Instigator / Con
0
1522
rating
14
debates
28.57%
won
Topic
#4764
There is absolute, definitive proof that the God portrayed in the Bible exists.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
0
1309
rating
269
debates
40.71%
won
Description
Pro has BOP to show that there is absolute, definitive proof that the God portrayed in the Bible exists. Pro must also show why the God from the Bible must exist and not other versions of God from abrahamic religions or other religions in general. So, for instance, a generalized argument that proves the existence of God but not the biblical God specifically will not work as that argument can used to justify the existence of a non-biblical God (for instance, Allah from Islam). Pro automatically forfeits if their name is Mall.
Round 1
Burden of proof is on pro for this argument, so I don't need to make an argument but only to disprove the argument of pro. Therefor, I will forfeit this round as there are no rebuttals to make against pro's arguments yet.
Topic
There is absolute, definitive proof that the God portrayed in the Bible exists.
Introduction
For the purpose of this debate, I feel that it needs to be made clear that we are not debating if Bible has contradictions or not. God can make mistakes intentionally for a certain purpose. What we are debating is 1. God exists and 2. Christian God exists. I must prove both of these, in order to uphold my burden of proof.
Definitions
God portrayed in the Bible is Jesus, who is God in his final form.
Arguments
1. The problem of beginning proves God
Ordinary things dont appear out of nothing today, and they never have. There is no proof of that ever happening, and there is no logical explanation on how "nothing" causes something. What caused "nothing" to become "something"? "Nothing" cannot cause a beginning of something. Cause must be "something". If "nothing" could cause something, then we would see something coming from nothing today.
That is, unless we add God to the explanation.
An all powerful being is a good explanation for the beginning of everything.
God can create itself out of nothing. God is an all powerful being. Having all powers includes being able to create itself.
2. The problem of existence proves God
An existence had to have a beginning. Can things exist for no reason? No. However, every reason is also "a thing". Therefore, every reason must have a reason for its existence. That brings us to conclusion that endless number of reasons had to happen to reach where we are today. However, "endless path" doesnt have an end. Therefore, in order to reach the point of today, we had to reach the end of this "endless path". We had to cross an endless path and reach its end - a logical impossibility.
God is a good explanation for beginning. God can cause a beginning by creating itself out of nothing. Having all powers includes having power to create itself out of nothing.
3. The problem of movement proves God
As we have already explained, endless path is impossible to cross. Therefore, our path had to have a beginning or we would never reach where we are today.
Same logic that applies to reasons applies to movement. Only God can cause movement to happen out of nothing. Only God can be the first mover. Every thing that moves was moved by something.
The first mover or the unmoved mover theory says that there was a first thing which moved, but wasnt moved by anything.
4. God's footsteps: The problem of clues proves God
We dont have any clues that God doesnt exist. However, we have many clues that he does indeed exist. Great number of people believing in God, feeling and seeing God's presence in their lives and seeing God - these are all clues. God being the most logical explanation for beginning of everything is a clue of God's existence.
Therefore, going by clues, it is more likely that God exists, since there are clues that he does but there are no clues that he doesnt.
5. The problem of proof proves God
What would be the proof for God? Seeing God? Most people see God's presence in their lives. Many people have even seen God, his kingdom and his angels, and have told others about it.
Therefore, if our senses are real, God exists. If our senses are not real, then nothing exists.
Proof is based on unquestionable values. However, if we accept Bible as the unquestionable value, then we prove God as Bible tells us that God exists.
There is an equal amount of proof that God exists and that you exist. You cannot prove that you exist without accepting the existence of your feelings as unquestionable. You have no reason to believe that your feelings exist. But you believe without reason. That is not any different from believing that God exists. Therefore, if you can believe that you exist and that your feelings exist, you can also believe that God exists. The strength of proof is equal for the existence of God and for the existence of your feelings.
6. Problem of widely accepted truth proves God
If we say that reasonable is that which most people agree upon, then God is reasonable. Most people believe in God.
7. The problem of atheist principles proves God
Atheist principles cannot be applied universally or in most cases.
Lets say that there is a village where only 4 people live. One person was murdered by someone. Now there are only 3 people in the village. There is no proof of who murdered a person. However, there are 2 people in the village who say that one person did it because they saw him, and they both said the same story. There are no other witnesses or any other proof. Every court will accept the story of those 2 witnesses.
Therefore, when we have the first 12 witnesses of Jesus who tell us same story, that is proof. They risked their lives following a man who promised them nothing on this Earth, who told them that some of them will get killed and some tortured.
These witnesses tell us of miracles performed by Jesus, which is why they followed him into death.
If that is not enough, we have over 1 billion Christians, who all stand as witnesses for the presence of God in their lives.
8. God's predictions coming true proves God as Jesus
Jesus made many accurate predictions about the future which prove that he was God.
Jesus said that Christianity will be spread around the entire world.
"And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come."
He said this at the time when Christianity had less than 100 followers.
Jesus also predicted that after Christianity becomes dominant, there will be the decline of Christianity in a way that almost no one will be a Christian anymore. We see today that Christianity is rapidly declining in many countries, and atheism is on the rise.
In the same way that Jesus predicted the rise of Christianity, Jesus also predicted its final and total decline, and that people will return to mass adultery, immorality and luxury.
"It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation."
"She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries."
Bible predicts cloning and surgery in Genesis 2.
"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam"
"and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof"
"And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman"
This is basically how surgeries and cloning are done. In order to clone, you need some part of the person you are cloning. However, no one could have known this 2000 years ago.
Bible also provides accurate description of what is an AI.
"saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
Now, obviously, this verse talks about an image that can speak, detect, think, and be like it has life. No one 2000 years ago could have known what is that about.
Today we know that AI mostly fits such description. AI is an "image" that speaks, detects, thinks, and acts like it has life and sentience.
Jesus predicted that government will control all trade, and that people will get chip implants.
This verse describes chip implants in humans and government control of trade:
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name".
Bible predicted that it will be discovered that Earth floats in space.
Obviously, 2000 years ago, no one knew for sure if Earth is located on top of something or just floating.
Bible made a claim over 2000 years ago that Earth floats in space:
"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing."
9. The problem of all powerful being proves God
Even if God doesnt exist, he can create himself into existence at any time.
All powerful being can create itself out of nothing.
Having all powers includes being able to create itself.
10. The problem of logic proves God
Human logic can only be one of these 3:
1) Circular
2) Based on unquestionable values
3) Based on infinite reasons
1) is a logical fallacy of circular reasoning
2) is based on no reason
3) is based on endless reasons and impossible to prove or demonstrate.
Therefore, all human logic is flawed. However, when accepting this human logic, you end up proving God.
1) God exists because God created himself.
2) God's existence is unquestionable.
3) God exists for infinite number of reasons: God1, God2, God3...
11. The problem of science proves God
Any explanation for the existence of the world given by science does not disprove God, since God can do anything, even lead scientists to wrong conclusions.
For example, scientists have no proof on how old is the universe. They can merely guess based on its assumed movement in the past. However, God can easily start movement at any point and position and make it seem like movement existed before the given position when in fact, it hasnt. God can also speed up movement, then slow it down. Therefore, guessing the age of the universe by its current movement speed and current position is incorrect, since we dont know the starting position or speed.
12. The problem of laws of the Universe proves God
What created laws of the Universe? The most logical explanation is God, since God is all powerful and he can do that.
13. Christian perfect moral law proves Christian God
Christian moral law is perfect. It is complete, simple and easy to learn moral law to the point where it only could have been created by God.
Moral law of Christianity is made up of the entire Bible, but it is wonderfully summed up in very short version which is made of "8 Commandments + Charity + Prayer" in The New Testament.
Christian moral law is easy for anyone to learn, even for a 5 year old child. Everyone accepting Christian moral law, even if only accepting some parts of it, benefits from that.
Christian morality is based upon life, on protecting the life and increasing prayer. It is really perfect for any society, because with protection of life, society prospers the most.
The quality of a moral law is not just in how good it is in theory, but if it would be accepted by people in practice.
Christian morality is the most accepted morality in the world. Even young kids easily learn 10 commandments, prayer, charity, forgiveness and love.
Christians are famous for their charities, for their opposition to abortions, for valuing marriage and family unit.
14. God is needed for justice proves that God exists
God is needed for good people to be rewarded. Without God, good people die and disappear. They suffer for the entire life, only to die and disappear. If you believe in reincarnation, then good people keep getting born again, only to suffer again and die again.
Conclusion
There is absolute, definitive proof that the God portrayed in the Bible exists. The problem of beginning proves God. The problem of existence proves God. The problem of movement proves God. The problem of clues proves God. The problem of proof proves God. Problem of widely accepted truth proves God. The problem of atheist principles proves God. God's predictions coming true proves God as Jesus. The problem of all powerful being proves God. The problem of logic proves God. The problem of science proves God. The problem of laws of the Universe proves God. Christian perfect moral law proves Christian God. God is needed for justice proves that God exists.
Round 2
Arguments
1. The problem of beginning proves God
Let's make the assumption that this argument proves the existence of God because something cannot come from nothing, ignoring the fact that God is something and therefor also cannot come from nothing nor have powers relating to the creation of itself before it exists by that same logic. This proves a God does exist under that assumption, but not the biblical God. The following is an excerpt of the description of this debate:
a generalized argument that proves the existence of God but not the biblical God specifically will not work as that argument can used to justify the existence of a non-biblical God (for instance, Allah from Islam).
This argument, if valid, proves the existence of God, but not the biblical God specifically. For instance, one could use this argument to say Allah exists. It is not absolute, definitive proof that the God portrayed in the Bible exists because it can also be used as proof that any God exists, and does not give credence to a specific one.
2. The problem of existence proves God
Much like the first argument, this does prove God exists if we make the assumption that things must exist for a reason and every existence must have had a beginning. However, it does prove the Biblical God specifically exists.
3. The problem of movement proves God
Extend the previous argument on the fact that pro must prove that the Biblical God specifically must exist and not God in general.
4. God's footsteps: The problem of clues proves God
Extend the previous argument on the fact that pro must prove that the Biblical God specifically must exist and not God in general.
5. The problem of proof proves God
Extend the previous argument on the fact that pro must prove that the Biblical God specifically must exist and not God in general.
6. Problem of widely accepted truth proves God
Why must what is reasonable be the thing that most people agree upon? For instance, in the past, most people believed that those who are LGBT had a mental disorder (proof here). Considering how in the past most people agreed on wrong things such as the idea that LGBT people have mental disorders, how can we blindly trust what most people agree on? However, let's assume for a moment that the fact that most people believing in the Biblical God is evidence for his existence. How does this prove his existence with "absolute, definitive proof"? The argument doesn't definitely proof he exists.
7. The problem of atheist principles proves God
The 12 witnesses of Jesus witnessed him in the Bible, that is where their witnessing of him was documented. However, how do we know that the Bible is accurate? For instance, suppose that I try to insist that the Harry Potter franchise is real. I can use the students of Hogwarts witnessing Voldemort's resurrection to do this. I can say that because all of those students (numbering more than 12) witnessing Voldemort's resurrection in the series that the series must therefor be true because of eye witness testimony of its events occurring. Do you see the issue? If your evidence is based in the Bible itself, but the Bible does not prove itself, than we cannot trust what the Bible says about itself. To give another example, many people view Muhammad in the Quran. Could that be used as evidence for his existence, and therefor Allah?
Regarding the 1 billion Christians, you have not shown proof that they stand as witnesses for the presence of God in their lives. We know that that many Christians (or more than that, to be more specific) believe in Christianity, but not that they can stand as witnesses that God definitively exists.
8. God's predictions coming true proves God as Jesus
Jesus made many accurate predictions about the future which prove that he was God.
Jesus said that Christianity will be spread around the entire world."And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come."He said this at the time when Christianity had less than 100 followers.
This prediction did end up being correct, but a single correct prediction (and one that isn't extremely specific) does not qualify as absolute, definitive proof. The Bible also says that the Earth was about 6000 years old (source) and not 4.5 billion years old like we know it is today (source). So, it seems more accurate that the Bible threw a few darts in the dark about various facts and landed a few predictions based off of luck.
Jesus also predicted that after Christianity becomes dominant, there will be the decline of Christianity in a way that almost no one will be a Christian anymore. We see today that Christianity is rapidly declining in many countries, and atheism is on the rise.In the same way that Jesus predicted the rise of Christianity, Jesus also predicted its final and total decline, and that people will return to mass adultery, immorality and luxury.
This is a chart of the current number of Christians along with the estimated number of Christians in the future. The number of Christians is not rapidly declining near to the point of total decline, it is actually increasing at a faster rate than new people are being born.
Bible predicts cloning and surgery in Genesis 2."And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam""and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof""And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman"This is basically how surgeries and cloning are done. In order to clone, you need some part of the person you are cloning. However, no one could have known this 2000 years ago.
If God could do everything with no limits, then he would not need a part of the person he is cloning. You must also provide evidence that a person must need a part of the person that they are cloning.
Bible also provides accurate description of what is an AI."saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."Now, obviously, this verse talks about an image that can speak, detect, think, and be like it has life. No one 2000 years ago could have known what is that about.Today we know that AI mostly fits such description. AI is an "image" that speaks, detects, thinks, and acts like it has life and sentience.
The prediction also states that those that didn't worship the image of the beast would be killed. I am struggling to imagine that that would occur with AI with governments killing those who do not worship AI's. It also describes it as a "beast", of which the image was made about a beast was wounded by a sword and lived. In what way does that resemble AI?
Jesus predicted that government will control all trade, and that people will get chip implants.This verse describes chip implants in humans and government control of trade:"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name".
Are people in the modern day getting chip implants? If so, please provide proof. Also please explain how a mark on their right hand or shoulder is supposed to be a chip being implanted instead of a tattoo or something else.
Bible predicted that it will be discovered that Earth floats in space.Obviously, 2000 years ago, no one knew for sure if Earth is located on top of something or just floating.Bible made a claim over 2000 years ago that Earth floats in space:"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing."
This was just a lucky guess by the Bible. Extend my previous argument on the Bible throwing darts in the dark and sometimes getting them right (and in many cases wrong such as the age of the Earth.
9. The problem of all powerful being proves God
Extend the previous argument on the fact that pro must prove that the Biblical God specifically must exist and not God in general.
10. The problem of logic proves God
Extend the previous argument on the fact that pro must prove that the Biblical God specifically must exist and not God in general.
11. The problem of science proves God
Extend the previous argument on the fact that pro must prove that the Biblical God specifically must exist and not God in general.
12. The problem of laws of the Universe proves God
Extend the previous argument on the fact that pro must prove that the Biblical God specifically must exist and not God in general.
13. Christian perfect moral law proves Christian God
You have not cited evidence for how Christian moral law is perfect. There are certainly many good things about Christian moral law, as you mentioned, but in what way is that "perfect" and infallible in a way that a human could not have created it.
14. God is needed for justice proves that God exists
This does prove that God is needed for justice, but fails to prove that absolute justice exists in the world and therefor God must exist to allow that justice.
Conclusion
There is no absolute, definitive proof that the God portrayed in the Bible exists in any of these arguments. There is some evidence indicating that the Biblical God exists in argument 8, but many of the predictions Jesus made were inaccurate and so the ones that were accurate can be attributed to the idea that if you make enough guesses some of them are bound to be come true, and something as shaky as a few correct predictions among many incorrect predictions cannot be seen as anything close to actual absolute, definitive proof.
Rebuttals
ignoring the fact that God is something and therefor also cannot come from nothing nor have powers relating to the creation of itself before it exists by that same logic.
God can create itself out of nothing. God is all powerful. God had powers before God came into existence. Being all powerful includes having all powers when existing and when not existing. If all-powers didnt exist, all-powers could create themselves out of nothing and be granted to God or create God.
Why must what is reasonable be the thing that most people agree upon?
Historically, what most people agree upon is usually seen as reasonable and normal.
Considering how in the past most people agreed on wrong things such as the idea that LGBT people have mental disorders, how can we blindly trust what most people agree on?
The evidence for Christian God includes many things which, when combined, prove Christian God.
We shouldnt blindly trust the majority. However, it is one of many pieces of evidence for God, which when combined turns into proof for God.
The 12 witnesses of Jesus witnessed him in the Bible, that is where their witnessing of him was documented. However, how do we know that the Bible is accurate?
Just one more piece which proves God. The 12 witnesses followed Jesus when he promised them nothing on this Earth, unlike Mohammed. People all over the world today witness presence of God in their lives and witness the healing power of faith. Many had near death experiences where they witnessed Jesus and angels.
This prediction did end up being correct, but a single correct prediction (and one that isn't extremely specific) does not qualify as absolute, definitive proof. The Bible also says that the Earth was about 6000 years old (source) and not 4.5 billion years old like we know it is today (source). So, it seems more accurate that the Bible threw a few darts in the dark about various facts and landed a few predictions based off of luck.
Bible's predictions are accurate. They are not lucky guesses.
Even if Bible did say that Earth is 6000 years old, we wouldnt be able to prove that wrong as we dont have a reliable way to meassure the age of the Earth. The best that we have is an assumption that Earth existed before certain point of movement.
However, we can clearly see that Earth floats in space and that Christianity has spread throughout the entire world and that Christianity is starting to decline. We also learned of cloning, surgeries and AI were all mentioned in the Bible.
This is a chart of the current number of Christians along with the estimated number of Christians in the future. The number of Christians is not rapidly declining near to the point of total decline, it is actually increasing at a faster rate than new people are being born.
Bible's predictions about the decline of Christianity are true. Atheism is on the rise. In USA, there were only 8% of atheists in 1990. Now there is 26% of them. Atheism and Islam grow much faster than Christianity. Therefore, Christianity obviously declined compared to these other religions, after it was superior to them for so long. Those religions will overtake Christianity. In many countries, such as Sweden and USA, the percentage of Christians is dropping. The percentage of Christians in the world has not increased much, while percentage of atheists and muslims increases rapidly. Islam was already predicted to overtake Christianity.
If God could do everything with no limits, then he would not need a part of the person he is cloning. You must also provide evidence that a person must need a part of the person that they are cloning.
God would not need a part, of course. However, if he didnt use the part, then Bible wouldnt describe cloning as it is done today.
In order to clone, you need a part of a person or an animal you are cloning. If you didnt have that part, you wouldnt know what to clone, for a start.
The prediction also states that those that didn't worship the image of the beast would be killed. I am struggling to imagine that that would occur with AI with governments killing those who do not worship AI's.
But thats exactly what will occur. Humans will be expected to abandon their opinions in favor of whatever AI suggests. AI is already smarter than most humans. AI will obviously develop to the point where it will be smarter than any human.
It also describes it as a "beast", of which the image was made about a beast was wounded by a sword and lived. In what way does that resemble AI?
AI is the image of the beast, not the beast itself. Who AI will present as hero and a victim could be the actual beast.
Are people in the modern day getting chip implants? If so, please provide proof. Also please explain how a mark on their right hand or shoulder is supposed to be a chip being implanted instead of a tattoo or something else.
The mark is used to buy and sell things. So it is likely a chip and not a tattoo. Besides, it says "will get mark in their right hand" not "on their right hand". People already started getting chip implants. So it is likely the future.
This was just a lucky guess by the Bible. Extend my previous argument on the Bible throwing darts in the dark and sometimes getting them right (and in many cases wrong such as the age of the Earth.
Many cases does not equal to "one case". Your one case, built upon the age of the Earth, is a rather pointless case. Science doesnt have a way of meassuring age of the Earth when it doesnt know the starting point of Earth.
You have not cited evidence for how Christian moral law is perfect. There are certainly many good things about Christian moral law, as you mentioned, but in what way is that "perfect" and infallible in a way that a human could not have created it.
The law is simple, effective and never-changing. It is nonsense to say that people 2000 years ago were smarter than people today. People today have much more education. We see that people today have many problems when trying to create laws. They struggle a lot. Some laws have multiple pages. Many have to be changed all the time.
Christian law is so perfect that it never had to be changed. It is so simple that a 5 year old can learn it. It is perfect moral law. No person was ever able to come up with better moral law.
Fun debate.
Round 3
Forfeited
Extend
Round 4
Forfeited
Extend
Round 5
Forfeited
The end.