Pascal's wager

Author: TheGreatSunGod

Posts

Total: 34
Topic's author
#1
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
How do atheists even respond to this argument?

All religions so far teach very similar values. The religions which have plenty of proof and miracles dont even favor atheists.

Being an atheist means that at best, you become nothing when you die, or second best, you miss out on rewards after death, or worst, you suffer after death.

Religious person, on the other hand, have much better success rate with all known religions.

At best, they get eternal pleasure. Second best, they end up just like atheists. But never ever worse than atheists, assuming religious follow rules of their own religion.
Topic's author
#2
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Shila
For you, as promised. I know you really like Pascal's wager a lot.
#3
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,750
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@TheGreatSunGod

General anesthetic shows that there is no afterlife. When your brain is gone, you are gone.
#4
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,750
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Shila

For you, as promised. I know you really like FLRW's wagger a lot.
#5
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,542
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@TheGreatSunGod
For you, as promised. I know you really like Pascal's wager a lot.
It’s an appeal to people’s logic.
Topic's author
#6
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@FLRW
General anesthetic shows that there is no afterlife
There is. You disappear and appear again in new life. I cant wait to wake up in Hell.

#7
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,750
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@TheGreatSunGod

Well Satan does give everyone free Tesla's in Hell.
Topic's author
#8
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@FLRW
In Hell as it is on his Earth. But Hell is even better now. I heard everyone gets bunch of sex demons to fuck.
#9
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,542
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@TheGreatSunGod
In Hell as it is on his Earth. But Hell is even better now. I heard everyone gets bunch of sex demons to fuck.
 Muslim martyrs get 72 virgins in paradise.
#10
RemyBrown
RemyBrown's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 645
3
2
6
RemyBrown's avatar
RemyBrown
3
2
6
-->
@TheGreatSunGod
How do atheists even respond to this argument?
Homer's wager.


Note; the next pope will probably be funnier than the last one because blacks from the south side of Chicago are funny (although not as funny as me).
#11
AdaptableRatman
AdaptableRatman's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 222
1
3
5
AdaptableRatman's avatar
AdaptableRatman
1
3
5
-->
@TheGreatSunGod
False.

Fake believers go to Hell.

PW fails.
#12
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 78
0
1
5
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
5
-->
@TheGreatSunGod
What if the parameters for pascals wager were inversed?

For example, let us say that in Islam the worshipping of false Gods is a terrible sin, worse than being an atheist. That if it so happened that the God of Islam, Allah, existed, you would be punished if you were atheist, but still have a chance to go to heaven. But if you were a worshipper of a false God (or Gods) you would suffer eternally in hell.

And I do not know as much about Christianity as I do about Islam, but let us say for the sake of argument that such is the case for Christianity as well, so for example, if Christianity were the one true religion, but you were a Muslim, you'd suffer worse than if you were an atheist. (And yes, I know the God for both religions is the same God, but let's set that aside for now for the sake of argument)

Under such a scenario, while being without religion means that you will suffer under the case that *any* God exists. You will suffer even worse than that (and suffer eternally, the opposite of being rewarded eternally) for picking the *wrong* God if either of the Gods I described is the one that exists. And be rewarded eternally for picking the *correct* God if the God you worshipped is the one that exists. (and is one to reward worship)
Topic's author
#13
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
For example, let us say that in Islam the worshipping of false Gods is a terrible sin, worse than being an atheist
Not really. Plus, with Islam and Christianity having basically same moral standards, atheists by disobeying one disobey both. And atheists are indeed more likely to sin. Especially sexual sins which are so strongly condemned.
Topic's author
#14
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
@adaptable

False.

Fake believers go to Hell.

PW fails
Stop injecting your desires in Christianity. If fake believers go to Hell, then so do atheists who commit more sin.
#15
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 78
0
1
5
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
5
-->
@TheGreatSunGod
Not really. Plus, with Islam and Christianity having basically same moral standards, atheists by disobeying one disobey both. And atheists are indeed more likely to sin. Especially sexual sins which are so strongly condemned.
I am not talking about how likely a Muslim, a Christian and an Atheist are to obey or disobey the various tenets of Islam or Christianity. I am speaking purely and solely specifically about God's orders against us worshipping other Gods.

Let us say for the sake of argument that, in the hypothetical scenario I proposed, being for example a Christian in a world where Allah existed, even if it led you to obey more of Allah's overall tenets as compared to the atheist, Allah would consider you to have sinned worse than the atheist because of the sin of worshipping a false God despite everything else you've done, and the same would be true if you were a Muslim in a world where the Christian God existed.


Now I want to be clear off topic that outside of this hypothetical in real life, it is better to for example be a Christian in a world where Allah exists, as Allah considers Christians and Jewish people as people of the book, and they are not in error of following a false God. So if hypotheticals are difficult for you, you can in the scenario I proposed replace one of the two Gods with Zeus, and say for the sake of argument that Zeus also will consider you an offender deserving of eternal punishment if you worship a God other than him regardless of how many of his tenets and orders you obeyed.
Topic's author
#16
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
Allah would consider you to have sinned worse than the atheist because of the sin of worshipping a false God 
This is just an assumption. Atheist by definition also commits this sin, because atheist just worships things different from Gods instead. Add other sins to that, and it doesnt look good.
#17
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 78
0
1
5
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
5
Am I being trolled here? Not only are you saying atheists by definition commit worship, but also you say "This is just an assumption" and follow it up with an assumption. No offense intended but do you read what you write before you click 'Create Post'?

Let's put an end to the hypothetical then since clearly you lack imagination, 
Additionally, if one is the type of Christian that considers Jesus as God and/or the son of God, in a world where the God who wrote the Quran exists, such a person would be committing Shirk. To my knowledge this includes at the very least Catholics.

I wasn't making an assumption there, don't accuse me of making assumptions, especially when you have little to no basis for that.

Topic's author
#18
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
atheists by definition commit worship
Worship of Earthly goods.

Topic's author
#19
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
"The term shirk in Islam is used to refer to idolatry or polytheism, which means deification, or worship of deity, gods, or anything other than Allāh."

Money and Earthly pleasures are atheist's deities now.

So yeah, if giving higher importance to something different than Allah is a sin, atheist commits it.
#20
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 78
0
1
5
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
5
-->
@TheGreatSunGod
"The term shirk in Islam is used to refer to idolatry or polytheism, which means deification, or worship of deity, gods, or anything other than Allāh."

Money and Earthly pleasures are atheist's deities now.
These are Idolators, not atheists, get your definitions straight. And don't say "There isn't a difference". The people the sahaba fought and/or educated in Mecca and Medina were not atheists, they were people committing actual idolatry, actual worship of statues and the material, not whatever it is you're trying to attribute to atheists.

So yeah, if giving higher importance to something different than Allah is a sin, atheist commits it.
Like this for example, you make the loosest of connections and call it """worship"""
Topic's author
#21
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
And don't say "There isn't a difference". 
So you think Allah prefers atheist who worships himself and Earthy goods over a Christian?

You actually think atheist doesnt commit a sin when he replaces Allah with something else?

Sounds like you are putting words in Allah's mouth now. I dont know why would you do that.
Topic's author
#22
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
The people the sahaba fought and/or educated in Mecca and Medina were not atheists, they were people committing actual idolatry, actual worship of statues and the material
Are you sure it wasnt self-defense there instead?

#23
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 78
0
1
5
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
5
-->
@TheGreatSunGod
Strawman, and I'll correct you. I think if the God of Islam existed, and he were truthful, he would as he said not forgive the attributing of Jesus Christ with being God.

You are the one putting words in my mouth. You claim that I say God prefers people who worship themselves and Earthly goods, with the basis being your claim that atheists worship themselves and Earthly goods, a claim that you haven't backed up.

I think you're completely missing the point that Atheists don't have a "God" or any kind of object of worship in their hearts at all. Atheists are by definition faithless.


Are you sure it wasnt self-defense there instead?
The prophet Mohammed was forcibly driven out of Mecca after he started preaching and they also attempted to assassinate him.
Topic's author
#24
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
 I think if the God of Islam existed, and he were truthful, he would as he said not forgive the attributing of Jesus Christ with being God
Sure, give us the quote from Quran. Forgiveness and treatment arent same things. Do you think God would forgive atheist who did many sins over a Christian who followed many more laws of Islam?

You are the one putting words in my mouth. You claim that I say God prefers people who worship themselves and Earthly goods, with the basis being your claim that atheists worship themselves and Earthly goods, a claim that you haven't backed up
The Quran talks a lot about people who consider others equal to Allah as very bad. Now, atheist who gives more importance to Earthly goods over Allah is considering something more important than Allah, an even worse sin then. Do you think atheists dont place value on anything then? Is that a silly claim you will stick to?


I think you're completely missing the point that Atheists don't have a "God" or any kind of object of worship in their hearts at all. Atheists are by definition faithless
Atheists dont have preferences? Atheists dont give importance to anything? Pick what you want to defend there then.
Topic's author
#25
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
The prophet Mohammed was forcibly driven out of Mecca after he started preaching and they also attempted to assassinate him
So the fight was self defense rather than just based on religion, making your argument irrelevant then.

#26
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 78
0
1
5
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
5
So preference and importance is worship? You've been unreasonably stretching and reaching since the beginning of this convo. What I am saying is Atheist don't have anything that they put under such a high regard as I put God.

Even if, let's say for example, money is the most important thing to them. And God is the most important thing to me. They don't regard money in nearly as high a regard as I do God. In fact, it might even be the case that money is as important to me as it is to them.

For me, God is such a high enough being as to merit worship, for idolators, material things are of a high enough value to them for them to worship, for atheists there is no such thing, not even what is comparatively most important to them. Another way to put it is material things are not as important to atheists as God is important to me. But it can be the case that material things are as important to idolators as God is important to me.


Sure, give us the quote from Quran. Forgiveness and treatment arent same things. Do you think God would forgive atheist who did many sins over a Christian who followed many more laws of Islam?
I already did.
https://islam4u.pro/blog/shirk-in-the-quran/#Shirk_in_the_Quran_God_Does_not_Forgive_One_who_Does_Shirk

Whether or not God would forgive an atheist depends on that individual, depends on whether or not that atheist repents and sees the light in his future. The atheist has the potential to be forgiven depending on what he does next, the mushrik has no such potential.


So the fight was self defense rather than just based on religion, making your argument irrelevant then.
Explain your logic.
And while I am at it, why are self-defense and based on religion mutually exclusive?
#27
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,542
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Hero1000
The prophet Mohammed was forcibly driven out of Mecca after he started preaching and they also attempted to assassinate him.
He is proof God protected the prophet.
Topic's author
#28
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
So preference and importance is worship?
You can google definition of worship. Hint: there is more than one.

Atheist don't have anything that they put under such a high regard as I put God
Assumption.

They don't regard money in nearly as high a regard as I do God
Assumption.

it might even be the case that money is as important to me as it is to them
Assumption.

Whether or not God would forgive an atheist depends on that individual, depends on whether or not that atheist repents and sees the light in his future
This is nonsense argument. We are talking about people who die as atheists here.

The atheist has the potential to be forgiven depending on what he does next, the mushrik has no such potential
So now you pretend to know what Allah thinks here.
Topic's author
#29
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
I already did.
Your link talks of partners in general there. So any thing atheist places above Allah likewise cannot be forgiven then.
Topic's author
#30
TheGreatSunGod
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 912
3
4
5
TheGreatSunGod's avatar
TheGreatSunGod
3
4
5
-->
@Hero1000
And while I am at it, why are self-defense and based on religion mutually exclusive?
Unless you are arguing that muslims must exterminate all other religions, then it is based on self defense, and must be too.