God, as portrayed in the bible, cannot reasonably exist to the words of the bible.
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- 5
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- Two weeks
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- Open
Personal interpretations of the bible will not be used in this debate, it will be a debate solely around what the bible says. This means that the Bible will be interpreted from a literal standpoint and not a metaphoric one.
So, how can an infinite merciful God send people who don't believe in him to hell?
I think you answered your own question by giving the determining factor. The ones who believe in him. Let's say you have a party and you invite your friends. They accidently spill some red wine on your white carpet. Are you going to throw them away and never talk to them again? Let's say some thugs that you didn't invite come to that same party and they start getting a little loud and create a ruckus? Are you going to let them stay there?
If you have a child, tell me, what can that child ever do to make you stop loving him or her? The answer is NOTHING.
If you have a criminal that just broke into your house, what could he do that would stop you from calling the police? What would stop you from shooting the guy if he tries to hurt your family? Again, it is NOTHING.
A good question would be, how can a good person deny the powerful way that God can try and save them? If God is all powerful and that he has every intention that no one should be lost, then how can this "good person" not be saved by God in the same way every Christian is saved?
God does not just automatically save people. People have to come to God. God will create the way.
Also, the book of Ephesians is written to people already saved in the church at Ephesus. I know some parts of the epistles are referring to other people besides the church, but in this case it is clearly referring to the Christians and not to everybody as a whole.
Of course there are things that could make me not love my child
If God made my computer screen right now flash that he exists, or God sent me a direct sign saying that he exists; I would believe in him.If God wanted to save those people, why didn't he tell the Native Americans about Christianity before Columbus. . .Supposing this is true, why doesn't God just come to people and say he exists? Why does he let people, many of whom have never heard about Christianity fall into Hell just because of his inactivity?
What do you mean it is referring to Christians but not everybody as a whole? If you mean it is intended for Christians to read it, that doesn't change the fact that God can do anything (including sending nonbelievers to heaven).
The description is also a trap, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Because it has limited the verses to only being taken at face value and ignoring underwritten context which is both a significant part to the Bible as well as Con’s case. This completely strips Con’s side of any power and is a clear auto-win for Pro because Con will not be able to argue their side if I assume the rules apply. I know this is a trap because my debating is a nit-picking, trap-setting style.
Pro’s 1 Case:
God has infinite, unyielding mercy. (Lamentations 3:22-23). But this is inconsistent with the fact that God sends people to Hell.
God can do anything, as he has limitless power/omnipotence. (Ephesians 3:20-21)
Pro attempts to make the case that God couldn’t exist by appealing to his inconsistent morals, but argues that God cannot simultaneously show absolute mercy and ruthless punishment while also contradicting himself by pointing out God’s ability to do anything.
This is such a weak argument from Pro, that is irrelevant to anything the title says.
Con’s 1 Case:
Does not have to prove that God can exist, just has to refute Pro’s case.
Just because God is a loving and kind father does not mean he will tolerate disobedience. (A retort that says God can be merciful while also enforcing the rules.)
God does not automatically rescue people, as he already gave everyone a free pass to make the right choice. It is everyone’s own responsibility to take the path God intended for them.
Okay, this is a good starting argument from Con, but I would’ve liked to see more pushback on the description. Namely, the fact that the rule only allows for a “literal” interpretation. Con should have REALLY used a Kritik this round and while I liked seeing Con state he will only focus on retorts. Perhaps, he should have clarified Pro’s burden a little more.
Pro’s 2 Case:
God has a moral obligation to stop evil people from getting into Heaven.
God is a hypocrite and lets 6 million people burn while enabling murderers and letting them get away with their atrociousness scot-free.
Therefore, God does not exist.
I would not love my child if he was a killer.
God is all-powerful and wants everyone to be saved, so he should show himself to everyone instead of leaving it up to free will and being surprised there are skeptics.
God can do anything, so he can send people to Heaven. Therefore, he should send non-believers to Heaven.
Once again, Pro is NOT arguing the resolution. Pro, you’re supposed to be citing passages and arguing that God does not exist, based on the verses in the Bible. You could give a perfectly legitimate monologue about how God is unjust, and the monologue could be considered irrefutable. And it still wouldn’t win the debate simply because you went off-topic.
Okay, Pro’s argument about God not appearing to everyone is actually a solid point that casts doubt on whether God exists, but it doesn’t prove anything because what Pro is arguing is an absolute.
The point about God’s omnipotence and power, as well as Hell is also another point. This puts the debate back on equal footing.
Con’s 2 Case:
(Forfeit)
Pro’s 3 Case:
Extend.
Con’s 3 Case:
Belief requires action.
Love does not mean approval.
God has shown himself to people and they refuse to believe. If direct transparency cannot convince people, most skeptics would brush it off as delusion.
God wants people to love him of their own free will, not because he forces them to.
Con has done a great job retorting Pro’s arguments and it’s a good thing Pro opted to extend because if he brought in more arguments, it might’ve scaled the debate in Pro’s favor because Con would be overwhelmed with the flooding of text. Now Con’s response here is effective because it shows that God is not responsible for making up the minds of people and they have the freedom to decide.
The weak retort is when Con says God wants people to love him of their own free will and not through force, which is ironic because God is indirectly threatening them with hellfire if they choose not to come to him, and God being an almighty being has the power to stop this as pointed out by Pro. So if God truly wanted this, then why wouldn’t he stop it? Is he incapable or unwilling? If he is unwilling, then perhaps he isn’t as moral as he could be.
Pro’s 4 Case:
Forfeit.
Con’s 4 Case:
Extend.
Okay, really interesting argument.
I went into this expecting it to be a trap debate and it really could have been, but it was so poorly set-up and sloppily executed, that I'm unconvinced Pro was intending to do that. Based on what Pro is arguing, the resolution is also poorly formatted, the debate topic should have been, "God's portrayal by the words of the Bible is inconsistent." If that was the debate title, then this would've been an immediate win for Pro, but that wasn't the subject.
Alrighty
Yes.
It’s how I got Voting Privileges to DavidAZ.
Really?
If I challenge you to three separate debates and you accept them immediately, you could have voting privileges in the next 3 hours.
Appreciate the feedback!
Sadly I’m not able to vote, I’m trying to but my opponents keep forfeiting in debates, which is completely delaying me. I haven’t finished three debates yet.
I only have 17 hours left. Anybody have time to put their two cents in with a vote?
Yes, I will.
Can you look this over and vote? It's my second real debate and need feedback.
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son" (John 3:18)
This encapsulates so much; if only you paid attention to what you quoted. Everyone is condemned "by default" because of sin. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, everyone's a sinner and the wages of sin is death. Having faith in the unmerited saving grace of Christ and what He did, having the Holy Spirit is what saves from condemnation. This is why unbelievers are not saved from condemnation, they do not take the Saving Pass, the Advocate, they have not Christ. It is an indirect consequence of their unbelief and a direct consequence of their sin (though those two may not be so exclusive).
Your mom cannot reasonably exist in the words of the bible.
That's fine!
Sorry! I've been super busy lately and didn't find time to respond last round. I will work on this now.
Just a reminder that you have 7 hours (at the time of writing this) to post your response.