Instigator / Con

Solby

1500

rating

debates

16.67%

won

Topic

#4532

For or Against Abortion

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 4 votes and with 4 points ahead, the winner is...

Phenenas

Tags

Abortion

Parameters

Publication date: 05.25.2023 06:57AM
Last updated date: 06.11.2023 05:20AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: Two weeks
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Open

Contender / Pro

Phenenas

1522

rating

debates

58.33%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

Solby

05.25.2023 07:08AM

Con

I feel that abortion is just like if i were to kill a person but i also feel in some cases abortion can be justified such as in if the women was r@ped and she does want to carry a reminder of a very hard time in her life. If you get pregnant after CONSENSUAL sex it is your fault for taking that risk and sometimes people are allergic to latex but they make condoms that don't have latex in them and maybe birth control is an option and for some its not available but if you don't want to risk getting pregnant then dont have sex.

Phenenas

05.25.2023 09:32AM

Pro

Thank you for your opening argument, Con. I will be making the argument that abortion should be legal.

Opponents of abortion often equate abortion with murder. But I believe abortion is a morally neutral act. Why? It causes no suffering. Fetuses are unable to feel pain until approximately 24-25 weeks of pregnancy, when the necessary nerve connections and brain structures are developed.¹ Fetuses are also not considered conscious until around the same time, which means they cannot think, feel, or experience anything as a human being would.² Before this, and especially in the first trimester, we’re talking about what is essentially a cluster of cells. A thing that is alive in the same sense that an amoeba is alive. It will not experience death because it lacks the capacity to experience anything at all. I believe abortion should be illegal once the point of consciousness has been reached, around the start of the third trimester. But the vast majority of abortions, over 93%, are done after less than 13 weeks.³

But the main reason I support abortion is because of the very real consequences of banning it. While abortion causes no suffering, forcing women to give birth to unwanted babies causes a lot. Pregnancy can be a physically and psychologically traumatizing process, especially an unwanted one. And the resulting baby will likely face a childhood of neglect and hardship in the foster homes. And the reality of pro-life policy is even more horrifying. In my state of Louisiana, which passed a total ban on abortion the moment Roe v. Wade was overturned, things are grim. There is no exception here for rape, including underage girls who were raped. I know you said you support an exception in cases of rape, so I won’t linger on that. And because our laws are so strict, our doctors are terrified to operate in cases of miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy where the mother’s life is literally at stake.⁴ How can we say banning abortion makes the world a better place when this is the result?

Con has also stated that if a woman gets pregnant after consensual sex, it’s her responsibility to bear the child. I believe in the right of consenting adults to have sex not for the sole purpose of reproduction - because sex is a fun, pleasurable experience. But I would argue that this point is actually irrelevant to the question of whether abortion is good or bad. Even if we point the finger and say it’s the woman’s fault for getting knocked up (which I don’t), that doesn’t say anything about abortion itself. I could still believe abortion is a morally neutral act. So it’s like if I got drunk and went skateboarding, and then I fell down and broke my leg. I made a stupid and irresponsible decision, yes. Does that mean I shouldn’t be allowed to get surgery? Of course not. I made a mistake, but that doesn’t mean I have to suffer with my broken bones. You could point at me and say it was my fault all you liked, but that would have no bearing on whether or not I should receive medical care. The difference with abortion is the possibility that another person might be harmed, which is the question that really matters here in my opinion.

Sources:

1. https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-are-important/gestational-development-capacity-for-pain

2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25160864/

3. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/ss/ss7110a1.htm

4. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doctors-detail-unintended-consequences-of-louisiana-abortion-ban-60-minutes-2023-04-30/

Round 2

Solby

05.27.2023 05:54PM

Con

Your opinion is very interesting and you give very good points.

Abortion to me is like if I were to go and kill someone I don't want around anymore or someone I didn't intend to be in my life.
To me abortion shows that life is just like a plastic spoon, you can throw it away at anytime or a grain of sand and its just sad how people can throw life away and sometimes its justified like if its a health risk or if the pregnancy is from r@pe. I agree that abortion should be legal but only to a point you should have evidence and good reasons because if you are pregnant and you took that risk at your own will then that is your fault.
It would would make sexual education useless because people know that "Oh, If I get pregnant I can just get an abortion" that's no okay you still need so many things to keep you and your body healthy.
If your get pregnant and you feel like you don't want the baby there are thousands of couples who want to adopt kids, some cant have kids and some just don't want to have any of their own but they still want a baby and if you cant take care of the baby and you don't want the baby then you can put it up for adoption.
Some people say that abortion is safer then childbirth, that is a big lie. A February 2012 article in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology claimed that “the risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than that with abortion.” Yet Priscilla Coleman, Professor of Human Development and Family Studies at Bowling Green State University, says that the study was a “‘dangerous distortion’—and deliberately misleading.” <--This is from https://www.hli.org/resources/alternatives-to-abortion/

Sorry if my statement is short. Everything said is what i think aside from the last point that is from an article that shows other options instead of abortion.

Thank you for reading this and plz no hate, everyone has their own opinion.

Phenenas

06.04.2023 05:20AM

Pro

Thank you for your last argument, Con. Here’s my final response.

Con reiterates that she sees abortion as equivalent to killing someone. Not everyone feels this way, and I will reiterate my point that a fetus is not conscious and will not experience pain or death less than 24-25 weeks after conception.

We seem to agree that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or medical emergency. Con states that abortion should be legal up to a point. This is where we could have benefitted from some definitions and clarification of the topic, because part of my argument was arguing why it should be legal. I will assume that Con means if we think abortion is good or bad from a moral standpoint. Thankfully, I have also been arguing for this.

It would would make sexual education useless because people know that "Oh, If I get pregnant I can just get an abortion"

What would make sexual education useless? Abortion being legal? I’m confused as to whether Con wants abortion to be legal or not. Con is talking about this as if it’s a hypothetical scenario, but abortion is already legal in many places that have schools with sex education. And I don’t really see any evidence that abortion encourages teenagers to practice unsafe sex. In fact, the rate of teenage pregnancy is higher¹ in conservatives states more likely to ban abortion. I agree that sex education should teach how sex works and how to practice it safely and stay healthy. I’m not sure what position Con was arguing against there, but it isn’t mine.

If your [sic] get pregnant and you feel like you don't want the baby there are thousands of couples who want to adopt kids,

There are several moral problems with the “just give it up for adoption” argument. First of all, this means women who would otherwise get abortions will go through the physically and psychologically² traumatizing ordeal of pregnancy. Which, as I said in Round 1, would be so much more painful with an unwanted baby. Perhaps some would say that a woman “deserves” this pain for the crime of engaging in consensual sex. But I find this line of guilting and shaming women for such things stems from patriarchal, religious, or cultural concerns rather than sound, humane moral reasoning.

Second, it would be an act of cruelty to bring so many human beings into the world just to thrust them into a foster care system that sets them up for failure. This is not to say that people who grew up in foster care are lesser in any way, but taking America as an example, it is a broken system that fails children. 50% of foster care youth will not graduate high school on time, 48% of girls in foster care become pregnant by age 19, a third of homeless young adults were previously in foster care, and people with a foster care childhood are 4 times likelier than average to attempt suicide.³ It seems clear that children benefit from growing up with loving parents and a stable, secure environment, and robbed of this stability, they are much more susceptible to mental health issues, antisocial tendencies, and poor decision-making. If a kid is lucky enough to get adopted early on by a nice, well-off family, they will avoid this problem, but this is a small minority. It’s clearly immoral to ban abortion without first reforming the adoption system and fixing these problems.

Some people say that abortion is safer then [sic] childbirth, that is a big lie.

When one thinks about what the female body has to go through during childbirth versus abortion, it makes total sense that abortion would be safer. Childbirth’s dangers were alleviated by the invention of modern medicine, but it’s estimated that in the 17th and 18th centuries, about 1% to 1.5% of women giving birth died in the process.⁴ Con states that a peer reviewed, rigorously researched study showing that abortion is less likely to result in death than childbirth is wrong because of a claim by former professor Priscilla Coleman. She cites Human Life International, a Catholic anti-abortion organization which advocates against contraceptives⁵. Coleman has been criticized by fellow researchers for logical inconsistency, faulty methodology, and finding results that could not be reproduced from the same dataset⁶. Her criticism of the paper seems more motivated by her politics than objective, disinterested scholarly opinion. I see no reason to trust her brief dismissal of Raymond and Grimes’ research over the research itself.

I’ve tried to prove that abortion, on the whole, is a morally neutral, justifiable action. Abortion causes no suffering or pain to the fetus purportedly being murdered before it attains consciousness around 24-25 weeks, after which I oppose abortion except in cases of medical emergency. But banning abortion causes much suffering, to women and to unwanted children brought into the world. I have tried to take stock of a wide range of suffering that occurs, including mental health and trauma, and concluded that abortion alleviates more suffering than it causes. And I have argued that alternatives listed by Con such as adoption and abstinence are not realistic options.

I hope everyone votes for whoever made the more convincing argument rather than their own opinion on this contentious issue. Thank you for the debate, Con.

Sources:

1. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/teen-pregnancy-rates-by-state

2. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

3. https://www.foster-america.org/the-problem

4. https://slate.com/technology/2013/09/death-in-childbirth-doctors-increased-maternal-mortality-in-the-20th-century-are-midwives-better.html

5. https://web.archive.org/web/20210622082930/https://bilerico.lgbtqnation.com/2013/02/an_open_letter_to_lifesitenews_regarding_anti-gay.php

6. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S027795361000729X?via%3Dihub

Slainte

06.05.2023 07:46PM

Criterion

Con

Tie

Pro

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

A tough read. Con did not help themselves in any way as there was no precision, and there were contradictions. Pro did well highlighting where Con was incorrect. I did not see Con really attack Pro's arguments.

Lemming

06.05.2023 07:05AM

Criterion

Con

Tie

Pro

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Solby, R1
Makes argument on people's ability to not have sex,
Thus for most people,
'Choice to be pregnant.

Phenenas, R1
Makes argument that early on, fetus lacks both pain or consciousness/self.
Their argument on suffering,
Makes me think of what if an individual killed another person who was sleeping,
But of course that's not what Phenenas is saying, I think.

Phenenas makes argument that 'forcing pregnancies to be carried would 'cause suffering, where none might have existed before,
(Their argument of early fetus lacking pain/consciousness/self)
They also make argument that life threatening abortions might not be preformed, that would put the mother's life at high risk.

Phenenas argument that sex is harmless because of their first argument on what they claim a fetus lacks, 'Only works if their first argument is convincing.

Phenenas includes sources for their claims.

Solby, R2
Makes argument on how abortion shows a complete disregard for the fetus as a life,
'But they still need to address Phenenas's claims in 'some fashion,
Whether making argument that fetus 'does have something to it, whether individualism/pain/consciousness/self/soul/sacred value so on.
Or that we ought value the fetus for some other reason,
Which they try with sexual education,
The flaw of which are the existence of STDs and pregnancy, 'even if one can have an abortion, not really 'pleasant.
But I don't know yet if Phenenas makes this argument on sex education point.

Solby makes argument that children can be adopted, if there is danger of them growing up unwanted by their parents.

Solby makes argument and sources, of dangers involved in abortion.

Phenenas, R2
Makes argument that Solby's claim that pregnancies might occur at higher frequency, not backed by statistics,
Using a 'tiny 1 as a source, but it 'is a source,
And backs their claim.
(Observation by me, that sources can be wrong or misleading, not that Phenenas's is or is not)

Phenenas argument that is is wrong to guilt women into not having an abortion,
This argument 'Only applies if their first claim is correct,
Of the early fetus having no pain/consciousness/soul.
However Solby did not strongly address this argument of Phenenas's.

Phenenas makes argument that it would be cruel to bring so many into existence and put them in foster care, which can be a hard existence.
This argument 'Only applies if their first claim is correct,
Of the early fetus having no pain/consciousness/soul.
However Solby did not strongly address this argument of Phenenas's.

Phenenas makes argument that Solby's source on the dangers of pregnancy/abortion,
Are not backed by some other researchers,
Uses sources.
(Observation by me, that sources can be wrong or misleading, not that Solby's is or is not)
. . . . . . . . . .

Overall, Solby does not manage to make a strong case for why we must consider the fetus sacred,
Rather their argument 'assumes the sacredness of it,
Which is 'fair, assuming that others hold the same assumption.
However Phenenas disagrees with this assumption, makes argument for why 'not to consider it so sacred, and uses sources to back their arguments.

For me this is the biggest point in the debate,
One not addressed by Solby,
I would say near all of Phenenas's other arguments require the truth of this argument,
Which isn't a bad thing,
But it's why my vote of argument goes to Phenenas,

Sources to Phenenas, as they used the prolifically, as well as making argument towards discrediting a number of Solby's sources.
Spelling and Grammar, equal in both sides.
Conduct, both were polite, respectful, showed an interest in each other's arguments, thoughts towards the subject.
. . .

Bit Shameless Plugs to Myself Below,
Consider voting on a debate?
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4497-ought-be-a-legal-right-to-dueling

Some forum topics on the subject of abortion,
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7557-supreme-court-votes-to-overturn-roe-v-wade-draft-shows?page=1
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8045-every-pro-lifer-always-without-fail-gets-it-wrong-on-abortion?page=6
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8797-schelling-points-around-personhood?page=1
An old debate of mine,
https://web.archive.org/web/20210621051416/https://www.debate.org/debates/Abortion/782/

Barney

06.04.2023 11:29PM

Criterion

Con

Tie

Pro

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Seems like pro was just helping con with his homework… looking at just one of the points, con refutes himself with the dangers of childbirth, and then without any evidence calls himself wrong. Pro explains that con was originally correct, citing historical death rates.

Savant

06.04.2023 01:31PM

Criterion

Con

Tie

Pro

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con's arguments shift over the course of the debate, and Pro responds to all of their main points. Con doesn't bother to respond to the consciousness argument, which is enough for me to give the win to Pro. Also, Pro provides way more support for their points via sources.