Instigator / Pro
8
1500
rating
1
debates
0.0%
won
Topic
#4949

Birth produces sufferring is temporal

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
1

After 2 votes and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...

ToLearn
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
13
1500
rating
4
debates
50.0%
won
Description

P1: For any experience to be reframed, it must first exist.

S1: This means that suffering, or any emotion, must be present to be transformed or understood differently.
P2: Birth leads to a myriad of experiences.

S2: Birth can result in happiness, wonder, pain, joy, sadness, and every other conceivable human emotion and experience.
C1: Birth produces the potential for all human experiences, both positive and negative.

P3: Some perspectives assert that "birth produces suffering" as a primary outcome.

S3: This can be seen as a fatalistic or deterministic perspective.
P4: The human experience is diverse and multifaceted.

C1: Birth produces the potential for all human experiences.
C2: Asserting only that "birth produces suffering" is a reductive interpretation of the human experience.

P5: Challenges and hardships can lead to personal growth and deeper appreciation.

S4: Suffering, among other experiences, can be a catalyst for growth and understanding.
C6: Birth, by introducing the potential for challenges and joys alike, offers avenues for growth and understanding.

P7: Genetic breakthroughs have the potential to end suffering, such as curing aging and making humans impervious to harmful lifeforms.

S5: With these advancements, the inherent suffering tied to aging and disease could be eliminated.
P8: If suffering can be ended through scientific advancements, then its association with birth is temporal.

S6: The argument that "birth produces suffering" would only be valid in a pre-breakthrough context.
C7: In a post-genetic breakthrough world, "birth produces the end of suffering" could be a valid assertion.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Forfeited
Con
#2

First of all I like to thank my instigator for their arguments. And give thanks to the readers. And that I'm honored and humbled by this invitation for a debate.

I believe your topic is, suffering produced by birth is temporal and the definition of temporal is "of or relating to earthly life" as defined here.

And if so, I believe you consider an afterlife. But I need to disclose that I don't have an ounce of religious background, especially regarding afterlife aspects. But I have some thoughts on how to refute your conclusions without actually asking for the burden of proof on the afterlife.

But I need to ask whether everyone goes to a single place like heaven or will they be separated as hell or heaven kind of situation. And if so is it permanent like ones who go to hell will never go back to heaven?



P1: I will put the burden of proof on pro to disprove this source, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suffering ("For any … it must first exist.").

P2: Is suffering actually required to understand happiness, wonder, and joy? ("This means that … differently.").

P3: I agree (Birth leads to … positive and negative.").

P4: I will put the burden of proof on pro to prove any other way to suffer without existing in the first place ("Some perspectives … a primary outcome.").

P5: Not sure what fatalistic or deterministic means but if someone is hit by an arrow will they treat it or just carry it around? As such I'm saying to end all suffering, and have a joyful life ("This can be … deterministic perspective.").

P6: I agree ("The human experience … human experiences.").

P7: Refuting for the same reason as P4 ("Asserting only that … human experience.").

P8: I agree ("Challenges and … growth and understanding.").

P9: I would like to ask pro whether they agree with these (Prevented means completely),
1. Can diseases or problems arising at birth be prevented?
2. Can existential crisis be prevented?
3. Can all sicknesses, illnesses and diseases be prevented?
4. Can aging be prevented?
5. Can death be prevented?
6. Can sadness, pain, misery, sorrows be prevented?
7. Can hardships like school, universities, jobs, etc be prevented?
8. Can anyone get anything they want in life like mansions, any meals, any medicines?
9. Can dislike, disassociation, lies, deception, hurtful words, hate, etc from others be prevented?
10. Can the inability to get people we love, like, appreciate in our lives (I'm talking about forced marriage or loss of relationships) be prevented?
11. Can change of physical and mental change of those we love be prevented? (When marrying everyone is happy but after living some time divorce happens due to the change of the mind).
("Genetic breakthroughs have … could be a valid assertion.").

C1: I hope I have successfully counter argued your arguments.

Not for the sake of argument
As a person trying to find answers, especially regarding suffering, I don't say anything about fatalism and determinism.

Actually I'm logically convinced they're wrong views in the first place. Personally I think I found a way to end suffering. In this life and very quickly. However I am still experimenting but I'm somewhat successful.


I thank my instigator's time and effort. And looking forward to the next argument.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Forfeited
Con
#4
First of all I would like to thank my interlocutor for their arguments. And give thanks to the readers.


I would like to say that Pro is arguing from a different and interesting perspective. Which I think everyone and I can learn a lot from. However to do that any viewers and I must see the argument. Therefore I request active participation in this debate. Which I think all would appreciate.

Even if Pro doesn't participate I would like to prove a claim I made in the previous round. Which is "fatalism and determinism … [are] wrong views". Which I believe I owe my argument and will help in a future debate also.


P10: If a person having the worst job quits doesn't it end suffering caused by it? Also goes for a toxic relationship, once it ends it no more brings suffering, only happiness of ending it. Therefore suffering could be ended.

P11: Fatalism is "a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them" (S1).

P12: In P10 I display that suffering could be ended. So how're we powerless? Therefore this view drops.

P13: Determinism is "... psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws" (S2).

P14: If a person can learn how to end suffering, it's their choice whether to continue suffering or not. Since ordinary people pursue greatest joy they automatically choose this option (S3 -> "all men … are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, … the pursuit of Happiness.").

P15: Also if not above, why would a person think whether the universe is fatalistic or deterministic if they ended suffering and achieved greatest joy? Why do they care?

C10: I hope I was able to prove that fatalism and determinism are wrong views.


I really hope Pro can join this interesting debate.

I thank my interlocutor's time and effort. And looking forward to the next argument.

Round 3
Pro
#5
Forfeited
Con
#6
First of all I would like to thank my interlocutor for their arguments. And give thanks to the readers.

C11: All counter arguments still stand. I really wish my friend can counter at least one premise (“FORFEITED”).

I thank my interlocutor's time and effort. And looking forward to the next argument.

Round 4
Pro
#7
Forfeited
Con
#8
First of all I would like to thank my friend for their arguments. And give thanks to everyone.

C11: All counter arguments still stand. I really wish my friend can counter at least one premise (“FORFEITED”).

I thank my friend's time and effort. And looking forward to the next argument.
Round 5
Pro
#9
Forfeited
Con
#10
Forfeited