A traditional defense against the problem of evil

Debates: 23

Posts: 102

0

1

7

11.11.2023 11:51PM

0

1

7

11.11.2023 11:51PM

The problem of evil is well known so I don’t feel the need to explain it in depth but I’ll summarize

Either god is not willing to stop evil, then god is not all good

Or god is not able, in which case he is not omnipotent

Or god does not even know evil exists, in which case he is not omniscient

It’s a curious question as to why a all-loving god would allow evil, maybe I can’t tell you why exactly, but perhaps I can show it doesn’t necessitate a contradiction.

Premise 1: it’s not logically contradictory for bad to be a means to a good.

It doesn’t appear as if bad things causing good things is contradictory, for example when someone gets a shot, that shot causes pain, which is bad to cause, but it’s the means to a good, the good being the medicine that is delivered.

Conclusion 1: there is a possible world where evil can lead to good

Follows logically from premise 1, if it’s possible then there is a possible world where it is that case

Conclusion 2: A all-loving god could have morally sufficient reasons to allow suffering

Follows logically from conclusion 1, same way the doctor would be justified for causing pain if it lead to a good.

So to conclude I don’t think it necessitates contradiction, of course I could be wrong and I hope someone corrects me if I am, although I don’t think I am.

#2

Debates: 276

Posts: 8,051

4

6

10

11.12.2023 12:41AM

4

6

10

11.12.2023 12:41AM

So all evil is necessary and justified? Nice. Really, that is nice. I cant even express how nice that is.

#3

Debates: 0

Posts: 953

3

2

5

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7610-asking-why-suffering-exists-is-like-asking-why-darkness-exists

11.12.2023 01:01AM

3

2

5

11.12.2023 01:01AM

is it possible for there to be a purpose for suffering? yes. it can help us make progress to end suffering. we are co creators in that sense. it can give people the perspective to appreciate no suffering. as jesus said, the man wasn't born with health problems because of something him or his parents did, but to give glory to God when he's one day disease free.

also, asking why we still have suffering is like asking why darkness exists. that's just the way it is. can we have just light? i dont think that is possible in our reality. same way, suffering may need to exist in this reality too.

of course, a person can just insist that if it's possible for suffering not to exist but does, then it isn't necessary. a person could rationally cling to that principle, but they have to admit that they might be wrong if everything i say is true, and they need to admit that the alternative view that i present is completely realistic. What if God and heaven exist, and the reality is how i present it? then the skeptic is just clinging to philosophy that has no basis in reality. the words and thoughts, the pointless ramblings, of mere men.

more

Topic's author

#4

Debates: 23

Posts: 102

0

1

7

11.12.2023 01:25AM

0

1

7

11.12.2023 01:25AM

-->

@Best.Korea

It’s certainly a possibility, I’m not 100% certain, just think it’s possible

Topic's author

#5

Debates: 23

Posts: 102

0

1

7

11.12.2023 01:59AM

0

1

7

11.12.2023 01:59AM

-->

@n8nrgim

I find it rather interesting, how could a god turn all things good, I feel as if I’m lost on this subject but maybe that’s just because of the nature of it, there’s sort of a paradox in understanding it, if god is infinitely beyond us, how could we possibly expect to have a complete understanding of it, analogously we can’t even get close to understanding a 4d cube, but we can get a idea through a tesseract, which is just the shadow of a 4d cube. We can’t understand god’s actions fully but we can get a understanding through his word, and his son.

Suffering will not end, it will not end until the day we all get our garden back, god taking away our garden is one of the most merciful acts possible, at the end of genesis 2, it says god drove adam & eve out of the garden then says “for if they ate of the tree of life, they would live forever” wouldn’t be horrible if man had to live in their sins forever?

You can not naturally have darkness without light, a crooked without a straight line, coldness without warmth, bad without good or vice versa. God consequently created the standard for bad by creating the standard for good.

I think it’s impossible to show bad leading to good is impossible, as I pointed out a doctor may harm a child by giving him a shot, that is a bad thing yet it can be the means to a good

#6

Debates: 0

Posts: 953

3

2

5

11.12.2023 02:07AM

3

2

5

11.12.2023 02:07AM

-->

@SethBrown

there's also the possibility that we are dealing with the consequences of original sin, due to the fall of man. i agree with eastern christians, that we dont inherit sin, we inherit just the propensity to sin. but even just the propensity to sin, means that on this side of heaven, there is imperfection. near death experiences teach us that a purpose of life, is to experience separation.... the next life is about unity and oneness, but this life is about separation and imperfection.

#7

Debates: 22

Posts: 11,444

3

6

11.12.2023 06:08AM

3

6

11.12.2023 06:08AM

-->

@n8nrgim

@SethBrown

Stuff happens boys.

Is it a part of an intentional or inevitable process or not?

Fact is that you nor I know not.

All that I do know is that God (Christian), sin and evil are relatively recent thought constructs.

Ongoing evolution of the organic computer, upon this tiny speck of cosmic dust we refer to as Planet Earth.

And so we slowly enter a new era of non-organic intelligence.

And material development seems to be moving on OK, despite sin and evil and religious beliefs.

Though whether or not we will continue to move on towards a conclusion, remains to be seen.

Viewed like this, it would seem that most human organisms are surplus to requirements anyway, and their concepts of sin, evil and humanesque GODS are largely superfluous and irrelevant.

So I doubt that a GOD (an overseer of the process) feels the need to intervene.

Though I tend to run more with the idea that GOD is the inevitable process.

#8

Debates: 0

Posts: 5,289

3

4

8

11.12.2023 03:57PM

3

4

8

11.12.2023 03:57PM

-->

@zedvictor4

I know you are a very intelligent person, so my guess is that you are related to Schopenhauer?

#9

Debates: 24

Posts: 382

1

2

4

11.12.2023 04:04PM

1

2

4

11.12.2023 04:04PM

-->

@SethBrown

There is another argument that includes free will.

Where as to allow evil is to allow man's choice for good or evil.

To disallow man's choice takes away free will.

Taking away free will excludes love

Love would, logically, allow free will.

An all good God will show love inspite of evil.

Therefore an all good God would allow evil because that God loves to extent to allow free will.

....or something like that. Im hesitant if the conclusion is 100% accurate in articulation based on its premises.

Or in other words I think I articuated the conclusion with error.

Topic's author

#10

Debates: 23

Posts: 102

0

1

7

11.12.2023 05:44PM

0

1

7

11.12.2023 05:44PM

-->

@hey-yo

There is another argument that includes free will.

Free will isn’t required in this argument, you could incorporate it though.

I like the free-will defense sorta combined with this, an atheist would have to prove free-will is impossible, and that god having morally sufficient reasons to allow evil is impossible.

The burden of proof is simply too heavy to meet

#11

Debates: 22

Posts: 11,444

3

6

11.12.2023 07:06PM

3

6

11.12.2023 07:06PM

-->

@FLRW

Obviously.

#12

Debates: 0

Posts: 5,289

3

4

8

11.12.2023 08:17PM

3

4

8

11.12.2023 08:17PM

-->

@zedvictor4

I knew you were a genius !

#13

Debates: 3

Posts: 4,367

3

2

5

11.12.2023 08:21PM

3

2

5

11.12.2023 08:21PM

-->

@SethBrown

It doesn’t appear as if bad things causing good things is contradictory, for example when someone gets a shot, that shot causes pain, which is bad to cause, but it’s the means to a good, the good being the medicine that is delivered.

Except that the shot doesn't need to be painful.

There is no example of bad being necessary or even beneficial that an all powerful god could not get around. Bad leads to good because that's how we are designed to react to it, if we along with the universe were designed differently that wouldn't be the case.

#14

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,368

3

2

6

11.12.2023 08:45PM

3

2

6

11.12.2023 08:45PM

-->

@SethBrown

You forgot an important factor.

Or perhaps I didn't read it.

Without God in the picture, evil still exists.

This I think is one of (not the only one) the best evidences that evil doesn't spring from God.

If God doesn't exist, evil still is as evil as it ever has been. Ask ever atheist. They can't have it both ways. They recognise evil in the world right now. They know how terrible it is. If they don't believe in God, then they must have an explanation for it. What is it? They can't turn around and then blame it on God.

#15

Debates: 276

Posts: 8,051

4

6

10

11.12.2023 09:15PM

4

6

10

11.12.2023 09:15PM

-->

@Tradesecret

Without God in the picture, evil still exists

Well, your God says he created the world.

So no God, no world, no evil.

I mean, you religious folks really gotta think of some better arguments.

In case of Lucifer, Lucifer is not creator so he isnt at fault for evil.

Christians really shot themselves in the foot when they claimed God created everything.

Now they have to defend the position that every evil in the world and every rape in the world is not only justified, but necessary.

Lol at you

#16

Debates: 24

Posts: 382

1

2

4

11.12.2023 09:29PM

1

2

4

11.12.2023 09:29PM

-->

@Tradesecret

@Best.Korea

Concepts are mistaken or misunderstood often.

For athiests, "evil" is somwthing really bad but I feel like the accurate definition is still missed and rarely do we see the claim that evil is just a disliked thing.

For christians "evil" is the abscence or rejection of God. All acts that are evil are considered as such because the acts inherently reject and are abscent of God.

If an athiest is saying god does not exist, then they will not use the christian definition.

Fortunately, to claim god created everything is not a statement of "god created every object and action and event." On average, (considering a bell curve) majority christian theology does not take this position.

On contrary, God created all things as in physics, time, space, earth, life, etc. God allows these things to operate freely. Ex: when a human does x, that human is the cause of and therefore responsible for x.

#17

Debates: 0

Posts: 5,289

3

4

8

11.12.2023 09:34PM

3

4

8

11.12.2023 09:34PM

-->

@zedvictor4

I actually look like your profile pic.

#18

Debates: 22

Posts: 11,444

3

6

11.12.2023 09:48PM

3

6

11.12.2023 09:48PM

-->

@FLRW

Perhaps we are related.

Descended from a long line of genii.

#19

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,368

3

2

6

11.12.2023 10:01PM

3

2

6

11.12.2023 10:01PM

-->

@Best.Korea

Without God in the picture, evil still exists
Well, your God says he created the world.

So no God, no world, no evil.

I mean, you religious folks really gotta think of some better arguments.

In case of Lucifer, Lucifer is not creator so he isnt at fault for evil.

Christians really shot themselves in the foot when they claimed God created everything.

Now they have to defend the position that every evil in the world and every rape in the world is not only justified, but necessary.

Lol at you

Nothing like NOT answering my point. It's too difficult for people like yourself to actually have to think, isn't it?

Whatever I think about evil - and what part God had in it or not is IRRELEVANT really. And I have addressed elsewhere.

The Atheist knows evil exists. It is all around the Atheist, every day. And this is the case EVEN though they "know" God does not exist.

Take God out of the picture and the exact amount of evil still exists. It doesn't change. The Atheist has to concede that its cause is not God.

Hence, unless they are prepared to agree with the idea of first and second causes, then they can't attribute anything to a being they don't believe in.

I believe in the first and second causes. Just like the story of Jonah described. In Chapter 1, the sailors threw the prophet into the sea. And in Chapter 2, Jonah asserts it was God who hurled him into the deep.

The Christian says God created all things. Evil of course is not a thing. It is an action or lack of action. It is a lack of goodness. It isn't a thing per se. Rape is not a created thing. It is the breaking of a rule. It is an action or a lack of doing something good. You can't create a rape. Sin is in the same category. Sin is not a thing. It is an action or an omission of an action. Theft is taking something. It is not a thing. Adultery is the breaking of a rule. It is not a thing. Murder or killing something is not a thing. You don't create a murder. You don't create an adultery. You don't create an evil.

You need to think. You need to define your terms better. You speak so much nonsense that you actually believe. Yes, the Bible says God created good and God created evil. I've read that - but he is not talking about creating a thing. He made only good things. And no one can find anything in the universe that God created - a thing that is not good. Even Satan. God made Lucifer. He was an angel. Lucifer rebelled against God. That was an action. Satan is simply a rebellious angel. He is not evil per se.

Even in your comments - you swing between things and actions. between nouns and verbs. evil is not a thing. It is the lack of doing good. And in the context where God is said to create evil, the context is clearly about judgment on those who do evil. And the word evil like most of us would agree becomes subjective. God does evil upon the evildoers. In other words, like the criminal in court who is sentenced by the judge will call any sentence evil or bad or not good, so God causes judgment on those who do evil. In the eyes of the evil doer, God's judgment will always be evil, even though the rest of the universe will say- praise God. And thank you for bringing judgment on that person.

judgment of course is not a thing. It is an action. An action on evildoers. It is not created out of thin air. It is not something you can pick up and put in your pocket. It is not something you can take to the bank and say - look after this. It is an action. If God judged the evil doer, the evil doer says - evil. If God does not judge the evil doer, then the good in the community say "evil". It is action.

#20

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,368

3

2

6

11.12.2023 10:02PM

3

2

6

11.12.2023 10:02PM

-->

@hey-yo

I can live with that.

Thanks.

#21

Debates: 276

Posts: 8,051

4

6

10

11.12.2023 10:14PM

4

6

10

11.12.2023 10:14PM

-->

@Tradesecret

In other words, like the criminal in court who is sentenced by the judge will call any sentence evil or bad or not good

Except in this case, God created the criminal and then punished him for the crime which God caused him to do.

Lol at you again 😁

#22

Debates: 276

Posts: 8,051

4

6

10

11.12.2023 10:35PM

4

6

10

11.12.2023 10:35PM

-->

@Tradesecret

God does evil upon the evildoers.

Thats not true.

God also often kills and tortures children and babies. Circumcision and being crushed by car being just one of many examples.

God even promised that good people will suffer. So really, why cant you simply admit that your God is evil and then proceed to worship your evil God.

Why do you insist that your master is good? Like, is lying about your master gonna get you rewards? Well your master is a liar too, so it fits.

Topic's author

#23

Debates: 23

Posts: 102

0

1

7

11.12.2023 11:04PM

0

1

7

11.12.2023 11:04PM

-->

@Double_R

There is no example of bad being necessary or even beneficial that an all powerful god could not get around. Bad leads to good because that's how we are designed to react to it, if we along with the universe were designed differently that wouldn't be the case.

#1 God could allow evil and just created good from it (what I think he does, and is most reasonable in doing)

#2 God could give us that good without needing evil to exist.

Now #2 isnt impossible to do, but there are some "bad" things god must allow to happen to be good, for example he must permit people to die of old age eventually. Now similarly, I think god must allow people to make their own choices to be good, he must allow them free-will. Are you really good if your forced to do good by some man in a sky? I wouldnt say so, since your intention isnt there. Now some of god's creatures went wrong in this exercise of freedom, and that caused evil. But God can still make great things from bad things, I think alot of people have became theists from seeing bad things.

Topic's author

#24

Debates: 23

Posts: 102

0

1

7

11.12.2023 11:06PM

0

1

7

11.12.2023 11:06PM

-->

@Tradesecret

I think that should be acknowledged, that's more playing into the freewill defense which I sorta combine with this, an atheist would have to prove free-will doesnt exist, and it's impossible for god to have morally sufficient reasons to allow evil. That's a heavy burden of proof.

#25

Debates: 276

Posts: 8,051

4

6

10

11.13.2023 12:31AM

4

6

10

11.13.2023 12:31AM

-->

@Tradesecret

Why did you become Christian? You are not a virgin.

According to Bible, only 144000 men will enter heaven, and they will all be virgin men. The rest go to burn.

I am a virgin, so even as satanist I have better chance of going to heaven than you!

#26

IlDiavolo

Debates: 0

Posts: 1,278

3

2

5

IlDiavolo

11.13.2023 02:02AM

3

2

5

11.13.2023 02:02AM

When people suffer, fear or are under threat, they either get evil or find a religion or any belief to get comfort. This is the human nature.

So, evil is a mechanism of defense. If God created the human being I would say that his creation is a fucking mess because the human mechanism of defense is inappropiate or flawed.

In fact, this is one of the arguments atheists use to prove God doesn't exist, that what he created is not perfect like him, because a perfect being only creates perfect things.

All in all, the most logical definition for God (if you want to create in a abrahamic God of course) is that he's not omnipotent nor omniscient.

#27

Debates: 24

Posts: 382

1

2

4

11.13.2023 04:02AM

1

2

4

11.13.2023 04:02AM

-->

@zedvictor4

Descended from a long line of genii.

This typo or slang?

Or you descended from jinns?

#28

Debates: 24

Posts: 382

1

2

4

11.13.2023 04:28AM

1

2

4

11.13.2023 04:28AM

-->

@IlDiavolo

Yeah I never got that argument. "God made us in His image," but we never read about how we are made exactly like Him.

We would be gods if we were.

This also assumes what perfection is - disregarding context to what christian theology speaks on.

Yes, yes, God can make something perfect but this kinda ignores the whole narative that

A. We were made perfect

B we fell from this perfection

C. we have free will and ability to choose to reject God.

As descendents, we can not obtain perfection that was granted to early humans (or anything close to it) because our ancestors can not give it to us. Like genetics. Im north african. My ancestors had far greater percentage than me, and my decendents will be decrease. my son can not pass on the african traits he does not have. Likewise I can not pass on any spiritual trait that resembles perfection.

If we are to remain perfect to prevent evil, then would we have an ability to choose anything? Can we really have free will?

The importance to this? Considering a bell curve, any christian theology that declares that we do not have free will is an outlier. We would not consider it as a/the standard.

So really. If we want to consider what a god is and include at least christian theology. Then a perfect omni- anything god would be able to create something that could rejected said god. To "fall from grace," as it were.

#29

Debates: 22

Posts: 11,444

3

6

11.13.2023 07:52AM

3

6

11.13.2023 07:52AM

-->

@hey-yo

Not sure what you mean.

Though genii is the plural form of genius.

Which I'm sure you already know.

#30

Debates: 3

Posts: 4,367

3

2

5