Instigator / Pro
0
1493
rating
23
debates
60.87%
won
Topic
#5113

There are only two genders

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
0
Better sources
0
0
Better legibility
0
0
Better conduct
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0

After not so many votes...

It's a tie!
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
20,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
0
1492
rating
13
debates
46.15%
won
Description

Pro: only two genders
Con: can argue against pro or for multiple genders
B.o.p.: open (can be shared or on pro)
Format open as long as everyone can read it. Seperate quotes from your own words/argument.

Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is educational: for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, that is good.

I read up on this topic and found a given argument that I will lend from; aimed at criticising the given argument.

Round 1
Pro
#1
 Hey thanks for taking up this debate. 
 

My Round 1 content
Intro stuff
A definitions
B references

Point 1 everything derives from masculinity and feminity 

Point 2  Other categorical derivatives  are mis-categorized

Point 3 Some characteristics and a binary gender system are mislabeled. 

Intro stuff 
definitions 
Characteristic

Derive

Gender

Gender Identity.

Gender continuum. 

References 

i.)

ii)) 


 1. Everything derives from masculinity and femininity

As we navigate the many characteristics that may exist within  genders, we can recognize that the characteristics given are observable in binary gender identity/system. We can also recognize that these characteristics derive from concepts on feminity and masculinity. 

Feminity and masculinity possess characteristics observable to the human race. This means all characteristics are observable and accredited to us...humans. ex:  personification describes human like behavior in other animals - we are relating an animal's action to our emotional experience. 

no person may be 100% absent from these characteristics. Even those who do not express or incapable of understanding emotion pertain some characteristics that pertain to masculinity or feminity. 

Reference iii))) provides an illustration on how characteristics are correctly portrayed under the binary gender system: where characteristics are distinctive or shared. 

I promote the idea that a greater percentage of characteristics are shared. Ex: 80% shared, 20% not shared. 



 2. Other categorical derivatives  are mis-categorized
 
2A 
If we explore the article from:

...we are given a scientific explanation for gender spectrum. The article explains that our sex is a spectrum and therefore our gender occurs in a spectrum. 

However there are several points given that misrepresent characteristics that occur in both sex and gender.  

Ex: the above article says there is a spectrum in describing sex because we have different sizes in genitalia. 
  • Full-size penis
  • Small penis
  • Micro-penis
  • Clitoromegaly, also called a “Pseudopenis”
  • Enlarged clitoris
  • Standard-sized clitoris. 
  • These are observable in and categorized in a binary system. 

    No one should be assigned or identify as less of a man or woman because of physical appearance. Nor should we think of ourselves in a way. 

    There are many characteristics used for genter spectrum that are not distinguishing a proposed gender just as our genital's appearance does not distinguish us as opposite to what we are.   


    3. Binary system is often misrepresented. 

    Taken from link in point 2:

    As explained by these examples, sex is not binary, because people cannot be grouped into two separate, non-overlapping groups.

    .....the gender binary—also called gender binarism or genderism—is a belief that gender is composed of two distinct and opposite genders (women/men) in which there is not overlap. 

    There is overlap and that is the common argument given for a binary gender system. 

    There are also characteristics we experience that represent personality types or other aspects about us that do not determine or express gender. 

    Ex a:  we may hear that a baby boy likes to explore and climb. Some respond by saying, " oh well that's because he is a boy. Boys will be boys after all." 

    Except the desire to climb and have fun is not gender related. 

    Ex b: Girls like pink. They all do. Pink is a girl's color. No boy would wear pink.

    Except color is not gender specific. 

    These opinions do not set the basis on characteristics observable in gender identity or a binary gender system. 

    Although there are distinct features and characteristics between man and woman, the difference may be as small as 1%.  
    This is similar to the 1% difference humans have to chimpanzees.  


    In conclusion 
    We observe a binary gender system in humans because:
    1. Everything derives from masculinity and femininity.
    2 Other categorical derivatives are mis-categorized 


    Con
    #2
    My position is that there is no such thing as gender, only biological expression with variation, and personal expression with variation. Gender is simply a social construct that provides stereotypes.


    1. Masculinity and femininity are social, arbitrary constructs that only have the power that is given to them.

    Biological sex is irrefutable, and typically people fall within the standard of "male" or "female", meaning their chromosomal and phenotypical expression align with the expectation. But all do not fit so neatly within these confines, and there is massive variation even within the confines. 
    Male and female are only useful distinctions for those that fall within their expectations, and all humans do not neatly fit in either box.

    Masculinity and feminity do not have set meanings, they are interpreted subjectively within their respective cultures. Gender is a stereotype, and some feel pressured to confirm to the stereotype set for them. This societal pressure to conform and the subsequent conformation of individuals does not inherently affirm that gender exists outside of its social expectations.

    Please, define what masculine and feminine are, without resorting to phenotypical or chromosomal expression, because that already has a term "biological sex," and biological sex does not fit within a binary, it's a scale of expressions where those in the middle are arbitrarily assigned to either male or female, or are called intersex.

    2. It seems you agree with me that sex has many different expressions, and that many of the new genders posit a gender that is not wholly distinguished. I see that the already established genders do not posit a distinguished gender. Characteristics that are often thought of as feminine can be attributes of someone that is biologically not considered female, and vice versa.

    3. You seem to agree that personal interests do not define gender. You also seem to agree that there is very little difference in what we call male and female. The fact that there are many cultural differences in what masculinity and femininity entail, and the fact that the difference between what we call a man and a woman is minimal, these facts imply that a binary system works for neither biological sex or gender. 

    In the case of biological sex, physical distinctions can be made for a more inclusive system.

    In the case of gender, there are two options. One: increase the amounts of genders, creating more and more arbitrary distinctions and borders. Two: realize that the concept of gender is simply a subjective construct that differs between cultures, and thus is a fruitless construct. 

    ______________________________________

    A. Gender does nothing useful for society, it simply prescribes social expectations that are not universal. 

    B. Gender is often misconstrued as synonymous to sex, and that is not the case, gender is a societal construct.

    Gender is also often misconstrued as individualism, i.e; preferences and hobbies. 

    Both views of gender add nothing that can't be described with either biological sex or personality, and therefore gender is useless.
    Round 2
    Pro
    #3
    Thanks again for taking this debate. 

    0.   Con's position
    We need to  clarify your position
    My position is that there is no such thing as gender, only biological expression with variation, and personal expression with variation. Gender is simply a social construct that provides stereotypes.

    Sounds like you are saying that there are not 2 distinct genders because gender(s) [what ever it may be] does not exist. Correct me if above is not your position. 

    Social constructs(link1) like land ownership, race, and adolescence(link2) still exist. They are intricate and involved with daily living. Some bad. Some good. Some neutral. 

    How can we take the position that gender does not exist or "there is no such thing?"

    We can identify gender in the same way we identify sex in biology or characteristics in personalities. 

    ...


    The word gender is historically used as an identifier. 
    The grammatical sense is attested in English from late 14c. Jespersen ("Philosophy of Grammar," 1924) defines grammatical gender by reference to the Indo-European distinction of masculine, feminine, neuter, "whether the division be based on the natural division into two sexes, or on that between animate and inanimate, or on something else."

    The "male-or-female sex" sense of the word is attested in English from early 15c. As sex (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous...."
    We see in above quote that the term gender is used as an identifier synonymous with the noun "sex". 

    How are we to navigate this dilemma, where something that exists (male or female gender) is said to not exist? 

    1. For all comments in section 1, we see an argument for consequences for something that exists. However, we can see that your (con's) point 1 does not prevent us from identifying two genders based on feminity and masculinity. 

    As we navigate the many characteristics that may exist within  genders, we can recognize that the characteristics given are observable in binary gender identity/system. We can also recognize that these characteristics derive from concepts on feminity and masculinity. 

    why should we neglect grammatical identifiers that reflect on our reality?

    Biological sex exists. Great. Masculine & feminine characteristics are  biological characteristics that we can see exist in humans - same as any animal we describe/identify in biology. A peacock's masculinity is defined with its feathers. Lions have definitive characteristics between male and female sexes. Penguins we can see male birds incubate the eggs while female birds do so in other species.  Humans have the indulgence to identify our own characteristics because of our intelligence. 

    We can identify our personality traits. A finite and definitive number. We can recognize and categorize our characteristics according to biological sex and gender. 

    B)

    Male and female are only useful distinctions for those that fall within their expectations, and all humans do not neatly fit in either box.
     
    This also suggests a thing that is said to not exist, does exist. 
    Can you give example?
    Although I get the figure of speech, lets overlap those boxes. Then change them into circles. 
    A person does not have to fit perfectly any where. We have a list of characteristics that are observable in humans. We all look at our sex and gender based on those characteristics. 

    Even if we change ours. 

    C) 
    Masculinity and feminity do not have set meanings, they are interpreted subjectively within their respective cultures. 

    How our culture reacts to something like gender or masculinity or race is a response that can change. A response that is subjective to an objective thing. We can change how we respond. 

    We can hear in your description the errors in our response. From prejudice to racism, our responses do not exist within the characteristics themselves. 

    On the contrary, they exist outside each other. Which means we don't have to get rid of identifiers to subtract the negative aspects from our society.  

    Ex: people might hate me for my skin or how I look, but that is their response to looking at me. I dont have to change me to get rid of their hate. They need to change their response. 

    Please, define what masculine and feminine are, without resorting to phenotypical or chromosomal expression, because that already has a term "biological sex.


    I provide current and historic definitions.  masculine and feminine are based on male and female. Therefore it is impossible to exclude what you call expressions observable  in biological sex. 

    Expression is a verb, something we do. (Biological) Sex is used as a noun, as is gender.  We should point that out because what you call expressions are characteristics identified to belong to male or female sexes. Characteristics identified/described as masculine or feminine. 


    2. It seems you agree with me that sex has many different expressions, and that many of the new genders posit a gender that is not wholly distinguished. I see that the already established genders do not posit a distinguished gender.

    Perchance, you may correct where there is error?   Your "many different expressions..." sounds the same as there are many different genders or "sex, which refers to one’s biological characteristics, also exists as a spectrum." 

    Which my position in this debate would inherently disagree with. 

    2B. 
    Characteristics that are often thought of as feminine can be attributes of someone that is biologically not considered female, and vice versa. 

    Some characteristics can be shared between two genders because these characteristics are human in nature (i e. Introvert vs. Extrovert) 

     We can learn to possess feminine/masculine characteristics if we did not before. Like changing our voice, the way we walk, the way we stand, physical appearance, practices, etc. 

    Ex: there are youtube channels, instagrams, and more with how to content, like Alpha M. 

    These content creators/influencers make it their living so people can learn varied characteristics observed in masculinity and feminity. 

    Regardless to what changes might mean, the changes are still a depiction of feminity and masculinity.  


    3.

     You seem to agree that personal interests do not define gender. You also seem to agree that there is very little difference in what we call male and female. 
    There is little but distinct differences between male and female - the same way there is little but distinct difference between chimpanzees and humans. 

    That distinct difference is more important than quantity because it creates the difference

    The fact that there are many cultural differences in what masculinity and femininity entail 
    I agree, we have different opinions on what these things should entail - to impose. 
     This is how we respond to the world around us. 

    Just like race, We can choose how to respond. 

    Ex: women are better cooks or only men work on cars. 
    Feminity is submissive while masculinity displays dominance.  

    The objectivity in observation does not diminish with the presence of opinion. 

    Regardless to how we respond to our own characteristics, we need to remember there are distinct differences that exist. 

    Which is why we see animals identified as male or female. Undefined or unknown sexes express more common characteristics than distinct, making identification harder. 

    This does not mean they are absent from their male or female characteristics. In humans we would say these characteristics are feminine or masculine. Which then points to gender. 


    In the case of gender, there are two options. One: increase the amounts of genders, creating more and more arbitrary distinctions and borders. Two: realize that the concept of gender is simply a subjective construct that differs between cultures, and thus is a fruitless construct. 

    A false conundrum. We dont have to be forced into choosing 1 of 2 options. I presented another option in round 1. 

    2 genders because everyone bases their observation/expression/identity on feminity and masculinity. Two observable set of characteristics. 




    -------line I accidently deleted ----------------

    A. 
    Gender does nothing useful for society, it simply prescribes social expectations that are not universal

    As described above, expectations on gender are opinions. There are great medical differences between men and women. There are mental differences. Identifying as woman or man only does not disturb these services while eliminating this identification does. 

    Ex: 


    Post partum depression is the most obvious example for mental health risks unique to women. However, there are also different ways women approach universal issues like depression or eating disorders. These things also affect us differently.  

    B. 

    Gender is often misconstrued as synonymous to sex, and that is not the case, gender is a societal construct.

    Historically this is accurate approach to the use gender. As described in an above link. I quoted it too. 

    People are not misconstruing a social construct they grew up with. That's exactly how the word was used has been used since 14th century. 

    We also see multiple cases in english language where two different words have the same meaning. 



    Con
    #4
    Quite honestly, I'll write more extensively on gender, and I've decided not to divulge any more time to this specific debate. If you'd like to read what I write in the future, just say so and I'll provide a link to the finished product once it's complete. This debate has become tiresome, and I'd rather state my observations elsewhere instead. No hard feelings mate.
    Round 3
    Pro
    #5
    Uh... Yeah shure. Thanks.  Bye. Happy new year
    Con
    #6
    Happy New Year