both involve the exploitation of individuals for labor or services, and they both involve the use of force, coercion, or deception to control victims. However, there are some key differences between the two.
One key difference is that slavery is typically associated with the ownership of individuals, whereas human trafficking does not necessarily involve the ownership of victims. In slavery, individuals are considered the property of their owners and can be bought and sold as such. In human trafficking, victims are often recruited, transported, and exploited for labor or services, but they are not necessarily considered the property of their traffickers.
Another difference is that slavery is a long-standing practice with a long history, whereas human trafficking is a more recent phenomenon that has become more prevalent in recent decades. Slavery has existed in many different forms throughout history, and it continues to exist in some parts of the world today. Human trafficking, on the other hand, is a crime that has grown in scope and complexity in recent years, as global economic and social conditions have changed.
Despite these differences, both slavery and human trafficking are illegal and are considered serious crimes. Both practices violate the fundamental human rights of victims and are condemned by the international community.
The 13th Amendment allows an exception for something that is already considered a crime
This exception was included in the amendment because at the time it was ratified, many people who were convicted of crimes were required to perform labor as part of their punishment. This included both enslaved individuals who had been convicted of crimes, as well as free individuals who were sentenced to perform labor as part of their punishment.
By including this exception, the 13th Amendment sought to prohibit slavery and involuntary servitude, while also recognizing the longstanding practice of requiring individuals who had been convicted of crimes to perform labor as part of their punishment. This allowed for the continuation of this practice, while also ensuring that it was limited to individuals who had been convicted of crimes and were serving a sentence in prison.
Overall, the 13th Amendment's exception for punishment for a crime was included in the amendment in order to recognize the existing practice of requiring individuals who had been convicted of crimes to perform labor as part of their punishment, while also prohibiting slavery and involuntary servitude in other contexts.
Amendment 13th's exception is a necessary part of the criminal justice system and that it provides prisoners with valuable work experience and skills that can help them to re-enter society after their release. They argue that requiring prisoners to perform labor helps to maintain order and discipline within the prison system, and that it can provide a sense of responsibility and purpose for inmates.
Additionally, many prisons operate industries and businesses that provide goods and services to the state or to the private sector. These industries can generate revenue for the prison system, which can be used to fund rehabilitation programs, education, and other services for prisoners. By requiring prisoners to work, supporters argue that these industries can be maintained and can provide valuable vocational training and job skills for inmates.
Overall, it is a necessary and beneficial part of the criminal justice system, and that it helps to promote public safety, order, and rehabilitation within the prison system.
I am still to establish why the US government would continue using forced servitude and how they still owe reparations for the current prisoners still in prisons today,
Such reason has been given above.
In conclusion:
The Instigator has no grounds to form his theory. Flawed and misleading evidence, the lack of supporting evidence, logical fallacies, and contradictions with his established facts.
Instigator's main ideas:
- Prisoners are "slaves of the state" - Refuted argument
- Forced Labor is slavery. - Refuted argument
Sources Used:
Round 2
Pro
#3
Instigator's main ideas:
- Prisoners are "slaves of the state" - Refuted argument
- Forced Labor is slavery. - Refuted argument
I would first like to commend my opponent for his well established and well thought out rebuttal. However, these bullet point shown above are not my main ideas.
My main ideas involve disparity, injustice, and discrimination that has been raging on the peripheral of those who not the oppressed.
Some people are under the impression that oppression of blacks just doesn't exist.
My main ideas was that slavery still exists, it doesn't exist in the form of import cargo, trade, buy, and sell auctions and ultimate personal ownership. It has changed over time.
Initially, states passed discriminatory laws to arrest and imprison large numbers of Black people, then leased prisoners to private individuals and corporations in a system of convict leasing that resulted in dangerous conditions, abuse, and death. While states profited, prisoners earned no pay and faced inhumane, hazardous, and often deadly work conditions. Thousands of Black people were forced into a brutal system that historians have called “worse than death."
"eji.org"
Your second point's basis is flawed. You are mistaking human trafficking and slavery to be the same;
I concede to this argument, for the reasons that have been already argued till all debate clubs were blue in the face, ( sorry I can't site any source of corroborating evidence supporting any blue faces.)
However. I would rather make the point that realizing that something more profitable for some and over the years have been historically speaking, horrific treatment of people. I.E. Attica in New York, Angola of Louisiana, etc...
A report published by the American Civil Liberties Union in June 2022 found about 800,000 prisoners out of the 1.2 million in state and federal prisons are forced to work, generating a conservative estimate of $11bn annually in goods and services while average wages range from 13 cents to 52 cents per hour.
That revenue mentioned above doesn't even account for the money that's generated through federal budgets etc... The concerns people should have with the prison system are far too great for mention here. However, anyone interested in making their head explode visit
I digress. The real reason to instigate this debate
Is that in this country you are 5 times more likely to be imprisoned if you are black then if you were white. 40% of the U.S prison system are black. While blacks only represent 12. 2% of the total population of the U.S.
Those numbers are not just.
Nor can they be excused, ignored, or dismissed.
Zoning laws leading up to about one or two generations ago openly discriminated against all non whites. Even after the law changed the verbage changed from "Negro" and "white" to "poor" and "not poor". Anyone who lives anywhere in this country can see the segregation even to this day. Intentionally cutting budgets to those neighborhoods. Intentionally driving the value of real estate in to the ground so that no business that hire will build. Limiting employment, education funding, limiting infrastructure, funding for parks and beautification almost to non existence. Perpetuating more and more violent crime, homelessness , hunger, drug addiction and mental illness in those areas.
That's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to targeting minorities for cheap labor.
I couldn't possibly itemize all the injustices.
However, let me leave the readers with two parting thoughts.
1. A woman with the name Jane Elliot in 1968 following the Assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. conducted an experiment some might remember from phy 101 called "the blue eyes, brown eyes experiment." If you are not familiar I would encourage a quick search on YouTube. However, she lead a demonstration that I found particularly profound. This demonstration wasn't about feeling like the roles were reversed. This was about choosing to switch.
She stood in front of a group of white college students in an auditorium and asked "If you, as a white person, would be happy to receive the same treatment as black citizens do in this society... Stand."
Spoiler Alert! No one stood.
Which means, that they are completely aware that there is a problem, and they know they wouldn't want it for themselves, yet are willing to except it for others.
2. The quote was part of a 1994 interview with John Ehrlichman, who served 18 months in prison for his central role in the Watergate scandal. He was a top white Aide. Regarding Nixon's war on drugs.
“You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
In closing, The history of slavery leaves little to establish a connection from Ancient Egypt, and stigma that was created by the African Slave trade to the Americas. As a matter of fact, it wasn't until Systema naturae in 1735, in which the Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus proposed a classification of humankind into four distinct races. European, American, African, Asian. In 1890, the first census you could choose if you were white or black. Changing the way the world looks at the color of skin certainly deserves it's unique designation in history.
Defining what indentured slavery, slavery, involuntary servitude, or a pimp stable, is missing the point of the Americas other unique designation. The highest number of incarcerated prisoners per capita than any other country in the world.. by far. The minority of 12% making up almost half of that prison population is the point that regardless of what name we associate with injustice, the people experiencing it first hand never deserved it. Therefore, reparations for false imprisonment, defamation of character, lynchings, unjust killings, led in the water, etc.... are still owed to them. What are they guilty of, for the most part (exceptions included) was to commit crimes of survival. When the conditions preset for them were designed for them to fail. Yet they persisted, and assimilated. I don't believe anything I have said regarding the injustices committed against minorities in this country can not be Refuted.
Thank you
Con
#4
However, these bullet point shown above are not my main ideas.
These bullet points support your main idea.
Some people are under the impression that oppression of blacks just doesn't exist.
Racial discrimination is not slavery. While racial discrimination and slavery are related, they are not the same thing. Racial discrimination refers to the unequal treatment of individuals based on their race, which can take many forms, including but not limited to slavery. Slavery, on the other hand, is a specific form of exploitation in which individuals are treated as property and are forced to work for others without pay.
Initially, states passed discriminatory laws to arrest and imprison large numbers of Black people, then leased prisoners to private individuals and corporations in a system of convict leasing that resulted in dangerous conditions, abuse, and death. While states profited, prisoners earned no pay and faced inhumane, hazardous, and often deadly work conditions. Thousands of Black people were forced into a brutal system that historians have called “worse than death."
“Initially”, “then”. Upon confirming your sources, I’ve noticed that this quote talks about the 1800s. One of the main reasons is that society and culture have changed significantly over the past two centuries, and the values and beliefs of people in the 1800s may no longer be relevant or applicable in today's world. Additionally, the legal and political landscape has evolved over time, and many of the laws and policies that were in place in the 1800s have been replaced or revised. Finally, scientific and technological advancements have also played a role in rendering some of the ideas and beliefs of the 1800s obsolete.
generating a conservative estimate of $11bn annually in goods and services while average wages range from 13 cents to 52 cents per hour.
Which is used to rehabilitate prisoners. As I’ve previously stated; many prisons operate industries and businesses that provide goods and services to the state or to the private sector. These industries can generate revenue for the prison system, which can be used to fund rehabilitation programs, education, and other services for prisoners. By requiring prisoners to work, supporters argue that these industries can be maintained and can provide valuable vocational training and job skills for inmates.
40% of the U.S prison system are black. While blacks only represent 12. 2% of the total population of the U.S.
I do not understand what you are trying to convey. There are many factors that contribute to the higher incarceration rates among Black people compared to other racial groups. Some of these factors include systemic racism and discrimination in the criminal justice system, higher rates of poverty and unemployment among Black communities, and a lack of access to quality education and opportunities. Additionally, research has shown that Black people are more likely to be arrested and convicted for certain crimes, even when controlling for other factors such as the type and seriousness of the offense. Ultimately, the higher incarceration rates among Black people are a result of a complex interplay of social, economic, and political factors.
Intentionally cutting budgets to those neighborhoods. Intentionally driving the value of real estate in to the ground so that no business that hire will build. Limiting employment, education funding, limiting infrastructure, funding for parks and beautification almost to non existence.
Speculation. Zoning laws are regulations that control the use of land in a particular area. These laws are typically enacted by local governments to ensure that land is used in a way that is compatible with the surrounding community. Zoning laws can include regulations on the types of buildings that can be constructed in a given area, as well as the density and height of those buildings.
It is not accurate to say that zoning laws are intentionally designed to cut budgets in Black neighborhoods. While there is evidence that some zoning laws have had a disproportionately negative impact on Black communities, it is not necessarily the case that these laws were intended to do so. In many cases, the effects of zoning laws on Black communities are a result of broader social and economic factors, rather than intentional discrimination
In either case, it would be racial discrimination, not slavery.
it wasn't until Systema naturae in 1735, in which the Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus proposed a classification of humankind into four distinct races.
Carl Linnaeus was a Swedish naturalist who developed a system for classifying organisms based on their physical characteristics. In his system, he divided human beings into four races: Europeans, Americans, Asians, and Africans. These categories were based on physical characteristics such as skin color and facial features, and they were intended to reflect the natural differences among different populations of people. Linnaeus's classification system is no longer considered scientifically valid, as it is based on outdated and flawed ideas about race and human variation. Today, most scientists agree that race is a social construct, rather than a biological fact.
Therefore, reparations for false imprisonment, defamation of character, lynchings, unjust killings, led in the water, etc.... are still owed to them.
There are various reasons why reparations would be impractical, unfair, or impossible to implement.
- Reparations would be impractical or impossible to implement, given the difficulty of identifying and compensating all the descendants of enslaved people.
- Reparations would be unfair, as many people who are alive today had no involvement in slavery or racism and should not be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors.
- Reparations would be divisive, as they would create resentment and conflict among different racial and ethnic groups.
- Reparations would not address the underlying problems of racism and inequality, and would therefore be ineffective in achieving justice for Black people.
- Reparations would be a waste of money, as the funds could be better spent on other initiatives that would benefit all members of society.
Summary:
Instigator’s supporting ideas:
- Prisoners are "slaves of the state" - Refuted argument
- Forced Labor is slavery. - Refuted argument
- Discrimination affects lives of African-American - Refuted Argument
- Zoning laws are intentionally made to put African-Americans at a disadvantage - Refuted Argument
- Reparations are still owed to African-Americans - Refuted Argument
Conclusion: Pro has failed to prove that slavery still exists in this modern day and age, though I applaud him for the effort.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
While pro was able to show a history of prison systems being abused to enslave African Americans, con was able to defend that those problems do not raise to the level of actual slavery today; and his reasoning on the wording of the amendment to not rule out involuntary servitude in prisoners seemed reasonable.
Much of the weakness to pros case is scope creep. I cannot grade on discrimination if discrimination is not outright slavery. A more precise resolution would have also helped, such as "Prisons reduce African American convicts to slaves."
The wages line of argument could be expanded into an argument that their treatment is at least akin to slavery, but con was able to defend that it was for their benefit (his arguments of the rest of society benefiting so much could have easily been turned around; probably the biggest weakness to his case).
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
pro's argument is confusing, first he tries to say the exception found within the 13th amendment is slavery, then, he says the discrimination is also slavery, moving the goal posts. Con refutes the former by saying it is still overall prohibiting slavery and the criminals are not "property", merely following new regulations established in the prison. Con refutes the latter by saying the discrimination does not match the definitions of slavery laid out by the dictionary. Thus, Con wins the debate.
This much talking about a debate is fine. The only problem is when people intentionally harass voters.
The preciseness of the resolution made it hard to uphold. You needed both to support that slavery is still legal (you indeed showed a loophole), and that specifically African Americans somehow prove that. To this, pro was able to cast sufficient doubt that they are slaves today.
A debate just on if African Americans were still used as slaves by the prison system in the 20th century, you would have plenty of historical cases to cite (particularly proven wrongful imprisonments).
https://info.debateart.com/style-guide#writing-a-strong-resolution
...
As for the treatment of African Americans by our justice system: It is utterly deplorable.
Sadly, many Americans fall into the fallacious thinking that because the justice system abuses them, they must deserve it. A video of a cop literally murdering someone isn't enough to sway that type of person.
https://www.debateart.com/debates/3415-derek-chauvin-was-not-a-racist
This is my second debate, so I don't know what the etiquette is on commenting after arguments become closed. I accept the results based on the arguments given, and want my post comment to be inadmissible, and not considered evidence in this debate. However, after the debate was over, I came across a term I was unaware of. "Punitive Labour" this term describes labour as a punishment for a crime more accurately than "slavery" does. Both pro and con made the arguments that the prison system today is not like slavery that implies ownership over another person. My point, keeping the the 13th Amendment as is, is technically keeping slavery legal. The intention of the word "except", not only has the direct intention of making slavery legal, but implies that the institution now owns you if you commit a crime, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. That is the unintended consequence of the exception clause in the 13th amendment. There are 3 words both the pro and con agree on definition.
Slavery: ownership.
Except: Accepting when conditions met.
Punitive Labour: Work as a punishment for a crime.
If we can agree on these terms being defined accurately. Then we must agree with the premise that slavery is still legal is established and proven.
My intention is not to win a debate or save face. Instead I feel strongly about the issue. I believe that in my heart the exception clause is why the massive disparity of blacks being incarcerated 5 times the rate of white in the U.S even though they represent a sliver of the population. 12.2 %, which is the reason for intentional impoverishment, segregation, crack being distributed by the CIA, the incredible increase in heroine sales during Vietnam, the L.A Riots etc... The prison system is extremely profitable for a handful of people.
I just finished my first debate. I think I won because my opponent forfeited round 3 and 4. It's still up for votes if your interested. My opponent has a win % 94 in 77 debates.
The first debate I initiated on one of these sites, was on if prison is more voluntary than not. The jokes I used haven’t aged well.
To be fair, I can see how Pro can pull a kritik that may decimate the topic itself, just maybe not the mainstream view of the topic.
I was more thinking someone would pull one on you.
I think i should further familiarize myself with concept of Kritik. But I believe that what the term is referring to is that my argument somehow will lead down a rabbit holes of it's no conclusions or even the old blame it on Canada technique. However I'm quite certain that my arguments and conclusion could be proven in court. I'm actually counting on it.
Ah, the old prisoners are slaves argument. Expect a kritik.
https://info.debateart.com/kritik-guide