Instigator / Pro
5
1497
rating
4
debates
75.0%
won
Topic
#6364
No reason to be proud of your ethnicity
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
3
Better sources
0
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...
Novice_II
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 5,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
7
1905
rating
103
debates
93.69%
won
Description
Pro- there is no reason to be proud of your ethnicity.
Con- Yes there is.
Definition of Ethnicity in english - The quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent.
Round 1
Pro
#1
I'm gonna start simple.
Good afternoon good sir!
Good afternoon good sir!
There is no rational basis for feeling pride in one’s ethnicity.
Because ethnicity is an accident of birth, not an achievement.
Pride properly belongs to personal or collective accomplishments - things we choose and work for.
Ethnicity, by contrast, is inherited, and to attach achievement to it is not logical.
Therefore, pride in ethnicity is neither earned nor constructive.
Thank you!
Ps: Just like the prince says-"I am proud to have inherited 64 gazillion dollars from my king father"
Con
#2
Overview
- As a matter of clarity, this debate is not about whether people should be proud of their ethnicity; rather, it concerns whether there is a reason for one to be proud of their ethnicity.
- There may be reasons to be proud of it, and reasons not to be. But so long as there exist reason(s) to be proud of one’s ethnicity, the resolution is false.
My Case
- The definition of proud (adjective) is: "feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated."
- Here are several reasons to be proud of your ethnicity:
1. Pride as Resistance to Discrimination
- If others hate or discriminate against you because of a trait you did not choose—such as your ethnicity—then that very hostility can give you a reason to affirm and take pride in that trait. To be proud of one’s ethnicity in such a context is not pride in the trait as an accomplishment, but pride as dignified resistance: an assertion of self-worth in the face of unwarranted shame. In this sense, pride becomes a way of reclaiming value, not boasting superiority.
2. Pride in Cultural Inheritance
- You can justifiably feel proud to be part of a group with a rich and valuable cultural history—a tradition of music, language, philosophy, rituals, or communal values. If your membership in that group is the basis of your connection to this heritage, then you have a legitimate reason to be proud of that membership. Ethnic pride, in this case, is not based on personal achievement but on identification with and appreciation of a meaningful legacy.
- Now, Pro must take on the highly implausible task of showing that these two arguments fail to constitute even a single reason to be proud of one’s ethnicity.
Rebuttals
- Pro’s argument, and its flaws, are straightforward. To quote their position:
“Pride properly belongs to personal or collective accomplishments — things we choose and work for. Ethnicity, by contrast, is inherited, and to attach achievement to it is not logical. Therefore, pride in ethnicity is neither earned nor constructive.”
- Let’s formalize the argument as follows:
[1] If something is not a personal or collective accomplishment (namely, something we minimally choose and work for), then there is no reason to be proud of it.
[2] Ethnicity is not a personal or collective accomplishment.
[3] Therefore, there is no reason to be proud of one's ethnicity.
- However, premise [1] is clearly false. Consider the following counterexample:
[MOTHERLY INSTINCT] A woman sees an abandoned child and is psychologically compelled to care for it. She did not choose to have this instinct, nor did she work to acquire it; she simply has a naturally ingrained disposition to care for others, especially the vulnerable. She is proud of being someone with this instinct because it allows her to help others. Yet she did not choose it or earn it — she simply has it.
- Clearly, in [MOTHERLY INSTINCT], the woman is not making a rational mistake. She is justifiably proud of a morally virtuous trait, even though it is unchosen. Hence, it is possible to be proud of things one neither chose nor worked for — and Pro’s argument is unsound.
Conclusion
- I have shown that Pro’s argument for the resolution fails, and have presented multiple independent arguments that there are reasons to be proud of one’s ethnicity.
- Therefore, to affirm the resolution, Pro must not only refute all of my arguments, but also overcome the clear failure of their own.
Round 2
Pro
#3
As a matter of clarity, this debate isnot about whether people should be proud of theirethnicity; rather, it concerns whether there is a reason for one to be proud of theirethnicity.
I cannot help but be grateful for having such a bright opponent who reminds me of what the topic says as if I did not write it myself.
If others hate or discriminate againstyou because of a trait you did not choose—such as your ethnicity—then that veryhostility can give you a reason to affirm and take pride in that trait...
Although we can consider dignified resistance as an achievement,this achievement is individual.
One has reason be proud for his own resilience and dignity, but not for his ethnicity. Since it is him/her, personally, who stood against discrimination.
So that can be translated to: ‘I am proud of being so resilient to discrimination.’
This case does not make a reason for ethnic pride.
"...Ethnic pride, in this case,is not based on personal achievement but on identification with andappreciation of a meaningful legacy".
This pride you say, "is based on identification and appreciation of a meaningful legacy".
You yourself define pride as feeling satisfaction to achievements, qualities, or possessions.
Where do you find the achievement or quality or possession to being born (unwillingly due to pure chance) in a certain community?
Identifying with a certain ethnicity expresses a fact. A Biological one.
That does not become a reason to take pride from.
Appreciation of a meaningful legacy, is not pride.I appreciate the legacy of a great nation. There is no reason to express pride for it.
Although I have heard people say that they are proud of lebron's legacy, that does not mean they have any reason to be so.
Now, Pro must take on the highly implausible task ofshowing that these two arguments fail to constitute even a singlereason to be proud of one’s ethnicity.
The task is indeed unpleasant.
But it just happens to be very simple.
You do not present any reason at all in those two arguments which make up for ethnic pride.
In the first, you present a case about one’s personal achievement and try to imply that someone who personally achieves something has a reason to be proud for his ethnicity rather than for himself.
In the second argument you present a case of one’s appreciation for legacy. Which does not in any way treat the case of ethnic pride or even pride at all.
However, premise [1] is clearly false. Consider thefollowing counterexample:[MOTHERLY INSTINCT] A woman sees an abandoned child and ispsychologically compelled to care for it. She did not choose to have thisinstinct, nor did she work to acquire it; she simply has a naturally ingraineddisposition to care for others, especially the vulnerable. She is proud ofbeing someone with this instinct because it allows her to help others. Yet shedid not choose it or earn it — she simply has it.
In a topic about ethnic pride, you bring up something totally different.
Which is empathy.
Although I can argue that there is no reason to be proud for being empathetic, I will leave that to a future debate with a more capable opponent.
The pride one could derive from his empathy could only be justified if his empathy caused him to do a good act. Pride of having achieved the action of a good deed.
That is also called pride in one’s personal achievements and not ethnicity.
Hence, it is possible to be proud ofthings one neither chose nor worked for — and Pro’s argument is unsound.
After having reminded the topic to me,you yourself mistake it.
The topic is whether there is any reason to be proud of ethnicity and not whether it is possible.
I have shown that Pro’s argument forthe resolution fails, and have presented multiple independent arguments thatthere are reasons to be proud of one’s ethnicity.Therefore, to affirm the resolution,Pro must not only refute all of my arguments, but also overcome the clearfailure of their own.
I am very sorry but you have not shown anything.
I have yet to read an argument from you where you demonstrate a reason to be proud of your ethnicity (like the title says), and not personal achievements.
To affirm the resolution I did refute all your non-plausible arguments.
I would recommend that you stick to ethnic pride rather than drifting towards personal pride and other feelings such as empathy.
My first argument was pretty concise and presented the case clearly.
Therefore, I add again:Pride, as my beloved opponent stated,is a feeling of satisfaction due to achievements, quality, possessions.
Ethnicity is not an achievement, it is not a quality, it is not a possession. It is merely a biological fact about a person.
Therefore, by definition, there is no reason at all to be proud of it.
Con
#4
Overview
- Once again, as a matter of clarity, this debate is not about whether people should be proud of their ethnicity; rather, it concerns whether there is a reason for one to be proud of their ethnicity.
My Case
- In my opening, I have two arguments that present reasons one has to be proud of their ethnicity. Recall the arguments here so we can see how pro clearly fails to respond to them.
1. Pride as Resistance to Discrimination
- Pro says:
Although we can consider dignified resistance as an achievement,this achievement is individual.One has reason be proud for his own resilience and dignity, but not for his ethnicity. Since it is him/her, personally, who stood against discrimination.
- This simply presupposes that you only have a reason to be proud of things that you have personally done, chosen to do, or worked for. In other words, this just assumes premise [1] of Pro's argument. Not only have I shown it to be false, but Pro has given no argument for it, and pro failed to respond to my rebuttal to this premise as you will see, so we can simply toss this away.
2. Pride in Cultural Inheritance
Where do you find the achievement or quality or possession to being born (unwillingly due to pure chance) in a certain community?
- Once again, this presupposes that you only have reason to be proud of achievements, once again assuming premise [1] of Pro's argument, which I have decisively shown to be false, and which Pro has provided no argument for, so we can discard this.
Identifying with a certain ethnicity expresses a fact. A Biological one.
- It is not clear that ethnicity is a biological fact, even if it was. Pro has not shown that people lack any reason to be proud of biological facts.
Rebuttals
- Pro does not contest the formal rendition of his argument.
In a topic about ethnic pride, you bring up something totally different.Which is empathy.
- This is simply confusion. Premise [1] of the argument is:
[1] If something is not a personal or collective accomplishment (namely, something we minimally choose and work for), then there is no reason to be proud of it.
- So, about ethnicity or not, to falsify [1], a counterexample must be presented, a case where something is not a personal or collective accomplishment, where there is a reason to be proud of it--this is rather basic logic.
- Given that I have shown that pro's argument is unsound, and they have responded with a misunderstanding of logic.
The topic is whether there is any reason to be proud of ethnicity and not whether it is possible.
- This is merely pedantic semantics. Clearly, I have shown that there are paradigmatic examples of cases where people have reason to be proud of something they did not choose or work for.
Conclusion
- Pretty one-sided headed into round three, I have presented multiple independent arguments showing that there are indeed reasons to be proud of one's ethnicity. Pro failed to respond to them, perhaps in some cases, to understand them, and misunderstands basic logic.
Round 3
Pro
#5
“In my opening, I have two argumentsthat present reasons one has to be proud of their ethnicity. Recall thearguments here so we cansee how pro clearly fails to respond to them.” Con here suggests that he has not read my argument in which Iactually do respond to his weak statements. “This simply presupposes that you onlyhave a reason to be proud of things that you have personally done, chosen todo, or worked for. In other words, this just assumes premise [1] of Pro's argument. Not only haveI shown it to be false,but Pro has given no argument for it, and pro failed to respond to my rebuttalto this premise as you will see, so we can simply toss this away.”
In your example you talk about a personal achievement, which is resistance to discrimination. And I respond accordingly.
Since we here are arguing about ethnic pride, individual pride is not relevant.
“It is not clear that ethnicity is a biological fact,even if it was. Pro has not shown that people lack any reason to be proud of biological facts.”
I have said it twice in this debate that there is no reason to be proud of ethnicity since it is only a matter of chance.
Which you do not respond to because of your incompetence.
I must remind you that nitpicking only improves your statistics and does not allow you to actually make a sane argument for adebate.
“This is merely pedantic semantics. Clearly, I have shownthat there are paradigmatic examples of cases where people have reason to beproud of something they did not choose or work for.”
I do not recall you having shown anything like this.
If it is empathy you are talking about, then all you said is that a mother does not choose it but she just has it.
So, if you want to equate this to ethnic pride then you succumb to the argument that there is no reason to be proud but rather one just has it.
“So, about ethnicity or not, to falsify[1], a counterexample must be presented, a case where something is not apersonal or collective accomplishment, where there is a reason to be proud ofit--this is rather basic logic.”
The example provided by my opponent here is not a case which presents a reason to be proud for.
He only implies that an empathetic person may be proud for feeling empathy but does not give any reason on why he might be proud.
To which I also respond that there is no reason to be proud for being empathetic, but rather for having done a good deed from empathy.
Which is a personal accomplishment.
It is clear my opponent is very capable to making arguments just not any relevant one.
I am still waiting for him to provide a reason for one to be proud of their ethnicity.
He also de-facto concedes to the fact that people do not have any reason to feel proud but rather just feel so.
I still keep to my previous arguments for the 3rd time, on why people lack reason to be proud of their ethnicity:
There is nothing in one’s ethnicity which is chosen, won, accomplished, collectively or personally.
A person is born with many features, one of which is ethnicity.
It is only a matter of chance.
Everyone has an ethnicity.
No one has any reason to be proud of it.
Null.
My opponent clearly lacks ability to come up with a reason not because he is slow but because there is no reason to be provided.
He still has another chance but I modestly assume he will waste it nitpicking rather than making an argument for his case.
Thank you!
Con
#6
Overview
How Basic Logic Works
- Yes, seriously.
- Statements like "every dog is a mammal" use universal quantification. To show them false, a counterexample suffices—e.g., a dog that isn’t a mammal. The subject matter doesn't matter; any counterexample falsifies a universal claim.
Prelim
- Pro’s case depends entirely on the claim that one can only be proud of what one chooses, achieves, or works for. But this is never defended—Pro simply assumes it throughout. His argument stands or falls on this, so it falls. The dictionary definition of proud includes “feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.” Key word: qualities. Pride can be in achievements—but need not be.
My Case
- I gave two arguments for why people can have reason to be proud of their ethnicity. Pro has failed to answer either.
1. Pride as Resistance to Discrimination
- When others demean someone for their ethnicity, taking pride in that trait is a form of dignified resistance—a way to affirm worth and reclaim value, not to assert superiority. Pro initially replied:
Although we can consider dignified resistance as an achievement, this achievement is individual...One has reason be proud for his own resilience and dignity, but not for his ethnicity...
- I explained this begs the question—assuming pride must be earned, which is exactly what's at issue. Pro then replied:
In your example you talk about a personal achievement...Since we here are arguing about ethnic pride, individual pride is not relevant.
- But this misses the point. If the basis of the discrimination is ethnicity, then that same ethnicity becomes the object of dignified affirmation. You can be proud both of resisting and of the trait being demeaned. Pro never addresses this; he only cites something else you can be proud of, without showing why you have no reason to be proud of ethnicity.
2. Pride in Cultural Inheritance
- Pro objects that ethnicity is “a matter of chance.” But that cuts both ways. Many great accomplishments came by chance—like the discovery of penicillin.
- Good things can happen by chance, and people have reason to be proud of good things—whether chosen or not.
Rebuttals
- Pro’s argument was:
[1] If something is not a personal or collective accomplishment (i.e., something chosen/worked for), there is no reason to be proud of it.
[2] Ethnicity is not a personal or collective accomplishment.
[3] Therefore, there is no reason to be proud of one’s ethnicity.
- But I refuted [1] in Round 1 with a counterexample [MOTHERLY INSTINCT]. Pro replied the example wasn’t about ethnicity, which is a basic confusion. A counterexample to a universal claim doesn’t need to be about the same subject—just needs to show the form is invalid. Pro replies:
So, if you want to equate this to ethnic pride then you succumb to the argument that there is no reason to be proud but rather one just has it.
- Again, this assumes the conclusion—begging the question. We can dismiss it. He then says:
The example provided by my opponent here is not a case which presents a reason to be proud for.
- Looks like Pro is walking back his previous mistake!
- He also says I didn’t explain why the woman is proud of her empathy, when I explicitly stated:
"She is justifiably proud of a morally virtuous trait..."
- Virtuous traits are, by definition, good to have—so people have reason to be proud of them. Pro pretends this wasn’t said, so never responds to it.
- He further claims I conceded that people “just feel” proud but have no reason to—pure fiction. Pro seems to be trying to invent a fantasy in the final round!
Pro also says:
- Everyone has an ethnicity.
- But this doesn’t show pride is unjustified. If everyone in the future made great contributions, they would still have reason to be proud. Universality doesn’t nullify value.
Conclusion
- The choice is clear. Pro never justifies the principle his entire case depends on, fails to address core arguments, and repeatedly misunderstands basic logic. For what it’s worth, he also says:
Which you do not respond to because of your incompetence.
- I’ll let voters judge which side better demonstrated clarity and competence.
Can you confirm that if you could vote in this debate you would vote against yourself?
> “great debate guys”
Votes cast on debates must give sufficient analysis for any and all point awarded.
If my opponent could vote he would vote for me. I know he's crying.
"Why fight voters tho?"
If you dont fight and report bad votes, they will sense weakness and vote against you all the time because they can.
Now, not all bad votes get removed, but generally, votes like the one we see here do.
In the words of Machiavelli:
"Weakness gets exploited".
Why fight voters tho? Me and my dumb opponent both know i won this.
Ps: You got schooled by me a couple days back in the forum tho.
Forum is generally better for a debate. Here in debate section, you can either make truism debates which are easily won by definition but which wont be accepted often, or you must fight voters constantly. The only 3rd option is to have judges on a debate, but that too is a bother. Forum is ideal, and most of debating happens there anyway. Sometimes I debate in debate comments too, but actual debates are so pointless. You literally waste hours only to get trolled by voters.
Forum better?
@pierree
Great votes such as these are reason I dont put any effort into debates.
Just an RFD and you're good to go.
Japanese women are superior and have highest IQ. Koreans are dumber.
"Asian is better than white, unless its chinese asian or something."
I will give you Japanese women specifically. Korean fembboys do not count though
Asian is better than white, unless its chinese asian or something.
What a world we live in!
Cum skin idiot is proud as can be.
Pale white asian polish femboy is ashamed.
That is unfair!
I just know that you should be ashamed of your race as a non white.
I am pale white asian. Am I cum skin too? (I dont oppose to being called that).
Yes well, that's the color white. But you must know since you are white and proud right?
You are a proud cumskin.
I assume you are a cum skin (term for crackers) based on the profile pic.
Thank you my cracka
Look at you! Good job!
I vote on who won. I don't care about agreement. I am pro life and I still chose the winner correctly of savant vs bones
well i can't know your skin color but i can certainly know you are stupid.
Ethnicity: white
A proud white
Reason for pride: Color white
You beat me I surrender.
But hey, don't forget to vote for your fellow stupid patriot okay! Proud idiots!
No reason to be proud of my ethnicity?
I am literally white though
I wish i had another argument just to show this dumbass that he is indeed a dumbass. The topic is about whether there is any reason to be proud and he comes up with this:
"Pro’s case depends entirely on the claim that one can only be proud of what one chooses, achieves, or works for. But this is never defended"
Of course dumbass. One can be proud, but there is no REASON to be. What an absolute idiot. takes the easy side and still acts dumb.
One can be proud for being a dumbass like yourself mate. But there is no reason to. And you are the example of this. I can't believe i even considered you, sorry!
Well-done on this, Novice.
There are many predictable angles people could use as Con. But the version that you went for that is usually underutilized was argued very effectively here.
and where the fuck do i say that. read the topic. i'm not even liberal nor american.
Lintards- we should have race based hiring aka DEI black history month and Juneteenth but also people should not be proud of their identity based traits such as race, gender or sexual orientation.
But you just lost to a 1500
Thank you, although we both know even if I missed the round I would still win rather easily.
Tick tock
"Why yes?"
Is, I think a fair point.
I can't say I've thought on it deeply,
I 'do look forward to reading the debate.
Though I still hold to my, The 'reason is the 'having and/or connection. View.
. . . Well, humans 'do 'conflate and anthropomorphize. . . Movements, Nations, Groups. . .
I might say to someone from Britain, we still remember when you burned our White House down.
Of course it was different 'individuals from the past,
But by genetics, history, and law, the past gets connected to the present.
Heh, funnily, I'm not sure one 'necessarily even needs to 'be that connected.
Suppose we met some aliens from outer space,
Why, one would not need to be the same ethnicity of Watt, just the same species, to take pride by association.
Heh, and then the alien meets some being from another dimension,
Well, you know what 'we of 'this dimension take pride in having accomplished?
"Why not?"-
Why yes? Why take pride in something you did not achieve yourself. And in this topic i am explicitly talking about pride in ethnicity. Just because watt invented the steam engine does mot mean the english must feel proud of being the same ethnicity as him. They just were born there and all they did was sit down debating in debateart (for example). Western societies cannot say we are proud to be...because look what we have achieved. No. There were some guys in the past who built all this. You were just born here. If you achieve something yourself then you have all the right to be proud.
One's ancestors 'surviving 'despite all the mosquitos, and evolving sickle cells, sounds kind of metal,
Sounds something to take pride in, pride in one's ancestors, in possessing their same dna, pride in their survival of such.
You are my pride and joy, sounds more a parent than a child,
But there are still children ashamed or proud of their parents.
Why not extend to others of one's group?
When one's school football team wins, even if oneself did not play, why 'not take pride in being connected to those individuals?
Same with ethnicity, why 'not?
Pride by association.
'They did it, 'We did it, 'I did it.
Close enough.
of course we value our group more. that is an evolutionary trait.
But loving your family and feeling proud to have been born there are very different.
There is no reason to be proud just because you were favoured by chance and were not born in the sub-saharan africa fighting with malaria.
But there are plenty of reasons to love your family, even if it is an instinct.
I'm not sure why I need to 'work for something, to feel pride in it?
The 'reason is the 'having and/or connection.
. . .
Heh, I'm pretty Tribalistic in my views.
I think Humans have a tendency to live in groups, Societies, Clumps.
Loving and valuing most, those 'closest in our group, and to ourselves.
What kind of human values a stranger more than family?
Values an 'Outgroup more than their own 'Ingroup?
Well. . . There are many 'kinds values, many kinds of groupings, and I can appreciate a person valuing truth or kindness, to all persons.
. . . But I'd rather exalt my own Ingroup, to an extent.
I think their well being depends on being good people to others, so I 'would encourage that.
It's not 'just humans though,
Wolves hunting together, Birds of a feather flying together, Pods of whales swimming together.
Just nature and game theory, one builds pacts with the group closest to oneself, sometimes to the cost of others, but at times that's the cost of being alive and living well.
There was a theory, Suggested in the 1990's called Dunbars Number, Which suggested a 'limit, To the number of people we can maintain a stable social relationship with.
I am sure many people feel like you.
But there is no reason to. That is the topic.
You can be proud for catching a delicious wild seabass(yummy) because you worked for it.
You did not work for your blonde hair. Your ancestors might have been great, but are you?
Why take pride from their greatness?
" I 'do think there are other reasons why pride in genetics can be valuable."
I do not think there are any. They just drive us towards more division and exclusion.
ETHNIC PRIDE
I 'enjoy taking pride in my ancestors,
Even if there's luck to it.
If I was fishing and happened to catch a bigger fish, I'd take pride in having come into such a possession.
Course one can argue that took effort,
But eh, you also say 'collective accomplishments.
My ancestor did the work, and I'm proud of them.
. . . Other than pleasure, I 'do think there are other reasons why pride in genetics can be valuable.
It can inspire people to 'safeguard their ancestors' achievements, to be 'worthy of them, to not as an heir dishonor them in life.
I like my dirty blonde hair well enough, take pride in 'having it, though other hair colors are nice too.
He doesn't look like a fumbler.
If Novice_II fumbles this, reopen the debate. I'll give you a challenge.