Instigator / Pro
55
1485
rating
92
debates
45.65%
won
Topic
#809
Resolved: The United States ought to replace the Electoral College with a direct national popular vote
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 8 votes and with 40 points ahead, the winner is...
David
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 15,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
15
1706
rating
561
debates
68.09%
won
Description
Intro
The 2020 presidential election is well underway and this is a perennial issue.
Definitions
Electoral College - a body of electors established by the United States Constitution, constituted every four years for the sole purpose of electing the president and vice president of the United States.
Popular Vote - an election in which people vote directly for the candidate that they want
Rules
1. No forfeits
2. Citations must be provided in the text of the debate
3. No new arguments in the final speeches
4. Observe good sportsmanship and maintain a civil and decorous atmosphere
5. No trolling
6. No "kritiks" of the topic (challenging assumptions in the resolution)
7. For all resolutional terms, individuals should use commonplace understandings that fit within the logical context of the resolution, the reality of the US political landscape, and this debate
8. The BOP is evenly shared
9. Pro must post their arguments in R1 and waive in R4
10. Rebuttals of new points raised in an adversary's immediately preceding speech may be permissible at the judges' discretion even in the final round (debaters may debate their appropriateness)
11. Violation of any of these rules, or of any of the R1 set-up, merits a loss
Structure
1. Opening
2. Rebuttal
3. Defense
4. Closing
Round 1
I want to thank my opponent for accepting this debate. This is an important topic that comes up every election year. I affirm the resolution that the electoral college should be replaced with a direct national vote.
Framework
Major policy debates such as this should be evaluated on the framework of consequentialism, the framework where we judge the an actions of a proposed rule by evaluating the impacts they have on the people.
Value Premise: Democracy
“Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.” - Declaration of Independence
“The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.” - UN Declaration of Human Rights
In this debate, I would like to uphold the value of democracy. Democracy is defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary as “a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.” The criteria for which I weigh this value is the universal suffrage of the citizens. Each citizen should be given an equal say in the Presidential elections. This is commonly called one person one vote.
The Plan
All American citizens who are 18 years of age or older should be able to vote in the election. This would enable citizens of Puerto Rico and other US territories to have a say in the Presidential election. If there is no clear majority, then there will be an instant runoff election between the top two vote getters.
Contention 1: The Electoral College Undermines Democracy
5 times throughout history, the EC went against the direct popular vote; the most recent being in 2016 where Donald Trump won despite losing the popular vote by more than 2.8 million votes [1]. Furthermore, the percentage that is won in the EC vote is often far greater than the actual popular vote. For example, in 2012 President Obama was re-elected. Although he won 51% of the popular vote, he received 60% of the EC vote [2].
This creates an interesting paradox. You could theoretically win the Presidency with only 23% of the popular vote. [3]
The EC further violates the one-man-one-vote principle by making certain states worth more than other states. An individual vote in Wyoming counts nearly 4 times more in the EC than in Texas because Wyoming has 3 electoral college votes in a population of 532,668 citizens and Texas 32 electoral votes for a population of almost 25 million. As FairVote notes "By dividing the population by electoral votes, we can see that Wyoming has one "elector" for every 177,556 people and Texas has one "elector" for about every 715,499. The difference between these two states of 537,943 is the largest in the EC." [4]
If you are a Republican in a deep blue state, your vote does not count. States like CA and NY will almost certainly vote Democrat so voting Republican would make absolutely no difference. Similarly, if you are a Democrat in ruby red North Dakota, your vote also would not make any difference at all. Replacing the EC with a direct national vote will help to increase that turnout. Taylor Brodarick writes [5]:
Framework
Major policy debates such as this should be evaluated on the framework of consequentialism, the framework where we judge the an actions of a proposed rule by evaluating the impacts they have on the people.
Value Premise: Democracy
“Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.” - Declaration of Independence
“The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.” - UN Declaration of Human Rights
In this debate, I would like to uphold the value of democracy. Democracy is defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary as “a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.” The criteria for which I weigh this value is the universal suffrage of the citizens. Each citizen should be given an equal say in the Presidential elections. This is commonly called one person one vote.
The Plan
All American citizens who are 18 years of age or older should be able to vote in the election. This would enable citizens of Puerto Rico and other US territories to have a say in the Presidential election. If there is no clear majority, then there will be an instant runoff election between the top two vote getters.
Contention 1: The Electoral College Undermines Democracy
5 times throughout history, the EC went against the direct popular vote; the most recent being in 2016 where Donald Trump won despite losing the popular vote by more than 2.8 million votes [1]. Furthermore, the percentage that is won in the EC vote is often far greater than the actual popular vote. For example, in 2012 President Obama was re-elected. Although he won 51% of the popular vote, he received 60% of the EC vote [2].
This creates an interesting paradox. You could theoretically win the Presidency with only 23% of the popular vote. [3]
The EC further violates the one-man-one-vote principle by making certain states worth more than other states. An individual vote in Wyoming counts nearly 4 times more in the EC than in Texas because Wyoming has 3 electoral college votes in a population of 532,668 citizens and Texas 32 electoral votes for a population of almost 25 million. As FairVote notes "By dividing the population by electoral votes, we can see that Wyoming has one "elector" for every 177,556 people and Texas has one "elector" for about every 715,499. The difference between these two states of 537,943 is the largest in the EC." [4]
Contention 2: The EC lowers voter turnout
If you are a Republican in a deep blue state, your vote does not count. States like CA and NY will almost certainly vote Democrat so voting Republican would make absolutely no difference. Similarly, if you are a Democrat in ruby red North Dakota, your vote also would not make any difference at all. Replacing the EC with a direct national vote will help to increase that turnout. Taylor Brodarick writes [5]:
"Imagine Barack Obama speaking to crowds in Dallas or Mitt Romney campaigning in New York City. At the very least, it might engage more people in the national debate. If we ever hope to breach the 60% voter turnout threshold last seen in the 1960s (the last two elections have produced around 57%), this is one way to do so. The lawsuits that emerged in the fallout of the 2000 election will be less likely to reappear. When one state decides an election, it behooves all sides to fight for those electoral votes. If the popular vote decided the winner, I doubt we’d see such fallout again."
In the 2016 election, swing states had a significantly higher voter turnout than solid blue or solid red states. [6]
In order for a democracy to function properly, eligible citizens need to get out and vote. By suppressing voter turnout, the EC harms the overall function of our democracy.
Contention 3: Swing States vs. Safe States
As noted above, the vast majority of states are either solid blue or solid red. This gives little incentive for Presidential candidates to visit those areas and hear those concerns. In 2016, for example, two-thirds of campaign events were held in 6 battleground states (Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virginia, and Michigan), and 91% of events were held in those states + Arizona. [7] This means that only 9% of events were held in the other 38 states. By abolishing the EC, Presidential candidates would be forced to visit and acknowledge the issues that the rest of the 38 states are facing.
This also creates another interesting problem. If you’re up for reelection, you would want to make sure your policies don’t piss off the voters of these states, as losing only one or two of these could make or break your reelection. Greg Rushfeld notes [8]:
In order for a democracy to function properly, eligible citizens need to get out and vote. By suppressing voter turnout, the EC harms the overall function of our democracy.
Contention 3: Swing States vs. Safe States
As noted above, the vast majority of states are either solid blue or solid red. This gives little incentive for Presidential candidates to visit those areas and hear those concerns. In 2016, for example, two-thirds of campaign events were held in 6 battleground states (Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virginia, and Michigan), and 91% of events were held in those states + Arizona. [7] This means that only 9% of events were held in the other 38 states. By abolishing the EC, Presidential candidates would be forced to visit and acknowledge the issues that the rest of the 38 states are facing.
This also creates another interesting problem. If you’re up for reelection, you would want to make sure your policies don’t piss off the voters of these states, as losing only one or two of these could make or break your reelection. Greg Rushfeld notes [8]:
“U.S. policy toward Cuba, for example, has been shaped in no small part by the anti-Castro views of the large Cuban American community in the swing state of Florida. U.S. trade policy has been influenced by generally free trade–skeptical union votes in rustbelt swing states like Ohio.
….
The Electoral College system simply encourages the presidential candidates to pay additional attention to certain interest groups whose strategic location gives them greater electoral significance than [sic] they would otherwise enjoy.”
Conclusion
The electoral college undermines the value and the criteria of democracy in many key ways. Therefore the EC ought to be abolished and replaced with a direct national vote.
Over to con.
Sources
1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-lost-popular-vote-hillary-clinton-us-election-president-history-a7470116.html
2. https://transition.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2012/federalelections2012.pdf
3. https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500112248/how-to-win-the-presidency-with-27-percent-of-the-popular-vote
4. https://archive3.fairvote.org/reforms/national-popular-vote/the-electoral-college/problems-with-the-electoral-college/
5. https://www.forbes.com/sites/taylorbrodarick/2012/11/04/its-time-to-abolish-the-electoral-college/
6. https://nypost.com/2016/11/25/electoral-college-significantly-impacts-voter-turnout-study/
7. https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/campaign-events-2016
8. https://www.dummies.com/education/politics-government/how-swing-states-gain-disproportionate-power-in-washington-d-c/
The electoral college undermines the value and the criteria of democracy in many key ways. Therefore the EC ought to be abolished and replaced with a direct national vote.
Over to con.
Sources
1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-lost-popular-vote-hillary-clinton-us-election-president-history-a7470116.html
2. https://transition.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2012/federalelections2012.pdf
3. https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500112248/how-to-win-the-presidency-with-27-percent-of-the-popular-vote
4. https://archive3.fairvote.org/reforms/national-popular-vote/the-electoral-college/problems-with-the-electoral-college/
5. https://www.forbes.com/sites/taylorbrodarick/2012/11/04/its-time-to-abolish-the-electoral-college/
6. https://nypost.com/2016/11/25/electoral-college-significantly-impacts-voter-turnout-study/
7. https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/campaign-events-2016
8. https://www.dummies.com/education/politics-government/how-swing-states-gain-disproportionate-power-in-washington-d-c/
Forfeited
Round 2
Please extend all arugments
I should not have accepted this many debates at once. When you tryhard in debates, things change. This topic is very very complex with multiple moralities at play and I have forfeited which breaks rule 1 and can't break structure to open my arguments.
I am understanding my limits now, this will be useful to me in the future.
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>Reported Vote: Our_Boat_is_Right // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 7 points to Pro
>Reason for Mod Action: Full forfeit debates are not moderated unless the voter voted for the forfeiting side, per the site voting policy guidelines. No moderation action is appropriate on this vote. And yeah, there isn't really a COC violation here.
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I am definitely attracted to women though, just saying. I can't help that I'm a manly straight-leaning bicurious fucker but I was just wired this way.
Our_Boat_Is_Right is using gay in a derogatory way. Basically saying the contenders defeat is down to his homosexuality.
"How would you respond to the tyranny of the majority argument that happens with a national popular vote?"
Three ways:
First, the "tyranny of the majority" is protected by the constitution and the Bill of Rights;
Second, congress is set up in such a way that gives the "smaller states" a bigger voice in the Senate.
Last, the EC actually enables this "tyranny" because it requires a plurality of the vote in a state. If you vote Republican in California, your vote is automatically silenced by the EC.
RM accepting 14 debates at once is more then what I can do.
How would you respond to the tyranny of the majority argument that happens with a national popular vote?
Less than an hr.
Fair enough! Good luck! It’s nice to debate you again. Hopefully we will see this through the end.
the hardest part of the case is elaborating on what 'informed voters' are and why that matters more than 'many voters' despite many also mattering.
The impact of those less informed of the suffering or needs of thos ein rural areas is going to be a heavy hitter for my case. I just need some time to think.
You have less than a day to post.
Wrong. It is in the constitution and they are not the same things. They are both combined. (http://factmyth.com/why-did-the-founding-fathers-choose-a-republic/)
Because semantically they’re essentially the same thing. They were used interchangeably a in our earliest documents.
Dang. expanding my vocabulary. I still am confused. Explain wym.
False dichotomy.
Our country was never founded on a democracy. Our country was and always has been a democratic-republic.
lol we already have that in crazy AOC and her 96 trillion$ green new deal
Greens should have a turn in the white house too.
I agree. I’d also like to see some Greens in Congress
We need to abolish the 2 party system. Libertarians deserve a shot at the white house.
lol ikr RM just floods all the debates, it's very annoying .
Except for RM of course, what won’t he accept
because the EC keeps power in check and let's minority voices be heard. It protects from mob rule which just gets corrupt.
Lol
I’d distance myself from them if I were you
(Jk)
This is actually quite controversial. I know many people who are against abolishing the EC.
WHy would anyone challenge this