Man how the overton window has shifted

Author: TheUnderdog

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15 years ago:

Conservatives: The bible is against homosexuality.  Homosexuality is bad!
Liberals: The bible says to love and accept everyone!

Now (or sometime in the future, but I can definitely see the trend):

Conservatives: The bible says to love and accept everyone!
Liberals: The bible is against homosexuality.  The bible and Christianity are bad!

Me: I personally don't like Christainity and I don't consider myself to be Christain.  My main reason is that if God burns people in hell forever, I think he violates the 8th amendment (and the constitution and the bill of rights are a much better source of legal morality than Christianity and the bible) and I don't care how many Christians I piss off from saying that.  But at the same time, God saying things like, "gays are bad and I don't like them" to me is free speech.  If he advocated the death penalty for gays, I would take issue with it.  But if he says stuff like, "it's an abomination", to me, that's free speech.

But with the radical left, they don't take nearly as much issue with God burning people in hell forever, as much as they do with the bible saying things like, "Homosexuality is degenerate".

I'm LGBT, but I would rather be called degenerate than burn in hell forever under any circumstances whether LGBT or not.

I hate Christainity more over it's threats of eternal hellfire (if accurate) than I am about any anti alphabet attitudes it may have.

But everyone goes to heaven.  Jesus paid for everyone's sins, so you go to heaven no matter what.
you may say.

Then why do I have to worship God?  I'm going to heaven no matter what by your logic.
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@TheUnderdog
I'm LGBT

You' have to excuse my ignorance but is it possible to be all four?
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@TheUnderdog


TheUnderdog,

YOUR MISGUIDED QUOTE RELATIVE TO CHRISTIANITY: "Then why do I have to worship God?  I'm going to heaven no matter what by your logic."

WRONG!  Jesus in Christianity stated with specificity that He ONLY came for the Jews and none other:  JESUS SAID: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)". Therefore, you must be of the Hebrew Faith to be a follower of Jesus, and to therefore enter Jesus' glorified 1400 square mile heaven with its 65 foot high walls as shown biblically, praise!
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@Stephen
I'm LGBT

You' have to excuse my ignorance but is it possible to be all four?
No.  The first 3 letters are mutually exclusive sets.

But none of the first 3 letters are mutually exclusive with the 4th letter (I'm not in the 4th letter).
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Well, if God burns people in hell forever, he violates the 8th amendment.

And the constitution and the bill of rights is a better source of morality that Christianity and the bible.


Africa treats the bible very seriously.

When it comes to religious Christain countries, in general, the more religious they are, the more of a shithole they are.

America is a secular country.  Maybe Africa is more to your liking than America.

The Founding Fathers were based; they got America out of religious law from Great Britain.

1776.  Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!
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@TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog,


YOUR UNGODLY PRECEPTS GO DIRECTLY AGAINST MY SERIAL KILLER JESUS AS GOD!:  "Well, if God burns people in hell forever, he violates the 8th amendment. And the constitution and the bill of rights is a better source of morality that Christianity and the bible."

Jesus as God could give a shit about man's laws as you described in your laughable ungodly quote above, whereas the TRUE Christian is to follow Jesus' laws instead of some stupid ass 8th Amendment or the constitution of the USA!  "But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29). GET IT? HUH?

Yes, my ever loving and forgiving Jesus as God will BURN YOU FOREVER IN THE SULFUR LAKES OF HELL if you disobey his 613 commandments within the JUDEO-Christian bible, understood?  You in particular, will know when you are about to die, and that is because you will start smelling SULFUR!  


NEXT MEMBER LIKE "THEUNDERDOG" THAT ALSO WANTS TO GO TO HELL UPON THEIR EARTHLY DEMISE, WILL BE ...?

.

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@TheUnderdog

C'mon Man!
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@TheUnderdog
I'm LGBT

You' have to excuse my ignorance but is it possible to be all four?
No.  The first 3 letters are mutually exclusive sets.

But none of the first 3 letters are mutually exclusive with the 4th letter (I'm not in the 4th letter).
So that will be lesbian, gay, bisexual ?
WTF!  so you are not four but three, and you swing both ways while at the same time you are two?  have you ever considered that it  maybe that have mental issues or have been caused to be confused or simply that you are  just going with the zeitgeist?



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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
"But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29)
The bible is irrelevant.  Obey God's laws if you want to if you aren't harming anyone else by doing so.

But following man's laws is more important than following God's laws.

If you disagree with that, why don't you do what you need to do to immigrate to heaven so you can live under God's law rather than man's law?  I don't actually want you to do this, but I can respect someone that "lives" their values and puts their money where their mouth is.

But you are probably a boomer.  I'm Gen Z.  

My generation is undeniably and uncontrollably replacing yours because you guys didn't abort us.  If you guys try and spread your genes more to combat your generation replacement, you will create more young people (that easily could vote blue, especially if they turn atheist as a result of your religious cult).

Note, if I hypothetically decided to become Christain and obey God, it would be because a man (you) told me to do so.  God wouldn't tell me to do that, because God doesn't talk.

So I'm stuck with obeying man no matter what.
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@FLRW
I don't get the joke.
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
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@TheUnderdog


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TheUnderdog,

YOUR PITIFUL MISGUIDED QUOTE AGAIN:  "The bible is irrelevant.  Obey God's laws if you want to if you aren't harming anyone else by doing so."

HELLO?!  If you are a TRUE Christian, you have to harm others that are not of the faith as easily shown in this godly link, DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!!: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10301/posts/421057


YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE ALLUDING TO "SUICIDE!!!:"  "If you disagree with that, why don't you do what you need to do to immigrate to heaven so you can live under God's law rather than man's law?"

How dare you make such an ungodly statement like you did above, see, this is what is wrong in you not accepting my serial killer Jesus as your God to follow!
"Be not overly wicked, neither be a fool. Why should you die before your time?" (Ecclesiastes 7:17)


YOUR OVERWHELMING STUPIDITY OF THE FAITH OF CHRISTIANITY:  "Note, if I hypothetically decided to become Christain and obey God, it would be because a man (you) told me to do so.  God wouldn't tell me to do that, because God doesn't talk."

HELLO AGAIN?  Jesus as my serial killer God in the Bible talked all the time in the New Testament,  GET IT? HUH? 2+2=4!


TheUnderdog, are you sure you want to continue  in discussion with me, where at this point, I am making you the ungodly fool in front of the membership!  LOL!


NEXT UNGODLY MEMBER LIKE "THEUNDERDOG" THAT WANTS TO SHOW HIMSELF TO BE THE FOOL OF CHRISTIANITY, WILL BE ...?
.



 
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@TheUnderdog
15 years ago:

Conservatives: The bible is against homosexuality.  Homosexuality is bad!
Liberals: The bible says to love and accept everyone!
Conservatives confessed homosexuality is sinful. Badness is a human word. Conservatives have always loved everyone. 
Liberals accepted everyone except the conservatives. 

Now (or sometime in the future, but I can definitely see the trend):

Conservatives: The bible says to love and accept everyone!
Liberals: The bible is against homosexuality.  The bible and Christianity are bad! 
Conservatives continue to maintain that homosexuality is sinful. Loving everyone has always been the conservative position. 
Liberals don't agree with the Bible and never have unless it is interpreted exactly as they like. 
There is a third group now. Somewhere between the Conservatives and the Liberals.  They don't see homosexuality as sinful. 

Me: I personally don't like Christainity and I don't consider myself to be Christain.  My main reason is that if God burns people in hell forever, I think he violates the 8th amendment (and the constitution and the bill of rights are a much better source of legal morality than Christianity and the bible) and I don't care how many Christians I piss off from saying that.  But at the same time, God saying things like, "gays are bad and I don't like them" to me is free speech.  If he advocated the death penalty for gays, I would take issue with it.  But if he says stuff like, "it's an abomination", to me, that's free speech.
Yes, I think you've said this before or something akin to it.  Not liking something doesn't mean it is wrong. I think if God didn't exercise judgment on a godly basis that he would not be God and in fact would be a liar. I couldn't in good faith worship a liar of a God. I think the American Constitution was a product of its time and betrayed Christianity. Its morality is suspect on many levels. God doesn't need free speech. He invented speech. God doesn't care whether you take issue with him or not. At the end of the day, whether you worship him or not, you are under his jurisdiction. Just like at the end of the day, you are under the jurisdiction of the American president whether you voted for him or not.  The difference is that you can renounce your American citizenship and leave the country.  

But with the radical left, they don't take nearly as much issue with God burning people in hell forever, as much as they do with the bible saying things like, "Homosexuality is degenerate".
The radical left don't even believe in God, so it's hypocritical in whatever stance they take.
 
I'm LGBT, but I would rather be called degenerate than burn in hell forever under any circumstances whether LGBT or not.
The question is not whether you are LGBT or not. It is whether you reject Christ or not. 

I hate Christainity more over it's threats of eternal hellfire (if accurate) than I am about any anti alphabet attitudes it may have.
Christianity doesn't threaten Hellfire. It repeats the promises of God for covenant-breaking.  

But everyone goes to heaven.  Jesus paid for everyone's sins, so you go to heaven no matter what.
you may say.

Then why do I have to worship God?  I'm going to heaven no matter what by your logic.
Some Christians hold to the view that Jesus paid for everyone's sins.  Conservatives would take the view that Jesus paid for those people who trust in him but not the rest. Or they would hold to the view that Jesus paid for all, but for people to receive eternal life, they need to accept it.  If you have rejected Christ, you won't go to heaven according to the Bible. The reason we worship God is not to go to heaven. It is because God is God and deserves praise and adoration.  Interestingly enough, worshipping God is not able to get you to heaven. Lots of people praise God with their lips but not with their hearts.  They are far from God. 

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Conservatives confessed homosexuality is sinful. Badness is a human word. Conservatives have always loved everyone. Liberals accepted everyone except the conservatives. 
I don't love anyone.  I don't love strangers.  I wouldn't send money to a stranger, so I don't love them.  It sounds kindof socialist.

I think if God didn't exercise judgment on a godly basis that he would not be God and in fact would be a liar.
I hope God changes his laws.

At the end of the day, whether you worship him or not, you are under his jurisdiction. 
If his jurisdiction burns people in hell forever, he is unfit for worship.  When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.

 I think the American Constitution was a product of its time and betrayed Christianity. 
Do you support theocracy?  Yes or no.

Just like at the end of the day, you are under the jurisdiction of the American president whether you voted for him or not.  The difference is that you can renounce your American citizenship and leave the country.  
The difference is the American POTUS violates the 8th amendment way more than God does if God burns people in hell forever.

The question is not whether you are LGBT or not. It is whether you reject Christ or not. 
What does it mean to reject Christ?

Conservatives would take the view that Jesus paid for those people who trust in him but not the rest. Or they would hold to the view that Jesus paid for all, but for people to receive eternal life, they need to accept it.  
These views are identical.

The reason we worship God is not to go to heaven.
For me, it would be if I worshipped God.  Otherwise there is no point.

It is because God is God and deserves praise and adoration.  
No he doesn't if he burns people in hell forever.

Lots of people praise God with their lips but not with their hearts.  
To me, this sounds like feelings.

Damn, this god is an egotistical maniac if he wants billions of people bootlicking him.
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@TheUnderdog
Conservatives confessed homosexuality is sinful. Badness is a human word. Conservatives have always loved everyone. Liberals accepted everyone except the conservatives. 
I don't love anyone.  I don't love strangers.  I wouldn't send money to a stranger, so I don't love them.  It sounds kindof socialist.
I guess it depends upon what you mean by love.  For me, love is obeying God and keeping his commandments. Hence, I don't kill people. I don't commit adultery. I don't steal. I don't desire their goods. I don't lie about them. If you do any of these things for your enemies, then you are loving them.  I am anti-socialist. 


I think if God didn't exercise judgment on a godly basis that he would not be God and in fact would be a liar.
I hope God changes his laws.
I don't want God to change his laws.  What God does do though is enable the application of his law in the circumstances. Hence, where in the OT homosexuality in Israel had the maximum penalty of death, in the NT, it is still covenant-breaking, but it doesn't require the death penalty unless the law of the land makes it so. And that is not a God law, it is a state law. In respect of eternal life or death, people here on earth don't like God and don't want to spend eternity with him, so the alternative is - eternity without God.  After all, why would you want to spend eternity with God if you hate him?

At the end of the day, whether you worship him or not, you are under his jurisdiction. 
If his jurisdiction burns people in hell forever, he is unfit for worship.  When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
In the sense that anyone burns in hell forever, that is because they have chosen to reject God. That is their choice. 

 I think the American Constitution was a product of its time and betrayed Christianity. 
Do you support theocracy?  Yes or no.
What is theocracy? The word means rule by God.  Most people are afraid not of theocracy but of ecclesiocracy or rule by the church. I reject this latter term and its rule.  In relation to theocracy, it depends upon what is meant by it. I hold to a couple of conflicting views here. In one sense, I think theocracy is inescapable. In other words, it is not a matter of theocracy or no theocracy, but what kind of theocracy.  I think in that sense, every nation in the world is already a theocracy. The question is who the god who rules?  Democracy means rule by the majority. But in that case, the majority is god. In a dictatorship, it is ruled by the dictator. In socialism it is rule by the elite.   Yet, I disagree with the rule by the church.  

Just like at the end of the day, you are under the jurisdiction of the American president whether you voted for him or not.  The difference is that you can renounce your American citizenship and leave the country.  
The difference is the American POTUS violates the 8th amendment way more than God does if God burns people in hell forever.
I'm not American - I don't know what the 8th amendment is. 

The question is not whether you are LGBT or not. It is whether you reject Christ or not. 
What does it mean to reject Christ?
It is to deny that he is LORD. 

Conservatives would take the view that Jesus paid for those people who trust in him but not the rest. Or they would hold to the view that Jesus paid for all, but for people to receive eternal life, they need to accept it.  
These views are identical.
No, they are not. They are very different. One is Calvinist. The other is Arminian.  One says Jesus died only for the elect. The other that Jesus died for all but not applied to all. 

The reason we worship God is not to go to heaven.
For me, it would be if I worshipped God.  Otherwise there is no point.
Respectfully, for me that would be a dumb idea. 


It is because God is God and deserves praise and adoration.  
No he doesn't if he burns people in hell forever.
I think God deserves praise because he is good and holy.   Burning people in Hell is an apt judgment by an eternal God. Of course not all Christians believe in eternal hell anyway.   

Lots of people praise God with their lips but not with their hearts.  
To me, this sounds like feelings.
Not feelings, just words.  

Damn, this god is an egotistical maniac if he wants billions of people bootlicking him.
God doesn't want people bootlicking him.  He does demand loyalty though. If he wanted bootlicking, he would do it. 

Loyalty however springs from having the choice. 

YouFound_Lxam
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@TheUnderdog

Me: I personally don't like Christainity and I don't consider myself to be Christain.  My main reason is that if God burns people in hell forever, I think he violates the 8th amendment (and the constitution and the bill of rights are a much better source of legal morality than Christianity and the bible) and I don't care how many Christians I piss off from saying that.
Well, I'm not necessarily pissed off from you saying that. Everyone has a right to free thought, and everyone has reasons for their opinions. 
What I saw in what you said however is a lack of understanding of Christianity, as well as the U.S. Constitution. 

1. Firstly, God doesn't send people to hell. If you look at the Christian Doctrine, it says we are all sinners, and doers of evil. Evil according to Christianity is purely the absence of God, and Hell is purely separation from God. So, when we do evil, we are further and further separating ourselves from God.

Now we have this problem. Because no one (not one) is good, and we all do evil, so therefore we are all in some way shape or form, separated from God. So, we are all on our way to Hell.

The Mirical of Christianity is:
God loved us so much, that he sent down his son in the form of a man (in order to keep covenant relationship with humanity) to live a sinless life (to be the intercessor between good (God) and man). Then die a painful agonizing death, suffering not only physical pain, but spiritual pain, in taking all past, present, and future sins of all people. 

And it is a beautiful contrast between Jesus (who is all good) taking the punishment of man (flawed). It is almost unfair. But it shows God's mercy.


2. Secondly you said:
the constitution and the bill of rights are a much better source of legal morality than Christianity and the bible
But you fail to understand that these legal documents were based off of Judeo Christain values

So, the values in these documents had a source, and the source is  the Bible. 
So, you actually do base your source of morality on a document that is based off of the values of the Bible. 


But at the same time, God saying things like, "gays are bad and I don't like them" to me is free speech.  If he advocated the death penalty for gays, I would take issue with it.  But if he says stuff like, "it's an abomination", to me, that's free speech.
No where in the Bible will you find God commanding his followers to persecute any group of people. And I use the word persecute for a reason. 

He purely condemns it. 
The Bible teaches that God is a just God, and he alone will have his vengeance, meaning our role as Christians is not to defend God, but to be messengers of his word.


I'm LGBT, but I would rather be called degenerate than burn in hell forever under any circumstances whether LGBT or not.

I hate Christainity more over it's threats of eternal hellfire (if accurate) than I am about any anti alphabet attitudes it may have.
All I can respond to this with, is Jesus loves you and wants you to follow his plan according to his word. 

And I will say, the advocates for Christianity, who use threats as a means to try and convert people to Christ's words are not basing their teachings off of Biblical principles and should not be taken seriously. 

God doesn't threaten anyone either. Again:
We are all doers of Evil. Evil by our own accords = separation from God. Separation from God = Hell. 

So, think of it like this:
Imagine hundreds of people walking off of a cliff's edge. Each step represents a purposeful act of Evil. The cliff's edge represents total separation from God. They are walking away from God. 

Now imagine a man in the crowd (Jesus) stopping people and pleading with them to turn around. Some turn around, others keep going. 
The steps going opposite of the cliff represent dying to your own wants and desires and having faith in the man (Jesus) and turning away from Evil. 



But everyone goes to heaven.  Jesus paid for everyone's sins, so you go to heaven no matter what.
you may say.

Then why do I have to worship God?  I'm going to heaven no matter what by your logic.
The Bible teaches that salvation is based upon faith in Christ alone. 
Now some people might tell themselves," I have faith in Christ, and I'm going to heaven no matter what I do now".
But that is not real faith.

Real faith produces good works. Real faith changes you. 
Having faith in the Bible, means leaving whatever you desire or want in your life now, and dying to yourself (metaphorically of course) and having faith in how Jesus tells us to live our lives. 

For example: If Jesus tells us to help the poor, but we ignore them every time we see them, we don't really have faith in Christ, because if we did, we would be living like Jesus tells us to live. 

Worship is merely an expression of our love for God. That's what God wants, because God doesn't want you to have faith in someone you don't love. Otherwise, it is simply for personal gain.
The Bible teaches that you can know everything there is to know about the Bible, but if you don't have love, you are a (as the Bible puts it) a resounding Gong. An annoying noise. 
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YouFound_Lxam wrote @ TheUnderdog,   What I saw in what you said however is a lack of understanding of Christianity.

This from the same clown that wrote this>>>>   "I do know the scriptures."#69

The whole teaching of  Christianity comes from the very scriptures that  YouFound_Lxam admits to not knowing! ? 

This is typical of many Christians that claim to be devoutly religious and quick to accuse others of being ignorant sinners yet have never read the bible themselves.
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@Tradesecret
For me, love is obeying God and keeping his commandments. Hence:
  1. I don't kill people.
  2. I don't commit adultery.
  3. I don't steal.
  4. I don't desire their goods.
  5. I don't lie about them.
Bullet points 1 to 3 and 5 (excluding 4).  If you need God to tell you these things are immoral to prevent you from doing them (meaning if you didn't believe God existed, then you would do them), I question your morality.  I would hope you don't do these things whether or not you believe in God.

#4; I desire people's goods and that's good.  I see Andrew Tate with millions of dollars and I want to copy what he did.  I desire to have millions of dollars.

I hope God changes his laws.
I don't want God to change his laws. 
It sounds to me like you are justifying a bunch of horrible stuff:


"But it's the Old testament". 
It doesn't matter:


But it was taken out of context
Also irrelevant.  If the bible says a good quote, the Christain accepts it at face value.  If the bible says a bad quote, the Christain argues it's out of context.  Don't work backwards from your conclusion.

 After all, why would you want to spend eternity with God if you hate him?
Because the alternative is being lit on fire for eternity.

Lets just say I would rather be in prison with rapists and murderers than being burnt alive.

The question is who the god who rules?  Democracy means rule by the majority. But in that case, the majority is god. In a dictatorship, it is ruled by the dictator. In socialism it is rule by the elite.   
The majority has power.

But majority rule or God rule.  Which is better?  Every rule supported by the majority there is at least a good argument for.  The majority is more persuadable than the bible.  The majority abolished slavery, marital rape, gave women the right to vote, provided public education, and improved life expectancy as well as reduced more suffering than what the bible gave us.

The majority deserves to rule more than God.

I'm not American - I don't know what the 8th amendment is. 
The 8th amendment forbids cruel and unusual punishment.  If an eternity in hell isn't cruel and unusual punishment, then nothing is.

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@YouFound_Lxam
Evil according to Christianity is purely the absence of God, and Hell is purely separation from God. So, when we do evil, we are further and further separating ourselves from God.
Who created hell?  God did.

But you fail to understand that these legal documents were based off of Judeo Christain values

So, the values in these documents had a source, and the source is  the Bible. 
So, you actually do base your source of morality on a document that is based off of the values of the Bible. 
1st commandment: You must worship God.
3rd commandment: Using the Lord's name in vain is hate speech.
1st amendment: Worship whoever you want.  Hate speech is free speech.

The bible: Welcome strangers into your home.
4th amendment: You should not be forced to welcome troops into your home (and by extension, everyone else).

The bible: God is your government, God is your state, and you should never rebel from your state.  
2nd amendment: A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The bible: Threatens eternal intensity and duration punishment
8th amendment: Forbids cruel and unusual punishment.

The bible: There is one law for all of mankind.
10th amendment: States can make their own laws to an extent.

There are areas of agreement (5th amendment), but the bible and the constitution are very different.

No where in the Bible will you find God commanding his followers to persecute any group of people. And I use the word persecute for a reason. 

Imagine hundreds of people walking off of a cliff's edge. Each step represents a purposeful act of Evil. The cliff's edge represents total separation from God. They are walking away from God. 

Now imagine a man in the crowd (Jesus) stopping people and pleading with them to turn around. Some turn around, others keep going. 
The steps going opposite of the cliff represent dying to your own wants and desires and having faith in the man (Jesus) and turning away from Evil. 

An all powerful and all loving God just would fill the cliff with enough walkable rock to not kill anybody.

 If Jesus tells us to help the poor, but we ignore them every time we see them, we don't really have faith in Christ, because if we did, we would be living like Jesus tells us to live. 
Helping the poor sounds like a left wing idea.  I'm not the biggest fan of wealth redistribution which theocracy would mandate.  Donate if you want, but don't force others to donate.

Socialism sucks!
YouFound_Lxam
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Who created hell?  God did.
Nope. 
Hell is simply defined as complete and total separation from God. 
God cannot create something that does not involve him in any way shape or form.

To imply that God created Hell (God being all Good) would assume that Hell has good in it, which it does not. 

1st commandment: You must worship God.
3rd commandment: Using the Lord's name in vain is hate speech.
1st amendment: Worship whoever you want.  Hate speech is free speech.
Not Judeo-Christian laws. Judeo-Christian values. 

The bible: Welcome strangers into your home.
4th amendment: You should not be forced to welcome troops into your home (and by extension, everyone else).
Does the Bible say you must allow people into your home? No. It is simply a good thing and nice thing to do.
The constitution doesn't ban people from allowing people into their homes either.

The bible: God is your government, God is your state, and you should never rebel from your state.  
2nd amendment: A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Here you are taking a divine law that is based upon God and correlating it with a human-built society. 
That doesn't work.

The Bible actually supports fighting back against oppressive societies. I mean just look at the story of Moses. 

The bible: Threatens eternal intensity and duration punishment
8th amendment: Forbids cruel and unusual punishment.
This is a lack of Biblical understanding. 
God doesn't punish people by sending them to Hell. Again, God can't send people to Hell. He didn't create it. He can't send anyone to a place he didn't have a part in creating. 

Humans send themselves into Hell, by a lack of faith in God, and (for post-Jesus followers of Jesus) denying Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross. 

The bible: There is one law for all of mankind.
10th amendment: States can make their own laws to an extent.
Again, taking a divine law based upon God, and then corelating it with a human-built society. 

Let's look at one these sources shall we:
(Deuteronomy 17:12) states:
"The witnesses’ hands are to be the first in putting him to death, and after that, the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from you."

But if we look at the context the title of this passage is literally:
"The Judicial Procedure for Idolatry"

Do the U.S. laws have the death sentence for certain crimes as well? Yes, they do.
Now this is Old Testament law, which is very harsh as we see it now, but back then it was a harsh world, and they had to do harsher things back then in order to keep peace. We Christians have a new covenant in Christ, and live in a more civilized modern world, and don't have to go about the laws of the Jewish people. 

So, my point is look for context.


An all powerful and all loving God just would fill the cliff with enough walkable rock to not kill anybody.
Clarify what you mean. I don't quite understand this statement. 

Helping the poor sounds like a left wing idea.
No, it's an all-around idea. 
For instance, you could use the "help the poor" card when arguing against immigration for the conservative side. 


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For me, love is obeying God and keeping his commandments. Hence:
  1. I don't kill people. 
  2. I don't commit adultery. 
  3. I don't steal. 
  4. I don't desire their goods. 
  5. I don't lie about them.
Bullet points 1 to 3 and 5 (excluding 4).  If you need God to tell you these things are immoral to prevent you from doing them (meaning if you didn't believe God existed, then you would do them), I question your morality.  I would hope you don't do these things whether or not you believe in God.
I defined what love looks like.  You have yet to do so. Question whatever you want, that's a matter for you. If I didn't believe in God, then I would do whatever would suit my agenda. I certainly wouldn't have any particular love for this world or its inhabitants. If God didn't exist, then morality is whatever I want it to be. And that is entirely consistent with the morality of post-modern philosophy.  The fact people are worried about morality is because they accept that there is right and there is wrong. But that implies a standard that operates outside of humanity.  And the fact that you would hope I would do these things actually reveals that God is true and that you believe in a higher morality. 

#4; I desire people's goods and that's good.  I see Andrew Tate with millions of dollars and I want to copy what he did.  I desire to have millions of dollars.
Andrew Tate deserves to be in prison.  It sounds like - you are a socialist now.  OOH. And that is because you are inconsistent. Above you imply you believe in morality. But now you are saying - whatever it takes. The ends justify the means. To get millions of dollars. 


I hope God changes his laws.
I don't want God to change his laws. 
It sounds to me like you are justifying a bunch of horrible stuff:
It sounds to me like you just don't want to face facts. 

"But it's the Old testament".  
It doesn't matter:

I don't ignore the OT nor am I advocating that you do so. I do say you need to understand what the OT is saying in context.  It was written to people who were living in real times and for a specific purpose. We can glean lessons - but we need to ALWAYS understand the context. 


But it was taken out of context
Also irrelevant.  If the bible says a good quote, the Christain accepts it at face value.  If the bible says a bad quote, the Christain argues it's out of context.  Don't work backwards from your conclusion.
You say irrelevant - but it is relevant.  I don't just quote good quotes. I also quote bad quotes.  I just like to quote the context and the meaning of it. A good example is when in Jeremiah, God says through his prophet - that he knows the plans he has for his people.  I think that quote is ALWAYS taken out of context and that most people have no idea what it is talking about. Most people, including Christians, want to take nice quotes. But that is not my MO. It never has been and it never will be. But context is ABSOLUTELY important.  


 After all, why would you want to spend eternity with God if you hate him?
Because the alternative is being lit on fire for eternity.

Lets just say I would rather be in prison with rapists and murderers than being burnt alive.
That's nonsense and you know it.  And it's just about the weakest excuse I have ever heard. I would kill myself before going to prison. The easy solution to not going to Hell is to simply turn to God.  It's not that hard. And it actually provides you a basis for living in the moral life you so desire. All this talk about dictatorship and elitism is just a smokescreen. God invented Capitalism and is anti-Communist. 


The question is who the god who rules?  Democracy means rule by the majority. But in that case, the majority is god. In a dictatorship, it is ruled by the dictator. In socialism it is rule by the elite.   
The majority has power.
In America and most modern nations, it has some power. But not absolute power.  In America, the elites, the rich and the celebrities have power. Democracy is a facade. 


But majority rule or God rule.  Which is better?  Every rule supported by the majority there is at least a good argument for.  The majority is more persuadable than the bible.  The majority abolished slavery, marital rape, gave women the right to vote, provided public education, and improved life expectancy as well as reduced more suffering than what the bible gave us.
Christianity is the reason we got rid of slavery.  It is the reason we gave women the right to vote. And it is the reason we stopped marital rape. It was Christianity who first gave us public education in the West. And it is Christianity who through Christ has improved life expectancy. And interestingly enough, as we leave our Christian heritage behind, we are losing most of these things.  

The majority deserves to rule more than God.
There is no reason why theocracy can't be a democracy.  God is a good and just ruler.  In France, the people, the majority couldn't even get the law wrong. So when people were convicted innocently, with new evidence, since the people could not be wrong, they were not allowed to appeal.  Napoleonic law code 101. 


I'm not American - I don't know what the 8th amendment is. 
The 8th amendment forbids cruel and unusual punishment.  If an eternity in hell isn't cruel and unusual punishment, then nothing is.
God is not subject to the 8th amendment. If he was, then he wouldn't be God.  Can you define what is cruel and unusual punishment?

And why is Hellfire cruel and unusual? 





Castin
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@TheUnderdog
But at the same time, God saying things like, "gays are bad and I don't like them" to me is free speech.  If he advocated the death penalty for gays, I would take issue with it.  But if he says stuff like, "it's an abomination", to me, that's free speech.
God does advocate the death penalty for homosexual behavior.

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@Castin
People advocate for death penalties.

And then blame it upon a fictional character.


Homosexual behaviour is one of many role play scenarios that result in orgasm and temporary sexual satisfaction.

And then carry on with other stuff, or roll over and go to sleep.


Christianity is one of many established data programmes, based upon a pseudo creation hypothesis and a charismatic charlatan.

Humans are easily programmed with such misinformation.

It's what is referred to as human gullibility.

One downside of the onboard computer.


Though it must be said, that a significant upside is the development of intellectual societies, thereby allowing material evolution to flourish.

Non-sense begets nuclear weapons as it were.


So a nuclear holocaust might be regarded as hell.

But we would know who to blame wouldn't we?
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@TheUnderdog

Tradesecret wrote: But it was taken out of context
Also irrelevant.  If the bible says a good quote, the Christain accepts it at face value.  If the bible says a bad quote, the Christain argues it's out of context.  Don't work backwards from your conclusion.#17

Indeed and when asked then to put a questionable ambiguous bible verse into context 'for clarity' the request is then explained as the reader  - "not being able to understand the original ancient Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic".  I quite like this response to be honest. Because when the Christian uses these excuses, they, in their ignorance do not realize that they have simply rendered  ALL and ANY  bible written in English pointless and redundant and have consigned the bible to the litter bin.



The Underdog @ Tradesecret:  If you need God to tell you these things are immoral to prevent you......

The haughty Christian has always been of the deluded self belief that only  they have the monopoly on morals, truth and honesty. But my challenged to that claim/belief has always been to ask the Christian to name me one moral deed /action that a devout Christian performs that a non-Christian cannot perform? 

I simply find it hard to imagine that every time a Christian performed a moral deed and was thanked for it, that the response would be to the grateful recipient would be " don't thank me, god caused me to do it".




Deb-8-a-bull
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I fucking love thinking bout. 
Religious members in / of a jury. 
And the arguments that can be put forwards to such folks. 

The arguments are the same for non religious members of a  jury
However. 
With religious members in a jury. 
At the end of argument , You just add .
Oh. 
You go?
oh,,,,
And did i happen to mention that the defendant  wanted to do homosexualy sex to me.
I mean with me.  Look i don't know how they do it. . 

Picture the Religious members of the jury seeing a jaywalker .
They wouldn't be to fussed about it right .,
( Max would be $180 fine. ) 

Now Picture em seeing a homosexual jaywalking. 
( thats life without parole if ever i seen it. )


Now picture Religious jury members.  
 A non homosexual  stealing  a  pushbike.  
( Not very menacing right. )  ( there looking at a small fine. ) 

Nowwwwww. 

Picture a religious jury member seeing  a homosexual stealing a push bike. 
The penalty for this one is more straight foward and obvious.  
 
Again ,     CORRECT.  
 ( Thats life without the poss of parole ) 
Any punishment less then this would be immoral. 

HEY DEB ,   
what kunt. 
 You just used morals and laws in the same sentence.  
Ive warned you about this haven't i.
Yes.
butttt im not looking for comparison in em 
I should be allowed to.
Deb.?
Whattttttttttttt ,

Simply Move on. 



Actually, 
Any and every  act " committed " by a homosexual falls under imorral.

Hang on a sec. 

Im trying to picture a religious juror watching a homosexual  jaywalking to save a drowning kid. 
So thats  .
A immoral person doing a moral act.
Hang on
Again . Ill stop you there 
I'm not sure if that would or even could work? 

▪○°•▪○°•▪○°•▪○°•▪○°•▪○°•▪○°•▪○°•▪○•▪○°•▪○°•

Ya gotta think. 
The punishment given to homosexuals for commiting crimes  should be the same as the punishment given to Hetrosexuals for commiting the same crime.

Now If your a Christian.  
( The above works right? ) 

It probably shouldn't but should it. 
Fellas ?  

It prob shouldn't hey. 

☆♧◇♡♤♧◇♡♡♤♧◇♡♤■●■□■●■●■□■▪☆▪☆☆○○○☆☆○▪
Ok get this one. 

That would mean , ( in actual  life.) 
there is no punishment for being gay right? 

That would mean,  ( in after life ) 
There is no punishment for being gay right?  

Ummm,
Yeah but.
But.
NOPE. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRR
FUCK IT. 

I GIVE UP. 

Tis fun but ,
fun thinking that two blokes fucking , messes with systems and religious peoples heads. 
Not only in this life butttttttt. 
The , After ya die life that we live. 
WTF . So thats  A life after your life you now currently live. 

I guess what im trying to say is . 
Ya can't just have homosexual sex without being penalized for it. 

mmmmmm,  Penal eyes .
' shakes head ' 
Fuck , i mean. 


Look Im just gonna PASS. 
Good day guys.
'Plays Pass'  card. 






Deb-8-a-bull
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I know jurors dont judge petty crimes like that. 
Butttttt.
Petty crimes  committed by homosexuals brings things back into play. 



However. 
There is robbery. 
As is there is armed robbery. 
Ha.
Chuckle, chukle. 
Ha. 







Deb-8-a-bull
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Lets say your hetrosexual and commit a crime like armed Rob.
The punishment for this isssssss.

 A small jail cell in wich   3 sometimes 4 blokes are to share . 
So This along with cell size specifications.

Makes the punishment for armed rob is ..
 Forced (  man laying  with / men. ) 
Thats somewhat a little hash isn't it. 

They dont force male homosexual to lay with females do they.


There is an argument against homosexual  somewhere here hey ? 
I wouldn't dare mention it .
But. 
There is one there






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God's poor design caused homosexuals. This is why God lost his God license.
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@TheUnderdog
@BrotherD.Thomas
@Best.Korea
@YouFound_Lxam

TheUnderdog wrote:  Who created hell?  God did.
YouFound_Lxam wrote:  Nope. #19
WRONG!!  AGAIN!!
Like I have to keep reminding you LF_L, you really should read your bible before attempting to insert your own opinions into scripture and present them as bible fact.

The bible says god prepared hell for the Devil and his followers/ sinners. Look it up for yourself.   I'm fed up with you rewriting scripture  to fit your own narrative.



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@TheUnderdog



.
TheUnderdog,

MISS TRADESECRET'S QUOTE THAT YOU SHOULD CALL HER OUT UPON!: "For me, love is obeying God and keeping his commandments"

Uh, okay, then if Miss Tradesecret is a TRUE CHRISTIAN, then she knows there are 613 Commandments within the Bible that have been accepted by Christianity, as shown in the following link:  https://www.the613commandments.com/The-List-of-the-613-Commandments.html

Therefore, ask our #1 Bible STUPID Fool Miss Tradesecret if she has followed to the letter the following commandments as a prerequisite to loving Jesus as God:

1. Murder People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12) 
2. Murder Witches (Exodus 22:18) 
3. Murder Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13) 
4. Murder Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27) 
5. Murder offspring that that attacks their mother or father (Exodus 21:15) 
6. Murder offspring that curse their parents (Leviticus 20:9) 
7. Murder a person if they have sex with an animal (Exodus 22:19) 
8. Murder Nonbelievers of Jesus as God (2 Chronicles 15:12-13) 
9. Murder False Prophets (Deuteronomy 18:20)

Yes, we all know that Miss Tradesecret will become SILENT to the true axioms of the JUDEO-Christian Bible Commandments shown above, and she will then RUN and HIDE once again as expected!  LOL!


NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE MISS TRADESECCRET THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW "ALL OF THE COMMANDMENTS" THAT OUR SERIAL KILLER JESUS HAS SET FORTH WITHIN THE SCRIPTURES, WILL BE ...?

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@Stephen


.
Stephen,

YOUR QUOTE RELATIVE TO THE #2 BIBLE STUPID FOOL "YOUFOUND_LXAM:" "WRONG!!  AGAIN!!Like I have to keep reminding you LF_L, you really should read your bible before attempting to insert your own opinions into scripture and present them as bible fact."

Whats new?  YouFound_Lxam was totally made the Bible Stupid Fool starting BETWEEN my post #105 to #113 as shown below!

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10301/posts/421417
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10301/posts/421438

It is totally embarrassing when pseudo-christians like YouFound_Lxam show their outright BIBLE STUPIDITY to this Religion Forum ad infinitum!!!  At what point do the moderators step in to quash such members like YouFound_Lxam and Miss Tradesecret that are embarrassing this Religion Forum upon the internet because of being so GAWD DAMNED BIBLE STUPID!  ENOUGH!

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