Instigator / Pro
0
1500
rating
1
debates
0.0%
won
Topic
#4774

abortion is NOT a sin

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Winner
0
3

After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Mall
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Winner selection
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
3
1492
rating
333
debates
40.69%
won
Description

No information

Round 1
Pro
#1
Forfeited
Con
#2
Let's go to the book of Exodus chapter 19 and we'll start at verse 20.

"The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up. 21 and the Lord said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the Lord and many of them perish. 22Even the priests, who approach the Lord, must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.”

So there's this matter of holiness. That's what consecration is dealing with. We're going to see what the passage has to say regarding the Lord telling Moses what to tell the people.

Now in verse 23  " Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’ ”

24The Lord replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the Lord, or he will break out against them.”

25So Moses went down to the people and told them.

The context so far is that which is holy and God is giving to Moses what to give to the people. We're going to see as we read on what it takes to be in the presence of God the right way. If the people aren't right, the breaking of the Lord so shall it be.

Exodus the 20th chapter and at verse one:
"And God spoke all these words:

Verse 2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

So as the words from God we read and we continue on and we'll drop down to verse 13:

“You shall not murder."

Now to those in the comments or anybody thinking murder is not a sin, don't lean unto your own understanding as his thoughts are not your thoughts.
The next few verses will summarize everything thus far.

18 "When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance"

The people stayed cautious or rather trembled given the explanation about coming up to the Lord and what will happen .

Again verse 18 "When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance"
19"and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”
20" Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”
21"The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was."

All in summary for a holy place, you have to be consecrated and God delivered to Moses what to deliver to the people to keep from sinning which one of them would be MURDER.

Now let's get into what justifies killing a person versus not. We have to go by the scripture for that as well, not the law of the land from man.

Continuing in Exodus, this time chapter 21.

See without question all this will be opened up. Scriptures say " My words are plain to anyone with understanding, clear to those with knowledge ".

Verse 12 "Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. 13 However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate."

Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, let's get another out of Numbers.

From the book of Numbers chapter 35
16"If anyone strikes someone a fatal blow with an iron object, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death. 17 Or if anyone is holding a stone and strikes someone a fatal blow with it, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death. 18 Or if anyone is holding a wooden object and strikes someone a fatal blow with it, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death."

Murder is sin. As the book says the wages of sin is death.

We get the idea verse after verse in this passage.
Drop down to verse 30 “‘Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. "

Anyone who kills a PERSON. Now is what is terminated in the womb a person?

If you wish to argue it's not a person, I have some scripture to sharpen your perspective. Scriptures say consider the things I say.

Now murder would not be justified. The opposing side cannot oppose but agree or they can indicate that they do disagree .

Murder would not be justified. To commit murder would not " keep you from sinning" as Moses said.

Now in the book of Galatians chapter 2 and we can go to let's say about verse 17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker."

There is no sin in Christ. You are justified in him who knew no sin as the scripture says. You do exactly as what the works of Christ did, count yourself justified.

If the opposing side evidently does not follow any of this , we can open it up .

In short, the life of a person that is fatally taken away premeditated, intentionally is murder by one who is a murderer. The same life of that same person that would be alive is done the same in the womb as it's taken away premeditated, intentionally would be MURDER which is a sin.

As mentioned, I can go further into that as far as what's in the womb counting as the same.

We missed a round from the opposing side. That's alright. Like the scripture says " tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem", I shall tarry and wait on them.












Round 2
Pro
#3
Forfeited
Con
#4
I will elaborate furthermore about that which is holy and sin that contrasts one another, one casting out the other.

In Exodus we read about what was given to the people and it had to be given in the way that it did because of the matter of what is holy and it appears a separation, boundary limits , a distance was there because of the issue of death and sinning.

In Romans 7 verse 7 " What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” "

The law gives the knowledge of what keeps you  from sinning. Basically what God gave to Moses to give to the people. No sin in the law.

12" So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

No sin in the law = to holy. Just as what God said about Mount Sinai.

13" Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful"

The law or the commandment is what is in place to make recognition of sin, distinguishing what is holy as death is in the mix like so back in Exodus.

When talking about sin, death is always in the mix. Even else where in the scripture in talking about the womb, what the woman does to defileth herself brings about death. 

Death is the wages paid of the penalty. Not an allowable justification like a doing of a pure good deed but a punishment for a wrongdoing.





Round 3
Pro
#5
Forfeited
Con
#6
I want to thank the individual that provided this opportunity for me to really send a message. There was no debate here.

I'll finish off regarding the question I posed.

"Now is what is terminated in the womb a person?"

According to who or what? That's the crucial part. 

Being that we're talking about sin and that's a scripture based subject, what counts as sin is what  I brought up that has to do with persons. So what does a person have to do with abortion? Is it a false equivalency? Is what is in the womb a person in order to classify a person to person act?

Let's see how it appears to Lord God being that it's in reference to scripture.

Jeremiah 1 and 5

 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
    before you were born I set you apart;
    I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

If we all would look at it this way like knowing the end from the beginning, this person already exists in our minds. No matter how small they started out, it doesn't make them any less significant. The world will have a trumped up excuse of that to justify abortion. But because of what is in the womb that is already destined to amount to something like for instance in this verse, murdering an active prophet is the same as aborting a budding one.

Isaiah 49:15
"Can a woman forget her nursing child,
that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget,
yet I will not forget you."

An excellent and appropriate verse for women with children.

Job 31:15
"Did not he who made me in the womb make him?
And did not one fashion us in the womb"

Psalm 22:10
"Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother’s womb you have been my God."

Thus far we don't see the scriptures drawing a line. The secular interpretation makes a line by legal discretion. In Jeremiah 1 it stated before formed in the womb. No matter how little the start. A newborn is not less significant than a toddler or baby. Five minutes before birth or a month before birth doesn't change the significance. So where does it change? According to secular measure you'll find out. 

It has no line in scripture because in the knowledge of the LORD which is eternal, He always knew you as you were or is or will be see.

Psalm 127:3-5
"Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD,
the fruit of the womb a reward."

Not the fruit of a born child. See you can't have one without the other. It's an equivalent. There is no lesser significance, it's just as vital.

Psalm 139:13-16
"For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them."

Really wonderful testimony. This puts me in remembrance of attempted abortion survivors who have spoken out about their stories who do live with the effects of attempted murder technically in legal terms a medical procedure. 
Anyone living today that is happy with their life and glad to be alive can't support abortion. They would be in complete contradiction to themselves.

Ecclesiastes 11:5
"As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything."

You can call a person a person at whatever point you decide to allot human value. You do not know the work of God who has made that value, makes everything, every part of that fetus, zygote, gamete , made every cell .

So what does the secular approach come in and do to change that ?

Well we read all about that in Romans 1 but perhaps a message for another time.

Again a thanks to all and peace be.