On balance, The U.S. Government should raise taxes to fund the Source Code Project
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After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
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- Two weeks
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- Open
Source Code is an experimental machine that reconstructs the past using the dead passengers' residual collective memories of eight minutes before their deaths, as like in the movie with Jake Gyllenhaal.
The device should be used somewhere in Washington D.C., accessible only to the CIA and S.S. for terrorism and high-profile assassinations. It can be used for the FBI, but they would need approval from a supreme court.
- Fight domestic terrorism.
- Stop high-profile assassination attempts.
- Uncover Top Secret enemy information.
- Expose dangerous conspiracies.
- Deter crime.
- Less murders means a decreased death toll.
- Drug Cartels, gangs, and organized crime would cease to exist.
- More concrete evidence = Less wrongful convictions.
- The US would be the most advanced nation on the planet.
- Retribution and closure for the families of victims of crime.
- Stop serial shootings.
- Too much violent crime.
- Police brutality.
- Inconsistent witness testimonies.
- Too many false accusations.
- The rate of wrongful executions.
- Dangerous cults like Scientology.
“Homicide rate in the U.S. continues to be high, with four major U.S. cities ranked among the 50 cities with the highest homicide rate in the world in 2019.”
“It also believes that Scientology is a criminal organization that engages in psycho-terror, money laundering and other forms of commercial fraud”
Level4: Other Mathematical Structures: This type of parallel universes is sort of a catch-all for other mathematical structures which we can conceive of, but which we don't observe as physical realities in our universe. The Level 4 parallel universes are ones which are governed by different equations from those that govern our universe... it's not just different manifestations of the same fundamental rules, but entirely different sets of rules.”
“1. Other Universes are Not UsAny potential benefits resulting from actions taken in the other universe do not affect our own. This technology can only provide information for our universe on what has already happened; it cannot prevent those acts. Pro also doesn’t support the view that this will somehow deter people from committing these crimes.”
- The knowledge that major criminal organizations are being stopped by this device should be enough to deter most would-be murderers.
- Premeditated murders would require more methodical planning, as the killer would have to remain undetected by the victim or have their identity concealed in order for the victim's memories to not be a threat to them with this device.
“Pro assumes that the individuals who are going through this multiversal travel are credible witnesses, which assumes that every person involved doesn’t fabricate or misinterpret, that it’s possible to obtain that information within 8 minutes, that courts will issue warrants based on single eye-witness testimony obtained in a separate universe, and that that information is accurate. Which leads into my next and most important point.”
- Only convict on credible evidence. If the person doing multiverse travel does identify the criminal, that should be conclusive enough to warrant an investigation. It is through the investigation alone that the criminal may be taken off-guard and where the detectives find something concrete.
- So long as the Source Code is used only as a tool to amplify investigating and doesn't substitute or become a crutch, I anticipate there will be more pros than potential cons.
- Incorporating the memories of all the victims in order to establish a stable pattern of events in order to make it most identical to the past of our current timeline as much as possible.
- This way events play out as accurately as they did then, thus minimizing any major alterations that are likely to cause us to misinterpret evidence.
- There should be two stages.: 1. Rough Draft. 2. Final Draft.
“Perhaps more importantly, though, this also can mangle those in other universes. Remember, this is multiverse travel. Anything that these individuals do in the span of 8 minutes could affect the people in those universes. If this technology will be developed at a price that makes it accessible to the US government, other actors will eventually develop it as well and many of those will use it for harm. Hell, even if we assume that it stays solely in the hands of the US government, we have a history replete with assassination attempts, false flag operations, initiating bloody coups, installing dictators, and facilitating drug lords and terrorists, and that's all excluding the usual use of overwhelming military might to directly take control of whole countries. Pro cannot assert how the US will use this tech, only that the US will raise the funds and develop the expertise to make it and, given our history, the US will most certainly misuse it to obtain information that furthers these efforts.”
- Our current security is so tight however, that the likelihood of terrorists or spies infiltrating or getting to it is nearly impossible.
- To ensure the government doesn’t use it for evil, we can push for tighter regulations and surveillance to bring about stronger accountability.
“Nothing about the technology precludes people using it for malicious purposes, and those aren’t confined to 8 minute periods. Jake Gyllenhaal’s character eventually finds a way to prevent the incident that would have claimed his life and goes on to live out the rest of his life as the person whose consciousness he replaced. Setting aside the existential horror of being able to do that, this means it’s not just possible, but probable that anyone using this machine could transfer to another universe and effectively begiven a clean slate to do whatever they want since their identity will be entirely different, creating new problems in the other universe. As such, all those harms that Pro lists in his R1 are passed onto countless other universes, far outstripping any potential benefit of obtaining information for ours.”
1. This debate is about the SCM, not some magically perfected version of it
“Incorporating the memories of all the victims...”
“…we can experiment with the device as many times as necessary…"
"When we have enough of an understanding of the machine..."
“…implement a self-destruct feature…”
“…push for tighter regulations and surveillance...”
“…they pose no harm to our current world...”
- The person accessing the device can go back in time as many times as they choose.
- The person can relive those experiences from the perspective of all of the victims.
- The government can take all of these individual experiments and establish a timeline of events. If there are no irregularities or inconsistencies between the memories of the victims and real life forensic evidence, we have 100% established the reliability of the machine.
- Find willing volunteers for clinical trials and disclose all of the risks.
- After a time of experimentation if there is no risk, then the device can be declared safe for use.
- If there is a risk, we can work on fixing it accordingly or disabandon the project and refund everyone their tax dollars.
- Charge expensively for the use.
- Require licensing that will take years to obtain.
- Require consent from higher authorities like the Judicial Branch.
“these people are both in the past and figments of the imagination, and of no real importance anyway… Killing them is like running over NPC’s in a video game…”
- Precautions can be taken by measuring the potential of possible invasions and reacting accordingly.
- Tighter security can prevent research from being leaked and guard technology.
- Using the Secret Service’s techniques for safe-guarding top secret information can also be applied to protect the Source Code.
- Although, I understand and relate to Con’s worries about these other universes having different rules.
- The likelihood of this is very low. It is more probable that the fabrication of events projected by the victims’ mind will be an accurate portrayal of reality.
- Realistically, the disclosure of said risks may be enough to discourage your average person, but there are people bold enough more than willing to go through anyway.
- Harmful risks, exist as they may, are necessary for the greater good. What’s one life compared to the new order they could create and the deaths they could prevent?
- Since Pro’s philosophy is actually logical and we need to show consistency. I don’t propose resorting to sadism or unnecessary brutality, but the priority is the mission in the default universe. The fates of these NPC’s are sealed either way, so valuing their lives for the sake of morality makes no difference and will not stop anything in the OG universe.
- In Re:Zero, the protagonist’s ability is “Return from Death.” He becomes suicidal and nearly loses his mind at least two times.
- In Steins;Gate, the protagonist uses Mental Time Travel to try to prevent a friend’s death. The experience nearly destroys him.
- In Puella Magi Madoka Magica, the deuteragonist Homura psychologically unravels over the course of a long series of time resets, eventually resulting in her transformation into a mindless, soulless witch and breaking basic laws of reality to get her way.
- In Source Code, the protagonist becomes progressively more exhausted and traumatized reliving these events over and over, seeking death after the mission ends.
- https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-definition-of-insanity-did-i-ever-tell-you-the-definition-of-insanity
- https://theportalwiki.com/wiki/Cave_Johnson_voice_lines
- https://half-life.fandom.com/wiki/Test_Shaft_09
- https://youtu.be/M628DuIEZ_o
- https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimeLoopFatigue
- https://www.cbr.com/rezero-subaru-deaths-chronological-order/
- https://youtu.be/0GCe1LAuSRk
- https://youtu.be/t-mz7XmqC8I
- https://youtu.be/BCf80uxBG8A
- https://youtu.be/lf_X-NLUDbY
- https://youtu.be/ufpmAQ7rtC8
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_Code#:~:text=On%20his%20next,Stevens%20eventually%20accepts
- https://www.polygon.com/23589732/multiverse-movie-villain-kang-everything-everywhere-batman-rick-morty
- https://redtreetimes.com/2020/05/22/welcome-to-earth/
I need to see this movie!
I think con was ahead with the investigative flaws before he dropped that, pros statement echoed his fears too well: “So long as the Source Code is used only as a tool to amplify investigating and doesn't substitute or become a crutch, I anticipate there will be more pros than potential cons.”
The view that killing people we won’t see again is ok so long as there are no consequences for us, is quite scary.
The view that the government would use the tech well, as opposed to twisting it into a tool for the CIA’s dark underbelly, seems like very wishful thinking. Same government who did all those crimes, and punished no one for them.
So ethically it is really best for the multiverse if the tech is not developed. President Kang would disagree but he’s not the one casting a vote in this universe.
Can’t tell if it’s a reference to the MCU or the Simpsons, but I’m going with the latter.
https://youtu.be/zRdNOQcfp-8
This was a pretty good line.:
“President Kang would disagree but he’s not the one casting a vote in this universe.”
Thanks for voting! I’ll add it to the pile of shows I plan to watch.
I need to google whether or not they made a video game version of the movie.
You two need to watch Person of Interest!
Point taken, though there's the question of whether this evidence comes from police directly or from a less reliable source and simply being presented by police. Didn't end up taking that point very far anyway, but I appreciate the insight.
Police testimony is treated like evidence in the court of law. Me personally I was a juror and viewed them as skeptically as anyone else, particularly since they held the interrogation in a room without cameras and refused to do any gun powder residue testing, but I think most jurors are not like me and will actually obey jury instructions
I think that the realistic offers more questions about what could happen, i.e. the mechanics of how the technology performs, whereas the theoretical offers more discussion about whether it should happen, since we can better define what the technology is and how it works as a baseline. I think both have their benefits. I don’t mind doing either one, but this is what we went with and this is what we are debating.
If you want to discuss the limits of existing tech, that might be a good basis for a debate, but I’m not sure how you’d define the parameters for it.
you would rather debate a theoretical rather than the realistic?
the description says "as like" so i understood that as any machine that could collect 8 minutes of thought before death.
be it on a quantum computer to a 2023 macbook.
heck the chip has analog to digital converter using binary code. scrap the 2023 macbook we could watch it on tv or a windows xp. the hardest part is converting the info to video.
The literal title of this debate and the description involves technology from the movie, so that’s the focus of our discussion. It might be interesting to explore the ideas you’re discussing based on existing tech, but that’s not what we’re doing in this debate.
i would hesitate before saying its not possible. musk has been working hard on technology that transmits thoughts.
he already has animals playing pong with their brain and is doing human testing.
https://youtu.be/L3XxbxfgzoQ
why is this debate turned into multiverse theory and quantum mechanics? there is no need to have theoretical arguements about something that is possible without applying these ideas.
the chip put in a human mind can transmit thoughts, the data processed from the brain to the chip can be stored and transmitted to a database. as long as there is an electrical impulse.
or it can be retrieved from the corpse and recompile the thoughts during/preceding its death. this will not negate or dismiss criminal investigation but rather make it more cohesive on depositions.
forget the movie. focus on the benefits/failings of recompiling last thoughts of someone who died.
I've seen the movie, just didn't realize that's what it was until I read the description.
It’s like one of those movies or stories where a person’s consciousness is transferred into the main character of a video game and interacts with the NPC’s, except based in time simulation.
This does look interesting. When I first read the title, I thought this was in reference to open-source codes and I got excited for serious policy debates, though this seems just as interesting.
You guys will enjoy this one.
This looks like a fun read unless whiteflame takes it too seriously.