Instigator / Pro

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Topic

#4562

THBT: Christianity is a contradiction to Judaism.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...

Sir.Lancelot

Parameters

Publication date: 06.05.2023 08:10PM
Last updated date: 07.04.2023 03:53PM
Type: Rated
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,500
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open
Minimal rating: None

Contender / Con

Mall

1476

rating

336

debates

40.77%

won

Description

(Resolution: The beliefs of Christianity contradict the stories/lessons/perspective of Orthodox Judaism.)

Orthodox Judaism- Orthodox Judaism, the religion of those Jews who adhere most strictly to traditional beliefs and practices. Jewish Orthodoxy resolutely refuses to accept the position of Reform Judaism that the Bible and other sacred Jewish writings contain not only eternally valid moral principles but also historically and culturally conditioned adaptations and interpretations of the Law that may be legitimately discarded in modern times.

Christianity: Catholicism and all denominations under Protestantism.

Round 1

Sir.Lancelot

06.16.2023 02:32PM

Pro

Christianity purports stories of Jesus, The Messiah. God, but in The Living Flesh.

Jesus cannot be the Messiah because he does not meet the Jewish criteria.:

The Messiah has to be a direct descendant of David. Jesus has no mortal father.
The Messiah was supposed to create the Third Temple of Israel. Jesus did not accomplish this.
The Messiah is supposed to bring peace on Earth. Jesus also failed to accomplish this.

Mall

06.17.2023 02:11PM

Con

Upon reading Wikipedia after doing a Google search, the following says "Judaism emphasizes the Oneness of God and rejects the Christian concept of God in human form. While Christianity recognizes the Hebrew Bible (called the Old Testament by Christians) as part of its scriptural canon, Judaism does not recognize the Christian New Testament."

The topic title uses the word"contradiction". Let that be the term to note.

Contradictions only exist in the same position. Judaism and Christianity are two different positions.

Like North and South are in two different positions. They don't contradict as they're separate directions.

If I'm standing or going towards my north and then you say I also am going towards my south, you're voluntarily contradicting the two separate directions that have no conflicting nature.

You likewise do this with two theistic positions different in nature.

You decide to do this upon your faulty rationalization.

If I say my south is the same as my north, then I'm contradicting my own viewpoint or in this case, vantage point.

Likewise labeling myself Christian with Judaist views .

I believe in the doctrines of Jesus while not believing in the new testament at all.

Contradictions are within the same position. Contradictions are not differences between different positions. They're just differences period.

I call myself a Christian, you call yourself one. People know I believe in all the bible. People would not think you wouldn't believe in any of it on account of you calling yourself Christian.

You being a Christian and telling people you don't believe in Christ or the teachings thereof is a contradiction.

This is what I basically had to establish from the get go just off the title alone.

From looking at what you had to say, you perhaps just outlined the religious contrast.

The religious contradictions would be a Christian accepting homosexuality as righteous before God.

Another would be "Chris-lam".

Two Christians may have these antithetical views.

I understand there's different denominations. The key term there is "different". It has to be in the same denomination.

Within a single situation, same space, same time are where conflicts are identified.

Round 2

Sir.Lancelot

06.17.2023 04:07PM

Pro

Christianity is an extension of Judaism in the same way a sequel is to an original.

It’s not as simple as a difference in geography.

The topic title uses the word"contradiction". Let that be the term to note.

Contradictions only exist in the same position. Judaism and Christianity are two different positions.

Let’s say I make a movie and it’s established that there is only one Chosen One and that the Chosen One is an african american male with a European mother and an American dad. Who just so happens to be my MC.

Then I sell the rights of my movie to another filming company and they decide to make a second, but they change the lore, disregarding everything about the rules and backstory of the first movie.

The new Chosen One is now a white, middle-aged suburban woman. How is this not a direct contradiction of the storyline preceding it?

I call myself a Christian, you call yourself one. People know I believe in all the bible. People would not think you wouldn't believe in any of it on account of you calling yourself Christian.

Christians accept that Jews are God’s chosen people. This means their beliefs were God’s official rulings.

In Judaism, there was no Hell or Lake of Fire. That is a Christian concept.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/heaven-and-hell-in-jewish-tradition/

Mall

06.18.2023 10:43PM

Con

"Christianity is an extension of Judaism in the same way a sequel is to an original. "

Still two separate arts. This is why many complain about sequels. They wanted the original instead of getting a totally different idea.

"It’s not as simple as a difference in geography."

If you tell a Judaist they're the same as a Christian , it's disrespect to their position. The two are not interchangeable. If they were, then you can argue contradictions as they both would be the same or supposed to be the same.

One can't branch from another because they're not on the same tree . An oak and pine tree are two different trees. They don't conflict as they can exist at the same time separately. What grows on a pine tree is not on the other, that would contradict.

"How is this not a direct contradiction of the storyline preceding it? "

In regards to the films, they're two separate films. If this all happened in the same film and you were told as the audience this is the same character and even the credits use only one name of the two persons, you know you got a contradiction. Same space, same time, it it's not possible in the very same film. You can't have two different people actually be the same person. See I'm going beyond what's in a story. I'm also dealing with things realistically.

Just like in some films, the sequels do have a different actor or actress from another that played the character in the original piece or in one of the installments.

Did the character change or was it re-casting?

According to your example, "The Chosen One" is still "The Chosen One". The character didn't change, just the casting.

It depends on how finicky you'd depict to be a conflicting character.

If you are a true watcher of motion pictures, you should know that installments are an opportunity for stories to be rewritten creations to explain changes in a character or the plot . All sorts of creative ways to reinvent, add something, take something out . The point is, by doing all this, the film itself is becoming more and more different in a class of it's own. Not in the same class where they're antithetical issues.

This is how what they call remakes, rehashes,reboots and re-imaginings come about.

I also want to make this clear. Judaism is not the first religion in terms of beliefs and then the beliefs of Christ was born subsequently.

The scriptures point out the prophets in the old testament already containing the beliefs of Christ before the title Christian was even called out.

Judaism just rejects a lot of this as they're of a different scope.

"Christians accept that Jews are God’s chosen people. This means their beliefs were God’s official rulings. "

According to Christians that hold consistency,only "Jews" that are God's chosen people are the same ones that are spiritual Jews which would be those calling themselves Christians as well. Now you have to make the distinction of those "Jews" versus what you have here in the topic "Judaism".

I stated the distinction. Christians that believe they're are chosen or saved will not believe those practicing Judaism are saved or chosen of God because in Judaism as it was stated, the new testament and Christ is denied. So those Christians are not going to believe God will choose a people that deny Christ through whom He would save them through or choose in Him to be adopted into the church.

"In Judaism, there was no Hell or Lake of Fire. That is a Christian concept. "

Right two different positions. If one Christian believes the whole bible, believes in hell while another Christian doesn't but believes in the whole bible as well, now we have a contradiction. Contradictions exist as non-sequiturs in the same space, at the same time, in the same position. In actuality, it cancels out. You'll never see Judaism and Christianity interchangeable because they're two separate directions. Just like what grows on the pine tree won't be on the oak tree.

Round 3

Sir.Lancelot

06.18.2023 10:52PM

Pro

To be a Christian requires you to accept Judaism as true. So even though the two existed at different times, Christianity cannot exist without Judaism. However, The Bible claims Eve is Adam's first wife. Judaism says it was Lilith. This is a significant contradiction.

Lilith (/ˈlɪlɪθ/ LIH-lith; Hebrew: לִילִית, romanized: Līlīṯ), also spelt Lilit, Lilitu, or Lilis, is a female figure in Mesopotamian and Judaic mythology, theorized to be the first wife of Adam and supposedly the primordial she-demon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

Con says,

According to your example, "The Chosen One" is still "The Chosen One". The character didn't change, just the casting.

My example is referring to the character.

Extend all previous arguments and sources about The Messiah and Judaism/Christianity.

Mall

06.20.2023 03:53PM

Con

"To be a Christian requires you to accept Judaism as true."

You apparently have a different meaning for what a Christian would be. Let me just outlined probably once more upon me identifying a Christian. What constitutes a Christian for example is the one I'm identifying as whom believes all of the bible.

Given that a Judaist does not, we're outlining two different positions.

"So even though the two existed at different times, Christianity cannot exist without Judaism."

This goes back to the meaning of Christianity you're using. In terms of organized religion by man is one thing. In terms of the essential beliefs, both are not interchangeable and are completely separable. One is not dependent on the other.

You're under the impression one came first and gave birth.

This is not so in terms of core beliefs. Again , the old testament shadowed much of what was to come in the new covenant to include the Messiah.

You got Isaiah 7 old testament, Isaiah 9 old testament, Deuteronomy 18, Zechariah 12, 2 Samuel 7, all old testament.

You're not really putting effort in challenging everything from my side particularly scripturally.

"However, The Bible claims Eve is Adam's first wife. Judaism says it was Lilith. This is a significant contradiction."

Until you change your foundation of Judaism and Christianity being interchangeable, everything will just appear contradictive to you.

An oak tree and a pine tree will not be distinctive or individual as far as you are concerned. They're one in the same.

You just have an erroneous foundation from the start.

"My example is referring to the character.

Extend all previous arguments and sources about The Messiah and Judaism/Christianity."

My point exactly. You're not really challenging what I'm saying. You respond with "my example is" this and that's what it is . It's just you said what you said kind of deal like you have nothing really to rebut .

You didn't refute that Judaism involves people only accepting part of the biblical scriptures. You didn't really address that the beliefs classified under the title Christianity was not subsequent due to Judaism.

You just reiterated or emphasized one came before the other. Your responses are short along with only 3 rounds.

I don't know if you just didn't have that much knowledge on the topic or was not prepared to be taken up on the challenge.

It's a wrap.

bigdiknazi

06.17.2023 03:21PM

Hey best,.Korea lets debate

Best.Korea

06.17.2023 02:59PM

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@bigdiknazi

Not sure what you mean. The debates are 1vs1.

bigdiknazi

06.17.2023 02:54PM

Can u join more than 10 players

hey-yo

06.07.2023 04:35AM

If time between debate was extended, Id join. But do whats good for you.

Slainte

06.05.2023 09:05PM

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@Nyxified

@Sir.Lancelot

I think this could be a fun debate if it was about an adjective. Something a little subjective. like ethical, moral, honourable, virtuous, conscientious etc.

As Christians believe that Jesus is the son of god, and Jewish people do not believe the same, that is a contradiction, so I agree with Nyxefid and the topic is a truism, and not debatable.

Savant

06.05.2023 08:33PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

Probably best to define "Judaism" and "Christianity" in the description. Are we including any group that calls themselves Jewish? Any group that calls themself Christian?

Nyxified

06.05.2023 08:28PM

I think this would be better if you specified beliefs or values.

Beliefs would make this a truism. Values would be an actual debate.

Barney

07.03.2023 04:39AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con basically argued because they contradict each other, they can’t be said to contradict each other since they’re different.
Pro on the other hand shows the main contradiction in their lore, and defends with a movie series analogy to confirm continuing works in the same field can disagree and be disruptive due to their contradictions.
Pro goes on to show another example with Adam’s baby mammas, which con uses an appeal to not understanding it so it must be wrong…

Easy pro victory.

Slainte

06.21.2023 01:09AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

This was interesting. The first round was great. Each made a very good point, leaving me wanting to read the next rounds. I just wish Con would change their formatting. Their debates are very hard to read.

Con has a great argument that because one does not equate to the other, there is no contradiction. I accept that principle.

For me, when Pro made it clear that the foundations of Christianity are based on Judaism, I saw that as an unrecoverable wound to Con's argument.