Many Blue States torch "rule of law" to satisfy TDS urges.

Author: Greyparrot

Posts

Total: 66
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10

Key takeaways:

1) Businesses rely on rule of law to have a safe and stable place to do business.
2) State officials have encouraged rogue judges to torch the rule of law by targeting political rivals such as Trump and Musk for victimless process crimes.
3) This sends a signal to all businesses that the "rule of law" only applies to Democrat supporters in those states.
4) O' Leary calls these states "loser states"
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 271
Posts: 7,846
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
Buisnesses have always needed safety and ability to make profit.

Cancel culture and "political buisness" ideology will cause nothing but economical harm.
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,063
3
2
4
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot

Key takeaways:

1) Businesses rely on rule of law to have a safe and stable place to do business.
2) State officials have encouraged rogue judges to torch the rule of law by targeting political rivals such as Trump and Musk for victimless process crimes.
3) This sends a signal to all businesses that the "rule of law" only applies to Democrat supporters in those states.
4) O' Leary calls these states "loser states"
Damn, we can't get a single vast conspiracy past you, you are taking all the fun out of being a member of the deep state.

And I'm on the "World Domination" committee, and it's my turn to have to report back to Soros.

Gee thanks.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 1,700
3
4
8
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
8
-->
@Sidewalker
Nobody thinks all democrats are complicit in the deepstate. Stop straw manning and address the argument. 


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Sidewalker
@WyIted
Uneven political discretion with the law is a feature of a dying civilization, not a bug.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 1,700
3
4
8
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
8
-->
@Greyparrot
Uneven political discretion with the law is a feature of a dying civilization, not a bug.
I wish conservatives were as low class and as right wing as democrats believe they are, because I would love to see the bullshit excuses the left comes up with for their evil in kangaroo courts.
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,063
3
2
4
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot
We rotate assignments at the beginning of the month, in March I'm on the mind control ray gun, and with release 4.3 we can penetrate your tin foil hats. 

By April, you will both be drag queens, and there is nothing you can do to stop us.

Bwaaahahahahaha.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Sidewalker
Beware, the Orangeman cometh.
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,144
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
More nonsense. The judges are following the law. Trump lying about his financial condition is not a “victimless process crime”.

And this isn’t an isolated incident either. Trump has been pushing the legal and ethical boundaries of business his entire career. His Trump University was another example. He lies. He lies all the time. Sometimes his lies are illegal.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 1,700
3
4
8
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
8
Just a coincidence that these things were not crime until democrats got pissed at him
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,144
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@WyIted
 kangaroo courts.
The only kangaroo court in this country is the Supreme Court. The Republican justices are accepting gifts from the wealthy and giving them the rulings they want.

Clarence Thomas got $267,000 from a wealthy businessman to buy an RV. Gee. But you guys can’t stop talking about Hunter Biden.


IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,144
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@WyIted
Just a coincidence that these things were not crime until democrats got pissed at him
More conspiracy theories.

White collar crimes are difficult to uncover and take years to prove. Especially when prosecuting rich people with armies of lawyers.
Lengthy investigations of white collar crime are typical and come years after the crime took place.

The judges can’t hear and rule on cases until the are brought to them.

WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 1,700
3
4
8
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
8
-->
@IwantRooseveltagain
Who is the victim of Trump Valuing Mar a Lago qt 17 million. Which if we look at the fact hunter bidets paintings are selling for $500k why do you think maralago is less valuable than 39 hunter biden paintings. 

But you guys can’t stop talking about Hunter Biden.
I dont usually bring him up. I am more concerned about Biden being on a college's payroll and China coincidentally providing millions in funding to the same school who employ Biden to literally do nothing. Because this is precisely how you would hide payments from the Chinese. You wouldn't find dire t payments. 

I could actually maybe even accept that sort of corruption if his policies were a net benefit to Ameica, but they harm america and democrats gaslight you into thinking that the hunter laptop story was a Russian lie and even pay off cia directors to confirm this as fact and thn say there is no deep state. That government is 100% honest accept for antiestablishment people like Bernie sanders or Donald trump
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@WyIted
Who is the victim of Trump Valuing Mar a Lago at 17 million. 

The Bank at the trial testified that:
1) The Bank made their own assessment of the property
2) the loan was paid back in full
3) The bank made a ton of money from the interest payments
4) The bank would have loved to do business again with Mr. Trump

So yes. A victimless crime.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@WyIted
What the crazy TDS judge was suggesting was that every real estate loan applicant should always use the valuation of the tax collector's assessment over a bank assessors valuation. If that was the case, either literally nobody would be able to secure a loan to purchase real estate, leading to a massive market undervaluation, or the property tax rates would have to drop significantly to compensate for an accurate market tax assessment in line with the same market value an interested bank would assess.

No matter which way you look at this, it's a clusterfuck decision  that will have lasting damage on the New York real estate market.

This is such a classic "baby with the bathwater" moment that brings to light the horror dystopia TDS has the potential to create.
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,063
3
2
4
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot
Beware, the Orangeman cometh.
Beware, I'm a 33rd degree Mason, that means I could zap your ass with one of our Jewish Space Lasers any time I want.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
And this is why we can't have nice things.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,300
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@WyIted
Just a coincidence that these things were not crime until democrats got pissed at him
No, it wasn't a coincidence. When you decide to run for public office your life along with every secret you've ever tried to hide becomes a matter of public interest. Turns out that prosecutors have a much harder time turning a blind eye to your crimes when every detail of them is printed on the front page on the New York Times. There is nothing about this that is ominous or difficult to foresee.
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,144
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
TDS? That sounds a lot like HDS back in the 1930s. I’m sure it will all work out just fine though. Germany had a slight set back but they’re doing fine now!
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,920
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
Turns out that prosecutors have a much harder time turning a blind eye to your crimes when every detail of them is printed on the front page on the New York Times.
Except if you're named Clinton or Biden. Then it's easy. You can even do an investigation and conclude all the elements of the crime exist but you're not charging "cause you know, the thing".

HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,901
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
1) Businesses rely on rule of law to have a safe and stable place to do business.
this is true. no one disputes that. these cases have been enforcing the law to make sure businesses have a safe place to do business. O'Leary has got awful takes on this. I saw one where he talked about Trump's case and he basically admitted that all developers (including himself) commit numerous crimes and would flee the state to hide their crimes.

2) State officials have encouraged rogue judges to torch the rule of law by targeting political rivals such as Trump and Musk for victimless process crimes.
These are not victimless crimes. Trump defrauded lots of people. But the estimate I saw said his fraud cost the banks that loaned him money like 100 million dollars. His lies got them to give him better terms on the loans, so they made less money. If he had been honest, they would have charged him more interest. And Musk didn't tell the shareholders that he had picked his own compensation and the board just rubber stamped whatever he picked. It is entirely possible they would have pushed back on the compensation packaged if they had known the board did no negotiation at all. 

3) This sends a signal to all businesses that the "rule of law" only applies to Democrat supporters in those states.
No, it sends a signal that the law sometimes applies to billionaires and that the republicans are furious about that. 

4) O' Leary calls these states "loser states"
I'm sure he does. Because, as he admitted in interviews, he commits many of the same crimes as trump. And he doesn't want anyone enforcing these laws because it could hurt him too. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Post 14 debunked all your talking points, so no need to expand on post 14.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,901
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
The Bank at the trial testified that:
1) The Bank made their own assessment of the property
they also testified that they relied heavily on the information provided by trump. 

2) the loan was paid back in full
no one is claiming it wasn't. That is a pointless thing to say. 

3) The bank made a ton of money from the interest payments
no one is disputing they made money. that is a pointless thing to say.

4) The bank would have loved to do business again with Mr. Trump
of course they said that. They can make more money off of him. They can't get the money that he already defrauded them out of. So they said the thing that might lead to more money. And that doesn't change the facts of the case at all. He still defrauded them. 

So now that I have responded to your points, let me clarify. Trump cost them around 100 million dollars. Your points didn't even attempt to address that point. If he had told the truth, they would have 100 million more than they have now. That means they are a victim of his fraud. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
they would have 100 million more than they have now.
Unlikely, as if their own internal bank assessment was 100 million dollars higher than a rival bank's assessor, they would have probably been 300 million dollars poorer. All banks do their own assessment. Negotiations always start on extremes until a price is agreed upon between the buyer and the seller, otherwise most trades could never happen. The idea that Trump should not negotiate because to do so would be fraudulent is something out of a communist manifesto and a price fixing how-to guide.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,901
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Unlikely, as if their own internal bank assessment was 100 million dollars higher than a rival bank's assessor
you're misunderstanding me. I don't know the details of the loans off hand, so I will make this up to highlight what I mean. Let's say trump wants to borrow 100 million dollars. He fills out forms with the bank that says he owns 1 billion worth of property. Since his net worth is so much higher than the amount of the loan, they offer him good terms. a low interest rate. But Trump is lying. His actual net worth is more like 500 million. If the bank had known his actual net worth, then they would have assessed this as a more risky loan and charged him a higher interest rate. Over years and years and across multiple loans, the difference in interest rate he was charged added up to 100 million dollars that he "saved" and the banks lost out on. This is how he defrauded them and they lost so much money.

The idea that Trump should not negotiate because to do so would be fraudulent is something out of a communist manifesto and a price fixing how-to guide.
no one has ever said trump can't or shouldn't negotiate. But you can't negotiate by lying on official financial records. If you tell a bank you have a billion dollars and only have 500 million, you are a much greater risk of defaulting on the loan than they realize. They have the legal right to know how much money you have before they loan you money. That is the law he broke (among many others), and why he is being fined. But the trial compounded his errors. He doesn't even acknowledge that what he did is wrong. He made it clear that he thinks what he did was "perfect", which highly suggests he will do it again if he isn't punished. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
 He fills out forms with the bank that says he owns 1 billion worth of property. Since his net worth is so much higher than the amount of the loan, they offer him good terms. a low interest rate.
Have you ever gone to a bank for a loan? Especially today in such a very tight lending market? There is zero chance such a scenario could go down as you describe.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,901
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
 He fills out forms with the bank that says he owns 1 billion worth of property. Since his net worth is so much higher than the amount of the loan, they offer him good terms. a low interest rate.
Have you ever gone to a bank for a loan? Especially today in such a very tight lending market? There is zero chance such a scenario could go down as you describe.
ok, a couple of things.

1) trump isn't like you or me. He is a billionaire and it is his company applying for the loans. The loan process for him is not the same as the same process they would follow for you. 

2) these loans are all from years ago. They aren't in the last few years. He has been doing this for decades. 

3) the ways in which he lied are harder to prove than if you lied to a bank. Like, how do you establish how much mar-a-lago is worth? It is a much harder question to answer than "how much is in your bank account" or "how much is your single family home worth". 

4) there isn't any doubt that he did these things. So saying there is zero chance that it happened is incredibly foolish because it is documented. For example, trump filled out a form saying his own apartment in new york (the one he lived in) was 30,000 square feet. He then used an estimate of how much a 30,000 square foot apartment would cost as it's value. His apartment is actually 11,000 square feet. He triple it's size, and therefore it's value, in legal documents. There is no denying that is fraud. He did it with all his other properties too, but that one is the most open and shut case as far as I am concerned.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,070
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
I would agree if Trump did that with a federal bank, or if he was filling out a welfare application, it would be fraudulent, because the federal government rarely ever cares about due diligence and internal assessments. But we are talking about a private seller of loans who has every responsibility to assess their own value because they would be out of business if they did not. Imagine being a pawn shop owner and suing every person coming in the door for fraud because they asked for more than what their item was worth. Literally nobody would ever visit that shop ever again. And O' Leary is right, not a single buyer would now dare to walk into the pawn shop of real estate banks in New York now that it is open season on non-establishment political supporters.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,901
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
But we are talking about a private seller of loans who has every responsibility to assess their own value because they would be out of business if they did not.
that is not how the law works. You are not allowed to lie in these documents. It is a crime. There is a warning on each and everyone one of these documents trump and his business signed that says that it is true to the best of their knowledge. Signing that it is true, when you know it is not is a crime. It is not optional to fill these in accurately. It is not a "negotiating tactic" to lie on these forms. 

And O' Leary is right, not a single buyer would now dare to walk into the pawn shop of real estate banks in New York now that it is open season on non-establishment political supporters.
Kevin O'Leary is talking out of his ass because he is likely guilty of the same crimes. If we were talking about small errors, then there wouldn't be an issue. Property is hard to value. It could be worth 20% less than you think. It could be 30% more. It's hard to say without actually selling it. If that was the margin of error here, it wouldn't have been prosecuted. The reason it was, is that the lies are HUGE. Like saying your apartment is 3 times bigger and 3 times more valuable than it is. Or saying mar-a-lago is 10 times more valuable than it is (which trump also did). And it's not like these lies had no impact. They cost banks around 100 million dollars. These are serious financial crimes that have been going on for decades. If companies (like banks or insurance companies) want to be able to do business properly, they need to know roughly what things are worth. That is why what trump did is illegal. He prevented them from being able properly assess the risk they were taking. That is bad for business. But he did it anyway to illegally benefit his own business. 
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,920
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@HistoryBuff
3) the ways in which he lied are harder to prove than if you lied to a bank. Like, how do you establish how much mar-a-lago is worth? It is a much harder question to answer than "how much is in your bank account" or "how much is your single family home worth". 
Yea, almost like it's not lying to pick a number on the high end of plausibility like everyone else in the universe does....


that is not how the law works.
You are profoundly ignorant of the law.


You are not allowed to lie in these documents. It is a crime.
That's why Fani Willis is going to jail along with Hilary Clinton.... oh wait... no "lying" suddenly means something quite different for those types.


Or saying mar-a-lago is 10 times more valuable than it is (which trump also did).
False


They cost banks around 100 million dollars.
False