Well, mainly it's because God doesn't exist.I just have to wonder why god didn't "act" upon Adam and Eve's children to remove "original sin" from them, thus saving us and everyone else a whole lot of trouble.
The universe demonstrates the majesty and glory of God and teaches us that the reason for it (and us) is that we might know God who has purposed our existence.But you've made not one step toward showing why your version of god is correct and all others are wrong.
This is the point of the whole idea: you just say "God created the universe for the sole purpose of creating people who would say how awesome he is all the time," you have skipped many, many steps and only created more questions. Remember, the bible is the CLAIM, not the evidence.
This is where your god comes from, the bible, it's where his character and all of the quotes you are taking come from.
Of course the bible says god's real, otherwise who cares about the bible. Please feel free, at any point, to demonstrate EVIDENCE that your god's real and your assessments of its purpose are in any way accurate.
For clarity: the bible is not evidence of itself or anything in it. Otherwise, I will start claiming that this world used to be Westeros and you better figure out which of the seven gods of Westeros you worship, because they're real because they're in a book!
What means does Vishnu provide in the writings that are supposedly from such a being? Give me some examples from these writings that have verifiability to them. What is Vishnu if not a personal being, since you refer to Vishnu as an "it."Vishnu demonstrates to humanity that what is made pours forth reasons for it and humanity has understood this since the record of history began. That is why we find most cultures, if not every culture, has a concept of a higher being that they worship. The problem is that if you do not worship Vishnu as it is you worship an idol, a human construct. To avoid this happening the chosen ones believe Vishnu has demonstrated to humanity in its revelation who it is. Thus, as the Bhagavad Gita explains, we who reject Vishnu in our unrighteousness are without excuse.
I just have to wonder why god didn't "act" upon Adam and Eve's children to remove "original sin" from them, thus saving us and everyone else a whole lot of trouble.
I have to wonder which bible verse it was that said "and this original sin shall be commuted onto all people forever until the end of time through the pairs of human chromosomes that won't be discovered for thousands more years." I wonder if CRISPR tech can solve this problem if it exists!
those who don't want to believe will not believe
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous
What means does Vishnu provide in the writings that are supposedly from such a being?
Give me some examples from these writings that have verifiability to them.
What is Vishnu if not a personal being, since you refer to Vishnu as an "it."
List some of the Bhagavad Gita that can be demonstrated by history. What kind of prophecies has come about exactly as written?
HOw is "original sin" which you are born with, a "choice"?He made humanity in His image likeness thus they have the ability to make choices.
How about you just start with why your god is real and the hundreds of other gods aren't.
You say yourself he's only revealed in the bible (which speaks again to the fact that the bible is claim, not evidence), so you don't need the bible for this argument.
All the other ridiculous tripe, like how I can't say something is wrong without borrowing from Christianity, is distraction from this. Keep it simple: what is the evidence that your god is real and, for example, the Greek pantheon isn't? Don't fixate on why the Greek Pantheon is wrong, please demonstrate, again without pointing to the claim as evidence, that your god is real. THat's all I'm asking.
those who don't want to believe will not believeWhat I want to believe has no bearing on anything being true. It's either true or it isn't. Gravity doesn't care if I believe in it.
What means does Vishnu provide in the writings that are supposedly from such a being?Spiritual TRUTH.
Give me some examples from these writings that have verifiability to them.Using modern scientific methods, such as satellite imagery and dating techniques, it can be shown that the ancient statements of the Vedas are factual, not mythical as erroneously propagated. High resolution satellite images have verified descriptions in The Rig Veda of the descent of the ancient Sarasvati River from it's source in the Himalayas to the Arabian Sea. [LINK]What is Vishnu if not a personal being, since you refer to Vishnu as an "it."Why would a god (like the "YHWH") need an identity defined by human sexual organs?
List some of the Bhagavad Gita that can be demonstrated by history. What kind of prophecies has come about exactly as written?Using modern scientific methods, such as satellite imagery and dating techniques, it can be shown that the ancient statements of the Vedas are factual, not mythical as erroneously propagated. High resolution satellite images have verified descriptions in The Rig Veda of the descent of the ancient Sarasvati River from it's source in the Himalayas to the Arabian Sea. [LINK]Of course we both know what your are asking for is a red-herring.We've already established the historical accuracy of the Epic of Gilgamesh, but that doesn't "prove" any of their gods were "real".Historical accuracy is moot. Accurate predictions are also moot.
It is a given that I start there just like you start with the presupposition that the Christian God is not real. It is a given that if I start with Him I don't start with other gods.
He made humanity in His image likeness thus they have the ability to make choices.HOw is "original sin" which you are born with, a "choice"?
Also, does this mean that the Jesus (and Mary) couldn't make choices?
Jesus only had 23 from the female and 23 from God.
It is a given that I start there just like you start with the presupposition that the Christian God is not real. It is a given that if I start with Him I don't start with other gods.This effectively ends the discussion, because only one of us actually starts with a presumption of anything beyond what's immediately presentable existing, and it isn't me.
I start with no presumption, only the notion that I've not ever seen any convincing evidence that any god is real, or that any god is realer or less real than any other, and that since most things seem explicable through natural phenoman, adding a layer of magic on top of it is unnecessary.
I am open for convincing. You, on the other hand, admit freely that in order to prove your god is right, you have to start with the notion that your god is right, without that god having earned it. This is an inhibitor to honest debate. The rest of your post is moot. You start many of your sentences with "if a biblical god is true" and instead of answering the IF part (which is central!), you just proceed as if he IS true. That's not how it works, convincing other people.
And your other problem tying yourself to the bible is that so much of your contortions seem supported extra-biblically (like the insane notion that 70 = 490ish years).
It's either the bible alone, or you have to take into account the scholarship (overwhelming in number) that contradicts your accounting as much as you take into account the ones that support it. For example, you can't point to the hebrews trekking across Egypt without also pointing out that god must have erased all the evidence supporting it for some reason, as modern archaelogists do not find any evidence of hebrews wandering around for 40 years.
No, you either start with a Creator or a chance happenstance universe as your starting point, from which everything else originates from. You explain things through one of two such worldviews.
Jesus only had 23 from the female and 23 from God.Staggering! Where did you get information that god had chromosomes???
And how you'd somehow figure out that no one in any of Mary's bloodlines were ever related to the first two people on earth, who would NECESSARILY have to be everyone ever's parent...again you're not really looking for honest debate with this sort of stuff. You are literally the first person I've ever heard claim god has literal genetic material.
No, you either start with a Creator or a chance happenstance universe as your starting point, from which everything else originates from. You explain things through one of two such worldviews.Except this is not exactly what you do, is it? You don't start with a creator.
You start with YOUR version of the Creator, which just happens to be god. If there's a way to go from little c creator to capital g God of the Bible, you would have to find that way.
You have admitted several times you can't do that,
and that your view doesn't work unless you start with the view that it's already correct.
Try the inverse, let's forget your god for a second: please demonstrate that [ANY OTHER GOD YOU WANT TO CHOOSE] is not real WITHOUT REFERRING TO YOUR GOD OR THE BIBLE. Can it be done?
Regarding prophecy, did the OT predict another building and destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Jewish system of worship before it happened (i.e., Daniel 9:24-27 as one such passage)? Is that reasonable to believe? If you think not then provide evidence as to why.
The Bible is confirmed by what we know of history (and I claim it is logic to believe also). The Bible gives a consistent and coherent explanation of the universe, life, morality, truth, etc. Your worldview does not. It acts inconsistently with its core foundational beliefs.
I don't start with my version, I start with the biblical revelation that states God is the only God and I use my logic that confirms this is so.
Why would I believe in God if I didn't believe He existed? You first have to start with that presupposition.
You have admitted several times you can't do that,How have I done that?
And why would I discard the biblical God as my reference? I find reason in Him, not in you or in some other god. I don't find any other gods as sufficient reason for the universe, nor do I have to. The counterfeit is based on the real, not the other way around.
Well stated.You mean besides not even attempting it in eight pages? Each of your posts seems to come down to "bible quote" (without demonstrating that bible is true, again it's the claim not the evidence) + "Special pleading / argument from incredulity" X "confirmation bias." If you could do it, you'd have done it, I've asked directly several times. I'll ask again: can you prove that your religion is true and every other one is false, that your god is real and all others fiction, without referring to the bible as it is the claim not evidence? It's a yes or no question.
It seems to me that a) if the biblical prophecies are genuine then God (probably) exists and b)if the prophecies are fake then God (probably) does not exist.It strikes me a lot rides on the prophecies.
Regarding prophecy, did the OT predict another building and destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Jewish system of worship before it happened (i.e., Daniel 9:24-27 as one such passage)? Is that reasonable to believe? If you think not then provide evidence as to why.Umm no, this prophecy is false. The destruction did not occur 70 weeks after the prophecy24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, [j]to finish [k]transgression, and [l]to make an end of sins, and to [m]make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and [n]prophecy, and to anoint [o]the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [p]the anointed one, the prince, shall be [q]seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and [r]shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the [s]oblation to cease; and [t]upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.The Bible is confirmed by what we know of history (and I claim it is logic to believe also). The Bible gives a consistent and coherent explanation of the universe, life, morality, truth, etc. Your worldview does not. It acts inconsistently with its core foundational beliefs.History rejects the notion that the Jews were slaves in Egypt for 400yrs. History rejects the notion of 4 million people wandering a small wilderness for 40yrs. Science has proved that there was never a worldwide flood and history records that. Your bible is not confirmed by history, it is proven wrong at every turn by history.
I don't start with my version, I start with the biblical revelation that states God is the only God and I use my logic that confirms this is so.That's your version. A Muslim starts with his version, a Hindu his version, a Cherokee his version...and all would argue it exactly as you do. To whit...
Why would I believe in God if I didn't believe He existed? You first have to start with that presupposition.I can think of no other proposition that requires you to believe in it to figure out you believe in it. That's not how reasoning or logic works.
You have admitted several times you can't do that,How have I done that?You mean besides not even attempting it in eight pages? Each of your posts seems to come down to "bible quote" (without demonstrating that bible is true, again it's the claim not the evidence) + "Special pleading / argument from incredulity" X "confirmation bias."
If you could do it, you'd have done it, I've asked directly several times. I'll ask again: can you prove that your religion is true and every other one is false, that your god is real and all others fiction, without referring to the bible as it is the claim not evidence? It's a yes or no question.
And why would I discard the biblical God as my reference? I find reason in Him, not in you or in some other god. I don't find any other gods as sufficient reason for the universe, nor do I have to. The counterfeit is based on the real, not the other way around.Looks like I left one out: "personal preference." If you've 'been there, done that' proving other gods false without referring to your own god or religion, it ought to be easy, but here we are. You have not answered this one either, and my guess is because you're smart enough to see that your own arguments against most other religions are exactly the same level of problematic for your religion.
Can you logically show me that the prophecies apply to a distant generation and not the 1st-century audience? I do not believe you logically or reasonably can. If you think otherwise I invite you to try. I also invite ludofl3x to do the same.
can you prove that your religion is true and every other one is false, that your god is real and all others fiction, without referring to the bible as it is the claim not evidence? It's a yes or no question.
[1] Let's say we take for granted that the universe is here as it is not because of any natural reaction or coincidence, but instead that it was created by a thinking agent. [2] There is no real rational reason for granting this, at least none I've ever seen argued convincingly here or elsewhere, but let's skip that part, I'm saying, as an olive branch to the believer. It doesn't matter, then, if you subscribe to a big bang cosmology BUT it was started by a thinking agent, or if you think the world was created 10000 years ago. [3] What I'm curious about is how does one justify going from "creator" to any god with a capital G. How, essentially, can you convince someone else that your version of the creator is correct, and by extension your religion is the right one, and theirs is INcorrect, and therefore the wrong one?
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Simple. You stop being an asshole, stop accusing and judging everyone, stop pretending you're here to educate when you are accomplishing the exact opposite, stop repeating yourself over and over and try discussing things with people. I can think of more, but that should get you started.
Deism isn't a God.
Again, I start my proof of God with prophecy. Are you willing to engage?
