Instigator / Pro

1518

rating

debates

100.0%

won

Topic

#4024

Capitalism Advanaces Society

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

Tags

Economics

Parameters

Publication date: 12.30.2022 02:21PM
Last updated date: 01.06.2023 11:31PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: One day
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Sir.Lancelot

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

12.30.2022 07:22PM

Pro

Capitalism advances and helps move society forward. It makes society safer, healthier, wealthier, and thoroughly better.

Capitalism opens the door for innovation. Innovation makes healthcare more wholesome. It makes food and beverages safer. It makes the rich richer and makes the poor wealthier. The market, the invisible hand, and smarter business decisions, make prices for products cheaper, and more available. They will provide jobs and will build up the developing world. Capitalism is based in the belief that humanity is naturally somewhat selfish, and it does not try to paint that over. It is rooted in the bedrock of its founding and envisioning.

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages...

-Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations

The point of it is that because humanity is selfish, they will do whatever is in their power to make themselves richer and more powerful. Thus, they have to make good decisions to achieve that, but their contribution is led by an invisible hand to make an even larger one.

Capitalism has made lives of individuals everywhere in the world better. It has decentralized wealth from the government and its crony oligarchs. It has given and produced wealth for the people, through their own work. It has risen people out of poverty.

In 1820, over 90 percent of the world lived in extreme poverty. In 1990 around 30 percent of the world lived in extreme poverty. Today, less than 10 percent of the world's population lives in extreme poverty.

-Redd, Ivey. “Capitalism, the Greatest Economic System Ever: Yip Institute (Opinion Article).” RSS, Institute for Youth in Policy, 6 Aug. 2022, https://www.yipinstitute.com/article/capitalism-the-greatest-economic-system-ever.

Economic inequality is inevitable, and is evidently immensly improved by the invisible hand. The difference is between a single man or body (the government) controlling all the wealth of a nation, or every having their own share which is distributed through exchange.

Marx promised that classes would be leveled and universal equality would reign. In the USSR, it an inherently unfair system and exacerbated its problems. Joseph Stalin had wealth worth today upwards of seven trillion dollars to use to his liking.

Capitalism never promised a perfect society, nor preach its own perfection, yet it has, is, and will always be the most perfect economic system. Capitalism has always been at the forefront of making society better and the world safer.

The ideas of capitalism's father were raised in response to mercantilism and protectionism hindering free trade (remember, communism came after). Free and fair trade between nations has always been at the heart of capitalism. Tariffs and other forms of protectionism make a nation suffer. We have a global economy and the nations that contribute to it get even larger rewards.

Trade is central to ending global poverty. Countries that are open to international trade tend to grow faster, innovate, improve productivity and provide higher income and more opportunities to their people. Open trade also benefits lower-income households by offering consumers more affordable goods and services. -“Stronger Open Trade Policies Enable Economic Growth for All.” World Bank, https://www.worldbank.org/en/results/2018/04/03/stronger-open-trade-policies-enables-economic-growth-for-all#:~:text=Countries%20that%20are%20open%20to,more%20opportunities%20to%20their%20people.

Capitalism is the solution that has been ending poverty in all corners of the world and will continue to do so. It will squash political and economic inequality that have stood in the way of progress. It has and will keep the world more secure and connected. It has produced innovations like the Covid Vaccine which has saved millions of lives. It has proven that personal interest and self-love are truly guided by the invisible hand to advance change and enduring social progress, to make the world more peaceful, healthier, wealthier, better, and more equal.

Sir.Lancelot

12.30.2022 07:58PM

Con

“Advanaces” is not a word. It is possible my opponent meant ‘*advances.’

Terms:

Capitalism- An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

Advance- Make or cause to make progress.

Society- The community of people living in a particular country or region and having shared customs, laws, and organizations.

BOP:

Since Pro is making the claim that “Capitalism advances society,” he is therefore required to provide proof of this claim. Whereas I only have to retort it.

Rebuttals:

Capitalism is the solution that has been ending poverty in all corners of the world and will continue to do so. It will squash political and economic inequality that have stood in the way of progress. It has and will keep the world more secure and connected. It has produced innovations like the Covid Vaccine which has saved millions of lives. It has proven that personal interest and self-love are truly guided by the invisible hand to advance change and enduring social progress, to make the world more peaceful, healthier, wealthier, better, and more equal.

Capitalism is one of the biggest causes of unemployment and was the main contributor which brought us into The Great Depression.

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/capitalism-and-unemployment/

Capitalism never promised a perfect society, nor preach its own perfection, yet it has, is, and will always be the most perfect economic system. Capitalism has always been at the forefront of making society better and the world safer.

It has thrived under the idea that “hard work makes you successful,” and yet it stands that Capitalism has armed businessman with the means to take advantage of their employees for their hard labor and then leave them underpaid.

https://apnews.com/article/how-companies-rip-off-poor-employees-6c5364b4f9c69d9bc1b0093519935a5a

Capitalism opens the door for innovation. Innovation makes healthcare more wholesome. It makes food and beverages safer.

Companies like Nestle get away with operating without a permit in other countries in order to take all the clean water to supply their water plantation company, leaving poor villages to get sick by drinking contaminated water.

Nestle has also infected customers with E Coli. All of this is made possible under Capitalism.

Sources: https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2022/09/nestle-hopes-to-restart-factory-linked-to-e-coli-outbreak/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/29/us/nestle-water-california.html

https://apnews.com/article/how-companies-rip-off-poor-employees-6c5364b4f9c69d9bc1b0093519935a5a

Round 2

LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

12.30.2022 10:06PM

Pro

As a matter of fact, I did mean advances.

I never argued that capitalism was perfect. Progression and advancement of society is not a simple, perfect, and straightforward process. It is not a magic spell that cures all the world's problems. It is impossible for poverty, hunger, thirst, and disease to just disappear in an instant.

I am not naive to the problems and issues of capitalism.

Though, the logical application of the contender's specific evidence is fallacious and questionable at best. How does ecoli in cookie dough prove that capitalism does not progress society? I never said capitalism was perfect and ensures absolute progress, the thesis was that capitalism advances society.

No matter what there are problems with any solution, and issues arise through the cracks. Saying cookie dough or drying of a water source by a company is proof that capitalism does not advance society is dubious.

To prove the point, here is some proof. While the contender argues that Nestlé using a water source up, capitalism has produced unrivaled innovation. This innovation includes desalination which has made the desert green and quench people's thirst.

Another point is that there are more than one type of capitalism, and some forms of it have the capability of fixing the concerns given by the contender.

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/Series/Back-to-Basics/Capitalism

Our choices do not have to be one extreme or another, and frankly, they shouldn't.

Innovation is made possible by the afformentioned inherently selfishness of the human race. Capitalism makes this into solutions to fix problems. To cure diseases, to quench thirst, to feed the hungry. Through these advancements, all of these become cheaper.

https://idexinnovation.com/blog/the-importance-of-innovation/#:~:text=Scientific%20and%20technological%20progress%20brought,and%20transformation%20in%20our%20societies.

As said earlier, there are different forms of capitalism, and regulation by the government is still able to fit into the framework. The government can push forward the economy and market and the invisible hand will let it fly.

The same economy which you pointed out had people unemployed, employs them. The same economy which can be unequal can become equal, the Kuznets Curve.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/simon-kuznets.asp

As the world became more industrialized, it became more unequal, but there are two sides to every coin and the curve proves it. Industrialization and innovation opens the door for better healthcare, safer food and water, and overall, higher standards of living.

The best way to demonstrate how much capitalism has advanced society, is to look how a society can go backward.

In Venezuela, the former richest country in South America, is now the poorest since embracing socialism. The people are now eating rats, drinking dirty water, or not drinking at all, and living in filth. While their leaders eat up resources and lives a luxurious lifestyle.

In China, the communist government took away the choice of its people to choose their employment, during the failed Great Leap Forward Program, resulting in the deaths of tens of millions. China under Deng Xiaoping became a modern country generating wealth and started to advance, which is now going backward under the leadership of Xi Jingping.

Capitalism was a liberal idea to give power to the people, to take control of their lives. Once countries became modern, they became more equal politically and economically, making it possible for a nobody to become rich and powerful.

By virtue, a freer society is a progressive one. A capitalist society which decentralizes the power of a hungry government is a progressive one. Innovation has made the world better, and that cannot be denied. The extent to which capitalism has made the world society more advanced is up for debate, but the overlying fact is that it has.

Maybe I am crazy, but in my book a society is more advanced when it is freer and the government leaves the people alone. When people can choose their place of employment and how they spend their money. A society is more advanced when it makes it possible to drag people out of poverty. It is more advanced when it makes food cheaper. It is more advanced when it can make water drinkable. It is undeniably more advanced when it can feed, clothe, and provide quality services for less, and the government does not spoil the good brought about by individual autonomy and freedom, which will bring about the progression of the entire world, of which has been fought for. Liberty is the best policy, and it will always be.

Sir.Lancelot

12.30.2022 11:31PM

Con

Though, the logical application of the contender's specific evidence is fallacious and questionable at best. How does ecoli in cookie dough prove that capitalism does not progress society? I never said capitalism was perfect and ensures absolute progress, the thesis was that capitalism advances society.

Fallacious, how? I realize Pro may have not said Capitalism is perfect, but there is evidence to the contrary when suggesting Capitalism advances society.

Nestle has a terrible reputation because it uses the privileges of Capitalism to do evil.
E-Coli is just one of many examples of how a popular company can do harmful things under Capitalism.
Nestle also funded a chocolate plantation company that was trafficking children for labor.

Another example of how Capitalism was used to commit evil is The Slave Trade and Colonialism.

The Slave Trade | National Archives

No matter what there are problems with any solution, and issues arise through the cracks. Saying cookie dough or drying of a water source by a company is proof that capitalism does not advance society is dubious.

A lot of people die every year from vaccine-preventable diseases, malaria, lack of clean water, and starvation. Statistically, the number of body counts is too significantly high for me to share Pro's optimistic appraisal of Capitalism.

To prove the point, here is some proof. While the contender argues that Nestlé using a water source up, capitalism has produced unrivaled innovation. This innovation includes desalination which has made the desert green and quench people's thirst.

Desalination is not well-known for being environmentally-friendly.

"The State Water Resources Control Board estimates that open ocean intakes used by coastal power plants in California kill 70 billion fish larvae and other marine life on an annual basis. These same open ocean intakes are being proposed for use at desalination plants throughout California."

Innovation is made possible by the afformentioned inherently selfishness of the human race. Capitalism makes this into solutions to fix problems. To cure diseases, to quench thirst, to feed the hungry. Through these advancements, all of these become cheaper.

And it was through Capitalism by which people in power had the right to deny sick people the treatment they need. Some are simply unable to afford healthcare and we all know that in a Capitalistic society, you're only worth as much as you make.

The best way to demonstrate how much capitalism has advanced society, is to look how a society can go backward.

In Venezuela, the former richest country in South America, is now the poorest since embracing socialism. The people are now eating rats, drinking dirty water, or not drinking at all, and living in filth. While their leaders eat up resources and lives a luxurious lifestyle.

Listing problems of other forms of government doesn't mean Capitalism is good, it just means those other systems are bad.

Maybe I am crazy, but in my book a society is more advanced when it is freer and the government leaves the people alone. When people can choose their place of employment and how they spend their money. A society is more advanced when it makes it possible to drag people out of poverty. It is more advanced when it makes food cheaper. It is more advanced when it can make water drinkable. It is undeniably more advanced when it can feed, clothe, and provide quality services for less, and the government does not spoil the good brought about by individual autonomy and freedom, which will bring about the progression of the entire world, of which has been fought for. Liberty is the best policy, and it will always be.

Capitalism perpetuates factors that cause poverty. With privatized education, businessman can profit without the youth ever learning the skills to make one employable, thus being out of work and having to resort to crime just to be able to survive. In the Industrial Revolution, kids as young as age 12 were being forced to work in very dangerous conditions just to be able to support themselves and their family. All too often, injuries would lead to them losing their fingers, but they were unable to report their superiors because they risk being fired.

Beyond neoliberalism: Reflections on capitalism and education - Steven J Klees, 2020 (sagepub.com)

The heavy stress toll of the environment aged them prematurely and would cause irreversible health damage. Families in Europe used to have to go to labor camps if they did not make a sufficient amount. Kids suffering from illnesses could not afford enough to get the proper treatment they need. Overall, I'm more inclined to conclude that Capitalism does more harm than good.

Sources: Desalination: The Solution to Our Problems? (healthebay.org)

21st-century capitalism: structural challenges for universal health care | Globalization and Health | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)

Industrial Revolution | Definition, History, Dates, Summary, & Facts | Britannica

The Slave Trade | National Archives

Beyond neoliberalism: Reflections on capitalism and education - Steven J Klees, 2020 (sagepub.com)

Public-Choice

12.31.2022 02:42PM

#12

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@Sir.Lancelot

I'll try to get to this one this weekend, but if not I'll get to it during the week.

LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

12.31.2022 02:03PM

#11

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@Sir.Lancelot

Interesting proposition. I'm a thorough capitalist, but it might be fun.

On a side note, I'd like to say that Adam Smith's version of capitalism is better than the versions that came later, and all your concerns are addressed.

He was supportive of progressive taxation.

He was for a free market and free trade, with limited regulation.

He was against slavery on ethical grounds, because that meant peoplee could not choose their employment or control their lives.

He was against colonialism, because he viewed it as unjustified.

He thought governments need to work on public work and infrastructure, and he was for public education, and maybe even a limited welfare state.

glzz

12.31.2022 11:56AM

#10

hello there, let me introduce myself. I am a spanish guy studying in UCM (Universidad Complutense de Madrid) first year of philosophy. I am doing a proyect of philosophical anthropology related with the lack of debate between people. Because of that I wanted to interview people who wanted to debate, i found somehow this website and i think that u guys have a really respectfull and good dialogue in general. The deadline for the proyect is the 9th of january, so if u are interested pls write me as early as u can, ty all :D

Best.Korea

12.31.2022 10:18AM

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@LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

I cannot vote. And I would never vote for a capitalist.

Sir.Lancelot

12.31.2022 02:12AM

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@LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

Want to do a debate where I defend Capitalism and you defend Socialism?

LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

12.31.2022 02:11AM

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@Best.Korea

Would you like to vote? Seems like you have some good opinions.

LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

12.31.2022 02:10AM

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@Sir.Lancelot

Thanks, great talking to you. Just on a side note, I think capitalism is the best, because all alternatives I feel are worse. There are serious issues with capitalism, and my utopia of no regulation is unreasonable, yet I feel a good thing to strive for. Great conversation.

AustinL0926

12.30.2022 11:41PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

I'll vote on this later when I get time

Sir.Lancelot

12.30.2022 11:38PM

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@Barney

@Intelligence_06

@Public-Choice

@AustinL0926

Would you guys like to vote?

Sir.Lancelot

12.30.2022 11:36PM

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@LibertyIsTheBestPolicy

Welcome to the site! And good conversation!

Best.Korea

12.30.2022 03:00PM

Con wins this because the word "Advanaces" doesnt exist.

Best.Korea

12.30.2022 02:30PM

Thats why societies with more Capitalism are more advanced. People have a lot of food, and video games, and a pretty low chance of being raped or hit by a car. Everyone in Capitalism is rich. There are stores everywhere. Food is very healthy. You will not get fat. And pollution is almost non-existent. The cost of rent is low and you can always dig a hole in a local forest and live there.

oromagi

01.06.2023 12:54AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

PRO fails to provide definitions, set burden of proof, or the wincons for PRO and CON. Such provision is the responsibility of the instigator and oversight of those responsibilities leaves a big opportunity open for the the contender to exploit.

PRO presents several points in favor of capitalism as an economic system. PRO suggests that capitalism promotes innovation, which can improve healthcare and make products cheaper and more available. PRO also argues that capitalism has helped to reduce poverty around the world and has decentralized wealth from governments and oligarchs. PRO cites Adam Smith's concept of the invisible hand to suggest that individual self-interest leads to overall societal benefit. PRO contends that capitalism promotes free trade, which can drive economic growth and reduce global poverty.

CON wisely defines terms, burdens, and wincon but I think CON misses a big opportunity to qualify PRO's burden. That is, showing that Capitalism advances society to some degree in some situations is a very low burden to meet and conventional wisdom (at least in the West) gives PRO a powerful advantage. PRO's failure to define gave CON an oppotunity to set PRO's burden much higher- that in the aggregate, the advances of Global Society outpace the impediments imposed on that society by Free Trade- a much, much higher pole to vault.

CON argues that capitalism has been associated with unemployment and has contributed to economic downturns like the Great Depression. It is also true that some companies and individuals have taken advantage of their employees or exploited resources for their own profit, and that this can have negative consequences for workers and the environment. These are important issues that should be considered when evaluating the impact of capitalism but CON arguement feels like mere problem-finding rather than actually comparing Capitalist economies to non-Capitalist ecomies and demonstrating superior employment numbers, less exploitation, etc in those economies.

In R2, PRO does a good job of setting aside CON's complaints and making a case for the big picture." I never said capitalism was perfect and ensures absolute progress, the thesis was that capitalism advances society." I particularly like PRO's offering of specific examples Capitalist Venezuala rejected capitalism and went into retrograde: Communist China embraced capitalism and rapidly advanced. I really, really wish PRO had backed these examples with solid objective sourcing that directly linked capitalism to progress.

CON stuck with specific drawbacks in R2 and never really went to the heart of the wincon: societal advancement. Sure, desalination might pollute but does such innovation and big water projects lead to societal advancement overall? PRO say yes, CON never really makes a case against. CON's example of slave trade furthers his exploitation argument but I think weakens his unemployment argument: no slaves are ever unemployed. Is slavery only a feature of Capitalist economies? No, of course it isn't. I think CON's last point on environmental stress had great potential: sure the Industrial Revolution made us all less poor but if Earth becomes uninhabitable as a result, the society was let down.

Both sides had points but PRO got away with a very low bar to achieve: Capitalism advances society. PRO did show that the terrible scourge of human poverty has been improved and that increased innovation has a track record for solving problems that come up, even problems created by capitalism.

Arguments to PRO. Good, if sometimes subjective sourcing on both sides. Excellent grammer and conduct all around. Well done.