I have spent lot of years mainly figuring out what myself and this reality is all about.

Author: 3RU7AL

Posts

Total: 124
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
because a principle is a description of something and not a thing in and of itself
a principle is not a desription.
Principle: That from which anything proceeds in any way whatsoever.

That "that" is a thing. Like a point is the principle of a ray, your soul is the principle of self movement.
the word you're looking for here is "origin"
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
organic chemistry
That means everything that is part of our life must be organic.

Abstracts concepts, a part of our intellectual life are not organic. You cannot touch them. So there must be something more than just organic chemistry.

Unless you can give me where science has tagged in the brain where concepts themselves are, there is no way around that.
data storage can be identified
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
the word you're looking for here is "origin"
Origin is a type of principle. It is not the only kind of principle.
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
data storage can be identified
Is that the same as the concept itself? Nope...
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
Is that the same as the concept itself? Nope...
do you believe that software is magical ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
 soul is the principle of self movement
uncreated and uncaused
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
do you believe that software is magical ?
No.

uncreated and uncaused
I never said that, nor implied it.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
uncreated and uncaused
I never said that, nor implied it.
what motivates the actions of your "soul" ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
do you believe that software is magical ?
No.

abstract concepts are simply data

stored in your brain
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
what motivates the actions of your "soul" ?
Your brain produces an image and the soul takes that, unites it to itself, thus giving us understanding (i.e. intellectual knowledge) and from that the will chooses to act or not to act.

I just summarized in one sentence a whole work by Thomas Aquinas called De Anima.

I obviously left out alot. I have given you the name of the work. It was first written in Latin, so if you know latin it is pretty easy. You can find it on the internet. There are translations into other common languages though.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
Your brain produces an image and the soul takes that, unites it to itself, thus giving us understanding (i.e. intellectual knowledge) and from that the will chooses to act or not to act.
it sounds like you're just moving the motive to another layer

the original questions are not answered by simply adding another layer

is the "spirit" motivated by its design AND its experiences ?
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
is the "spirit" motivated by its design AND its experiences ?
A soul does what it does. Its "motivation" as you call it ( I would call it "what it does") is to know and to will. It is designed to know and to will. nothing more.

The soul does not have "experiances" as I think you mean it here. Experiances are something our brains and our bodies have. Our soul simply knows and either wills or does not will to act upon the concept that arises from the image in the mind which has its principle or origin in the senses.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
A soul does what it does. Its "motivation" as you call it ( I would call it "what it does") is to know and to will. It is designed to know and to will. nothing more.

The soul does not have "experiances" as I think you mean it here. Experiances are something our brains and our bodies have. Our soul simply knows and either wills or does not will to act upon the concept that arises from the image in the mind which has its principle or origin in the senses.
ok, so your "soul" doesn't have experiences

which means

it can never learn anything


and it just randomly picks things with no rhyme or reason


it is not an instrument of god

and it is not controlled by your human body


seems like a loose-cannon
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
it can never learn anything
Not true.

like I said, it uses the image the brain makes to understand deeper what the thing is. That is not by definition an experiance. But it does not mean the soul can never learn.

What the soul learns is what the thing is. 

All you have asserted here is that experiance is the only way to know something. Not true. This is the problem I have with the "enlightenment" philosophy that said that. It is simply not true and the very existence of reason proves it.

and it is not controlled by your human body
Yeah, you are right! It controls the human body.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
What the soul learns is what the thing is. 

so it learns things but it doesn't have experiences


just say "the soul is an inscrutable black-box" that animates human flesh


and is also not controlled by or able to be predicted by YHWH
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
just say "the soul is an inscrutable black-box" that animates human flesh
That would be to say that we know nothing about it. That is not true. I would be lying if I said that.

and is also not controlled by or able to be predicted by YHWH
I never said it was controlled by YHWH, nor do I think it is.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
just say "the soul is an inscrutable black-box" that animates human flesh
That would be to say that we know nothing about it. That is not true. I would be lying if I said that.

saying "it's a principle" doesn't mean anything

what else do you know about "souls" ?
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
it uses the image the brain makes to understand deeper what the thing is
I said that.

 It is designed to know and to will.
I said that as well.

...soul takes that (image from the brain), unites it to itself, thus giving us understanding (i.e. intellectual knowledge) and from that the will chooses to act or not to act.
And that as well.

It controls the human body.
I also said that.

Clearly I said more than simply it was a principle. And yes, to say it is a principle does mean something. I am not using meaningless words here.


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
do you think it would be fair to say "souls" accumulate and process data based on their original design specifications ?
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
"souls" accumulate and process data based on their original design specifications ?
That is not really the language I would use. You can say that as long as you understand that The data is not something material.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
That is not really the language I would use. You can say that as long as you understand that The data is not something material.
sure, "souls" store data differently than brains and computers

i don't care exactly how they do it

if they have a nature and they accumulate data

then they are functionally indistinguishable from my description of a human mind
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
then they are functionally indistinguishable from my description of a human mind
Except for the fact they deal with different things to produce different things and each has a different purpose.

The soul of a person is different from the human mind.

And no, I still do not think functunionality determines whatness.

To say that because we can see a very general similiarity in functionality imlies that we are talking about the same thing is absurd. Youy might as well say that an axe and a blender are the same thing because they chop and slice. or that "a river and a flood and the ocean and a lake are the same thing because they have flowing water."

To say that "well both have a nature and accumalate data therefore the same thing" is to say that "computers are the same thing as human minds, and souls and animals and plants"

One will very quickly fall into absurdities if this is his process of thought.



3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
The soul of a person is different from the human mind.
sure, we agree on that

one is quantifiable and the other is not
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
And no, I still do not think functunionality determines whatness.
i don't care what you call it

i only care about function
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
i only care about function
Ok... Well I certainly care more about the whole rather than just its functions.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
To say that because we can see a very general similiarity in functionality imlies that we are talking about the same thing is absurd. Youy might as well say that an axe and a blender are the same thing because they chop and slice. or that "a river and a flood and the ocean and a lake are the same thing because they have flowing water."
i never said it was the same "thing"

i'm saying the same logical principles apply to both

each has a nature presumably engineered by the creator

each accumulates data and produces output that is some combination of its design + accumulated data + some small measure of random noise = 100%
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
One will very quickly fall into absurdities if this is his process of thought.
not absurdities

a rock has a nature and accumulates data and exhibits behavior that is exactly the sum of these things
MAV99
MAV99's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 117
1
2
5
MAV99's avatar
MAV99
1
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
a rock has a nature and accumulates data and exhibits behavior that is exactly"the sum of these things
"A rock accumulates data and exhibits behavior..."  You need to explain that to me. How in the world does a rock exhibit bahavior? What do you mean by that?
"...the sum of these things." those are the data, design, and random noise?

What about purpose? Is that in your equation?

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
What about purpose? Is that in your equation?
we're still talking about function
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,791
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@MAV99
"A rock accumulates data and exhibits behavior..."  You need to explain that to me. How in the world does a rock exhibit bahavior? What do you mean by that?
a rock was formed somehow

right

different types of rock are identified by how they were formed

how the rock was formed dictates its properties

how the rock was formed dictates its shape size hardness consistency and location

the rock contains information about how it was formed and where it is from

even the geographic location of ancient pottery (and rocks) can be identified by its faint magnetic field

over time

the rock accumulates experiences

changes in temperature

erosion

physical damage

and usually they get smaller and smaller until finally they end up as gravel and then sand or dust

rocks have a life cycle