Gameshow Mafia Endgame

Author: Lunatic

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#121
Mharman
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
we have a community problem where mods don’t wanna clarify role interactions cause they don’t wanna fall victim to mod psyche cheese.

But the only reason mods can get psyched by something is because players tend to ask about interactions that mods aren’t ready to answer, bc they haven’t thought about said interactions, which players can pick up on and make judgment calls

I want to create a massive list of roles that can appear in my games, with them classified in a specific way that clarifies their interactions with other classes of roles. Then I want to persuade other mods to adopt the standards

That way, if a player is unsure of how a role will work, they can look at the role by its type and figure out the interaction without having to ask the mod… or the mod can just figure out the answer from it as well
#122
Savant
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@ILikePie5
I mean tbf we also used mod info to get to the Austin v Moozer counterclaim and that turned out to be a total red herring.
#123
ILikePie5
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@Savant
I mean tbf we also used mod info to get to the Austin v Moozer counterclaim and that turned out to be a total red herring.
Yep, I know. That’s why Earth was at the top of my list, and why it would’ve been good to have your role used
#124
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@ILikePie5
would’ve been good to have your role used
Yeah but only when you were still alive lol
#125
Mharman
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
I know players already somewhat understand that different types of roles work in different ways (most know that passive roles can’t be roleblocked or redirected), but there are many more cases where players and mods don’t know… this is made worse because it varies from mod to mod.
#126
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@ILikePie5
Earth was at the top of my list
Wait for town or scum and why? What was the connection to the counterclaim?
#127
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@Savant
I was being town read by almost everyone. I am the free townie.
It still shrinks the scum pool
#128
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@WyIted
It still shrinks the scum pool
It's not like I got mislynched. I could still use my role and then Earth, banana, Mharman get lynched. Then town still uses. In this case it might work because Pie was still alive to catch Mikal but that's more of a coincidence than anything.
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#129
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
I worded that specific question in that specific way to throw Lunatic off too, before I posted that read on Mikal. He refused to give a clear answer when I got more specific.
I know. Don’t know why though. Cause it’s a question based on flipped roles.

Mikal was flipping out because the answers I was giving were screwing him over or something so I started to be more vague
#130
AdaptableRatman
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@Mharman
The single easiest way to fix this is to force ALL Mod Qs to be private with 0 exception.

Even asking mod about a vote count etc.

This makes everyone equally avle to be honest or lie about how they went about getting game-related info and secures against mass-reveal psyche slips as they would be banned to.quote the mod's DM verbatim most than 1 word and even then it would be illicit PM analysis.
#131
ILikePie5
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@Lunatic
Mikal was flipping out because the answers I was giving were screwing him over or something so I started to be more vague
That’s his issue. He should’ve asked you how stuff would work beforehand
#132
Mikal
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@ILikePie5
I did there was a miscommunication. I asked him was he going to give information about roles and stuff and he said no but i think he meant about game concepts not interactions. So I had already full claimed around that. Told him to do whatever but if he could be vague it would be helpful since I built a claim and plan around that. All in all it was a good game. People find reasons to complain and even if I had died off that’s I still think Mharm would have killed savant. 
#133
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@ILikePie5
Interestingly, looking back at probabilities they were actually a bit better than I thought and actually slightly under confident. Like if I thought someone had 50% odds of being scum they actually had more like 52% odds. If I thought someone had 90% odds of being town it was more like 92%. Issue though is that being 50/50 on who scum is just isn't good enough to win consistently. With the odds I had on scum, I think I did realize I would lose the majority of the time, but around day 3 I figured my probabilities weren't going to shift enough to change PoE. So I got lazy and I think I paired Mharman and banana a bit too easily without being as meticulous as I'd been up to that point. A lot of preventable mistakes, but I don't know that preventing them would have been enough to win the game. I'd need like a 28 percentage point shift on Mikal, and even seeing that contradiction with Luna might not have swayed me by 28 pts.
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#134
Lunatic
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@Mharman
The idea is that the survivor will take the side of whoever is doing better, so they count as 0.5 scum

1. There was no third party here
2. That shouldn’t be assumed in general as historically 3p takes the side of town

#135
Mharman
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@Lunatic
I know there wasn’t a tp this game. And I can think times of where the survivor didn’t help town. It more or less comes down what the survivor feels is optimal. I don’t entirely hate 8v3s, I just prefer 8v2+1s.

Your setup is your choice. I’m not gonna quit ur games bc I disagree with something lol 
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#136
Lunatic
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I know there wasn’t a tp this game. And I can think times of where the survivor didn’t help town. It more or less comes down what the survivor feels is optimal. I don’t entirely hate 8v3s, I just prefer 8v2+1s.
Your setup is your choice. I’m not gonna quit ur games bc I disagree with something lol 
The point is I don’t understand your math, telling me we can agree to disagree doesn’t tell me why your way is more balanced. It’s not just you Casey also says the same thing but won’t substantiate it. I know she also thinks 8 v 2 v1 is better balanced I just literally don’t under why. Why is 4 mislynches better than 3 mislynches when 90% of games are balanced around 3 mislynches? I just wanna understand the math I don’t care about agreeing to disagree lol I literally don’t get your point 

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#137
Lunatic
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@Mharman
@Casey_Risk
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#138
Lunatic
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Mharman that game only had three mislynches and you were exhausted by the end. Imagine having to go another day phase there lol
#139
Casey_Risk
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@Lunatic
I'll explain my thoughts more after work 
#140
Mharman
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@Lunatic
the rule i operate with is that town should be able to survive as many mislynches as there are scum. Vaarka taught me that, so I refer to it as Vaarka's Golden Rule (he may have been taught by someone else, but idk who). I taught the concept to Whiteflame and Casey btw

9players, 2 scum. 13 players, 3 scum. 17, 4. So 5,9,13,17,etc is a sequence

in those numbers halfway between numbers in a sequence, I put 0.5 scum, a tp

+1 over any number in the sequence, I give scum a little more power. -1, I give town a little more power. In both cases, I round to the nearest number in the sequence when determining how many many scum i put in the game

It should be noted that the rule isn't rigid. You can balance games in ways where you can break the rule. For me, the rule is just a good framework I like to start with.
#141
Mharman
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@Lunatic
frustrated, not exhausted.

I reset every night phase. I would've been fine.
#142
Mharman
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@Mikal
I'm curious. Did you even try to guess town's hidden agendas?
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#143
Lunatic
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@Mharman
the rule i operate with is that town should be able to survive as many mislynches as there are scum.
Why?

Vaarka taught me that, so I refer to it as Vaarka's Golden Rule (he may have been taught by someone else, but idk who). I taught the concept to Whiteflame and Casey btw
Love Vaarka but he wasn’t known to be an amazing player or anything lol

9players, 2 scum. 13 players, 3 scum. 17, 4. So 5,9,13,17,etc is a sequence
In all of these set ups you still have four mislynches, not to mention potential night kill interference with protection roles, or role stopping roles etc. that’s a lot of reliance on town fvcking up, not to mention games here tend to get POEd very fast via town confirmation etc. accounting for that mafia can play perfectly but still get screwed by POe eventuality.


#144
Mharman
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Why?
Well, town is always gonna turn on themselves throughout the game. And that will usually result in at least one mislynch occurring solely because of poor information. That’s usually a given, a “freebie” if you will (usually happens DP1). Beyond that, if every member of the mafia team is pulling their own weight, they should get one mislynch before going out themselves. There’s obviously going to be some variance from game to game (town could turn on themselves extra hard, or one scum player could carry and lower the burden on teammates) but on average, that should be the expectation.

Ex. 9 players, 7v2: Town freebie is one mislynch, if both scum carry their weight, they secure a mislynch each, for a total of three that wins scum the game.

Same thing with the other increments of +4, starting from 1.

Keep in mind that a mislynch costs town two players, because of night kills.

In all of these set ups you still have four mislynches, not to mention potential night kill interference with protection roles, or role stopping roles etc. that’s a lot of reliance on town fvcking up, not to mention games here tend to get POEd very fast via town confirmation etc. accounting for that mafia can play perfectly but still get screwed by POe eventuality.
9 player 7v2 requires three for scum to win. 13 player 10v3 requires four mislynches. 17 player 13v4 requires five mislynches.

Poe depends on what roles town has and didn’t mislynch. Also depends on fake claims from scum, as well as night actions from both sides, but mostly scum

And as for the reliance on town fucking up, that’s something mafia always has to do anyway. There’s only so many mistakes you can force if you’re scum. At the end of the day, if town gets the calls correct, you just lose. Consider basketball, where you can contest the shot to make things harder for them; if  they keep scoring on jumpers, however, you just lose. C’est la mafia.
#145
Mharman
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@Lunatic
Tagging people is hard for me lol
#146
Mharman
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@Casey_Risk
No need Casey I’ve explained it
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#147
Lunatic
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@Mharman
Ex. 9 players, 7v2: Town freebie is one mislynch, if both scum carry their weight, they secure a mislynch each, for a total of three that wins scum the game.

Same thing with the other increments of +4, starting from 1.

Keep in mind that a mislynch costs town two players, because of night kills.

I think expecting a mafia to be able to succesfully pull off a mislynch is hopeful, but not really representative of the skill level of most members here. Theres a handful of people I would expect to just do the bare minimum of surviving, and not fvcking up a fake claim, let alone anything else. Could be a dart thing though, no offense, we don't have the best players here, not like mafiauniverse, where scum can easily do that type of thing. There is also less chance of role interference in those games since they are generally vanilla heavy. 4 mislynches in general feels like a lot because thats already 4 guaranteed day phases, no accounting for correct lynches by town, so your counting on some pretty lengthy games, and again at that point POE is always going to be a thing where you have multiple town confirmed players by that point and mafia are narrowed down not even due to making mistakes, but not being able to confirm themselves. That why I told casey I can maybe see 4 mislynches being balanced in a game that isn't role heavy, but we simply don't make those types of games on DART.

9 player 7v2 requires three for scum to win. 13 player 10v3 requires four mislynches. 17 player 13v4 requires five mislynches.

Poe depends on what roles town has and didn’t mislynch. Also depends on fake claims from scum, as well as night actions from both sides, but mostly scum
Right, and statistically looking at DART, there are usually 1-4 roles that confirm a player, sometimes more, and those players are not always high priority kill targets when scum have to worry about 1-2 investigation roles at the same time, so realistically from a DART POV, adding more mislynches is going to make it harder on scum who already have a pretty tough job in general. 

And as for the reliance on town fucking up, that’s something mafia always has to do anyway. There’s only so many mistakes you can force if you’re scum. At the end of the day, if town gets the calls correct, you just lose. Consider basketball, where you can contest the shot to make things harder for them; if  they keep scoring on jumpers, however, you just lose. C’est la mafia.
Agreed
#148
Savant
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@Lunatic
Was the thing about the number of responses to the riddle day 1 resolved? Was that just a typo on your part?
#149
Mharman
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@Lunatic
Also, what were the hidden agendas and what did mafia guess?
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#150
Lunatic
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@Savant
Was the thing about the number of responses to the riddle day 1 resolved? Was that just a typo on your part?