A question

Author: TheRealNihilist

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He believes that the laws of logic can't be justified because you have to use the laws of logic.  Under my worldview, logic justifying itself is just self evidence. 
You should have that in your profile description. Self evidence and a definition of it.
I still don't agree but I doubt we would come to an agreement apart from a disagreement on using self-evidence. 

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Well if you believe in axioms then our beliefs would already be pretty close to each other.  My belief is basically foundationalism where a person justifies the axiom.  I don't use the term axiom because it necessarily implies that the belief is not justified and I think it is justified.  

The other issue this would cause for us is we might disagree about how much we can know. 

I think we can know any specific belief to a metaphysical degree and some we can't. 

How about you? 
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I would ask if the logic laws are abstractions of aspect of physical reality.   If so their justification is empirical.
Does physics dictate logic or vice versa? 
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Well if you believe in axioms then our beliefs would already be pretty close to each other.  My belief is basically foundationalism where a person justifies the axiom.  I don't use the term axiom because it necessarily implies that the belief is not justified and I think it is justified.  
You requires axioms to have any sort of conversation. A person who denies that is arguing in bad faith or genuinely doesn't know. I guess would be using unjustified axioms but it does not mean I am not able to justify them (In most cases but in some cases I can't) or able to argue against someone else's. I would consider me saying at my best I am capable of rational thought is not a stretch compared to God ordained us to have rational thought. Two points were made instead of one. I in no way stated where it is from which is a problem because then I think I would have to justify it because God is more of a stretch than we are rational at our best.
The other issue this would cause for us is we might disagree about how much we can know. 
I think we can know a lot but the "know" part is the issue for me. Everything goes through our brain and to something exist outside our brain objectively would be my problem because all we are are our senses and how our brain perceives them.
I think we can know any specific belief to a metaphysical degree and some we can't. 
That would be correct and I think you would see my problem coming down to semantics since I can't prove what I say. If it is that we can know something outside our brain then I would have a problem.
How about you? 
I don't know. Guess I should read more into philosophy and see which one I like the most. 

Can you tell me some ways of viewing the world that can be what I am for? 
I would like a foundation so that I can harken back to that so that I am being consistent. I haven't really had one of those instead basically saying something like my foundation is that I want to be happy. In order to do this it must be for the long term and to stop conflict I would require other people to also be happy as well. 
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You bring up a good point about the difference in those two claims.  "I have logic"  is probably true and you would probably be justified to accept it axiomatically.  While "God exist"  Is a claim with lots of massive assumptions and it would be necessary to justify it.  While it's true that it might be possible to justify a previously unjustified axiom, my question for you would, if it can be justified, then why leave it unjustified? The problem isn't believing it.  The problem is that if you are allowed to presuppose axioms, then anybody can presuppose anything.  So how can you make any arguments in a debate if you can't even justify your ability to use them.  What if all of your arguments come from bad axioms?  What if you think you're mostly logical, but you're actually illogical in some places and you can't tell because you didn't bother to justify your beliefs.  The real difference in our world views is that I don't have to ask myself these questions.  Could my beliefs be wrong?  Maybe.  But at least I have a standard.  Beliefs without a standard are just mouth noise. 

Okay, well if you accept that we perceive than you have to accept that we're perceiving something.  If you brain is getting messages, then something is prompting those messages.  Your brain is just a translator.  Reality is Spanish and your brain is turning it into English so you can understand it.  That's not the same as your reality being you.  If you were reality, then you should be able to control external things because they're just part of your brain.  But you can't. 

Okay, well if you know things can exist inside your brain then you have tools to use.  You should be able to use those tools to get you to external.  Hell, if you wanted to you could build a full foundationalist tree off of the assumption that your reality is you and it's true in your reality.  It seems vacuous to do that to me because at that point you're just assuming that people are you.  so that means that I'm part of you and that you're arguing with yourself which is strange because why wouldn't you believe yourself?

Go ahead, I'd be interested to see how you interpret philosophy.  Maybe you'll find a good argument against me. 

Sure so you have pragmatist who think that we should just intuitively accept reality.  There's Platonist who believe abstracts are real in some sense and they don't accept the law of excluded middle so they don't believe that you can prove things with impossibility to the contrary and they proof things by making composites of reality, which means they have to be able to 100% demonstrate the thing.  You get solid proofs from platonism but the abstract thing leads to contradictions and their proving power is super limited.  Then you have coherentism where they believe that you can use circular logic to justify things and they build their beliefs in a web.  They believe that every believe has to be "coherent" which means that none of your beliefs is allowed to contradict another one.  Than you have Infinitism which believes that the infinite regress is okay and we can still know what we know and the foundation is just a mystery.  I'll make a list too. 

pragmatism
foundationalism
coherentism
infinitism
platonism. 

btw, the three main ones are, infinitism, foundationalism, and coherentism.  All other philosophies end up back here because everything stems from Agrippa's trilemma. All of these thins I named also have different versions of themselves.  

Also every philosopher is either an externalist or internalist which describes where they get their justification. 

Then there's a priori and eposteri I think I spelled those right.  The first is just in the brain.  So all of your beleifs are a priori because you don't use the outside mind.  The second one is anything that is not the mind.  a priori NEVER applies to objects in the world.  It's things like logical arguments and hypotheticals. etc.  

Some people mix a lot of these ideas together and some are newer renditions of older ones.  In summation.  There's a lot of "isms" in philosophy. 
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Also.  I'm not arguing in bad faith just because I don't take axioms.  If I presupposed, then I'd be arguing in bad faith.  I have a standard and I am yet to have my standard disproven by anyone so that's good faith arguing in my opinion. 
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then why leave it unjustified?
I think it would be impossible in some respects and in others I would hope the other person would accept that instead of asking so pointless like why are we speaking English? My answer would be because we both speak it but something like how do you know you are truly rational? I wouldn't know how to answer it.

The problem is that if you are allowed to presuppose axioms, then anybody can presuppose anything. 
I am presupposing things that I can't know which is why I am presupposing it. 
What if all of your arguments come from bad axioms?
Guess I can have a discussion on my axioms and me and the person I am talking to can figure it out.
What if you think you're mostly logical, but you're actually illogical in some places and you can't tell because you didn't bother to justify your beliefs.
I think that would be down to me not putting enough effort into find the answer. I would mostly not decide to give my opinion on things I don't know anything about which is how I avoid topics that I don't know anything about.
That's not the same as your reality being you.  If you were reality, then you should be able to control external things because they're just part of your brain.  But you can't. 
My stance is we can perceive reality but we can't truly know what reality is.
You should be able to use those tools to get you to external.
Yes tools are used in the external world but I wouldn't truly know if what I am doing is correct but can come as close as to it as I possibly can without knowing it. I am seeing this as you trying to bridge the gap between a normative statement and a prescriptive statement. Am I wrong?

pragmatism
foundationalism
coherentism
infinitism
platonism. 
I'll check them out.

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Also.  I'm not arguing in bad faith just because I don't take axioms.  If I presupposed, then I'd be arguing in bad faith.  I have a standard and I am yet to have my standard disproven by anyone so that's good faith arguing in my opinion. 
I am not intellectually savvy enough to state how this is in bad faith or you are ignorant of your standard behind self-evidence. 

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So in that example you gave, you just used self evidence without realizing it.  

My answer would be because we both speak it
I'll set this up just like the bachelor example.  A= Engilsh  B= your quote.  "A because B"  Now if you're okay with this, then we can use the same process to justify logic.  So generally speaking, to be logical, is to think properly within a system.  But obviously we want that system to be good right?  Because otherwise what's the point of being logical?  So  I can use the bachelor example to get the laws of logic and all of the shortcuts that philophers discovered in logic to do logic faster because those all get proven by the initial laws of logic. Once you have the laws of logic and you're using them properly, you can then be justified to say you're logical.  Or you could just invent a personally logic and say "I am logical (according to omar logic)"

Well if you really can't know if, then why not just say I don't know?  Presupposing something you don't know is exactly how you end up at theism.  

"How does lightning happen?  I don't know, let's presuppose it was Zeus"  Case and point. 

But our senses are not lightning bolts.  We can know we are conscious without knowing why.  If you asked my why I'm conscious, I would tell you I don't know.  I could tell you why my brain works.  But I couldn't tell you what makes me experience everything.  But not knowing why the proof works doesn't change the fact that it works.  

"How does lightning happen?  I don't know, but it does" Case and point. 

Those two sentences are the difference between a presupposition and self evidence.  The first one is prescriptive and tries to explain the cause.  The second one is descriptive and states what already has presented itself. 

Okay, so if you assume something, then you don't necessarily give a strong opinion about it.  I'm okay with that.  But if you assume your foundation then doesn't that mean you can't give a strong opinion about anything?  

Okay, the person talks about the axioms and agrees with you.  Does that make them true?  I suppose this would get you through the debate, but what about life? 

Well if we can perceive it than we can know what we perceive at least.  So you're just saying "we can never know things that we can't know"  which is technically true but doesn't actually tell us if can know something or not.  My view on this is that if we can never know and it doesn't effect us that it doesn't matter anyway because what we do know is still true and it works for us and every claim we make about what we do know will still be true.  So you can say that we might never know exactly what an atom looks like without using light, but you can't deny the fact that it's an atom and you can't deny that it works the way we see it. 

I wouldn't truly know if what I am doing is correct
Okay, so you've said this a few times.  What makes something correct?  If I am hungry and I want to stop being hungry and I eat a cracker, how is that not correct?  I fed myself didn't I?  Does it matter what the cracker is made of?  It feeds me right? I had no problem picking it up right?  It's useful, our senses don't care about being "right" or "wrong" about things.  They just are. 


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So in that example you gave, you just used self evidence without realizing it. 
I would call it justifying my axioms. This would be semantics. Just don't like the word self-evident. If it was so self-evident why not say instead of saying self-evident?
But obviously we want that system to be good right?
Isn't this a value statement?
then why not just say I don't know?  Presupposing something you don't know is exactly how you end up at theism. 
No I am assuming I am a rational thinker. I am sure when people are drunk they are not able to give a good answer to it.
"How does lightning happen?  I don't know, let's presuppose it was Zeus"  Case and point. 
I don't know. Show me what you believe and how you got there and we will see if you are correct. 
But not knowing why the proof works doesn't change the fact that it works.  
Then how would you know the extent it does work or maybe it is working in a different way the consensus is?
"How does lightning happen?  I don't know, but it does" Case and point. 
Same thing as I said before.
But if you assume your foundation then doesn't that mean you can't give a strong opinion about anything?  
Not necessarily because my assumption that I am able to have this conversation rationally would be shared with the other person if they wanted to be rational rather then emotional.
Okay, the person talks about the axioms and agrees with you.  Does that make them true?
Can axioms be value statements? If so if we value the same thing and we arrive at the same conclusion then we are good while also not having being good faith actors.
I suppose this would get you through the debate, but what about life? 
What do you mean here?
because what we do know is still true and it works for us and every claim we make about what we do know will still be true.
So what works is true?
but you can't deny the fact that it's an atom and you can't deny that it works the way we see it. 
That would require knowledge I don't have and the way I see it I will never it get in this life.
Okay, so you've said this a few times.  What makes something correct?  If I am hungry and I want to stop being hungry and I eat a cracker, how is that not correct?  I fed myself didn't I?  Does it matter what the cracker is made of?  It feeds me right? I had no problem picking it up right?  It's useful, our senses don't care about being "right" or "wrong" about things.  They just are. 
Isn't being correct dependent on what I value? If I value my survival I would eat but there is no way we can find out this is.
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First of all.  Semantics are important.  I don't care what anyone says.  The devil is in the details.  Second, some people do use self evidence to justify axioms.  I'm pretty sure most do actually, they just word it differently.  I don't know what you mean by "why don't they just say"  You mean say it's true because it's true?  That's exactly what self evidence is except self evidence takes the extra step of adding impossibility of the contrary. 

Sure, it's a value statement.  Do you want your logic to be wrong? If you don't share that value with me, I have no problem with that.  But you're going to have a problem being logical. 

Assuming and presupposing are the same in this case.  a presupposition is an assumption without evidence.  to "assume" is to just act in the role of something.  If I "assume" ownership of someone's car.  I'm acting as if the car belongs to me.  If I'm making that assumption without evidence.  Then I'm presupposing that I own the car. 

the person is presupposing Zeus.  They have no reason to give you.  that's the point.  They're basically saying "Zeus because intuition" 

If the consensus is wrong, then that just means that people were wrong.  has nothing to do with me.  As for knowing the extent.  It doesn't matter.  The part that I can see working works the way I'm seeing it.  I might not know the "ultimate" cause of lightning.  But I do know what the end result of lightning is.  You're trying to tell me I can't know what lightning is unless I know it down to the last atom.  That's just fallacious. 

It's not the same thing as I said before.  In the first example, the person posited "Zeus" and the other person can't see Zeus, so he needs evidence.  In the second case, the person seen the lightning with him and can agree with the person that the lightning works.  If you're going to ask for evidence that you saw something then you're being foolish. Even if the thing you saw was wrong, you still saw it. 

Just because a person shares your presupposition doesn't make it true.  That's an ad populum argument and it's not justified in this case. By your logic, if you believe in unicorns as an axiom and someone agrees with you, then you have confidence that unicorns exist.  That's  why axioms lead to bad beliefs.  It doesn't matter how much you intuitively know it's right, it could still be wrong.  That's why you need a standard. You can critique my self evidence all day but at least my beliefs don't open up room for things like unicorns. 

Any statement can be an axiom.  I could invent a philosophy right now called axiomism and say that you just believe everything axiomatically.  and you would end up believing contradictory things.  You could believe that the earth was both flat and round and square and made of jello and made of cheese all at the same time. What is really happening here is that you believe things for the same reason everybody else does and you're just claiming it as an axiom and justifying it to be true because it's practical.  So right now your assuming the role of a pragmatist.  Your saying "it's true because it works the way I want"  Which will get you to mostly good beliefs, but you'll still end up believing ridiculous things in the end because sometimes what is practical is not always true.  Theism is super practical sometimes, doesn't make it true. 

I mean if your opponent agrees with your axiom, then you will be able to use it in the debate.  But if the axiom is false, then it might cause you to fail at life somehow.  Like if you believed you could fly and your debate opponent agreed with you.  You might feel justified to go try flying and then get killed. 

It's not true because it works for us.  It's true and it happens to also work for us in some cases. Some truths are inconvenient for us.  Like the truth that a floor is slippery isn't very practical for us because it could hurt us.  So it would work better for us if it wasn't true, but it is so we deal with it.

No, you think you don't have the knowledge.  You're just choosing to not believe it.  If you can't trust your senses then you might as well just never try to know anything because you're stuck with them.  

Yes, for something to be correct, you need a standard.  So what? Correct is just a word that you're falsely applying here.  Senses aren't "correct" or "incorrect"  They just are.  They do exactly what they are suppose to do, which is sense things.  To ask if that is correct is not is just incoherent. If you're not going to set a standard by which to be correct then you can't use the word correct on something.  So you can't just say "is it correct" and then turn around and say "we can't know the standard"  You're contradicting yourself.

 



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Next time have a receiver, I didn't know you replied back. 
What do you think of egoism?
That's exactly what self evidence is except self evidence takes the extra step of adding impossibility of the contrary. 

What if there is more than two options?
Sure, it's a value statement.  Do you want your logic to be wrong?
Can you quote me as well? Kind of lose track what you are trying to rebut. No I don't want my argument to be wrong I just want to make sure if I was correct that you made a value statement.
Assuming and presupposing are the same in this case.  a presupposition is an assumption without evidence.  to "assume" is to just act in the role of something.  If I "assume" ownership of someone's car.  I'm acting as if the car belongs to me.  If I'm making that assumption without evidence.  Then I'm presupposing that I own the car. 
Guess I will stick to unjustified axioms. 
  You're trying to tell me I can't know what lightning is unless I know it down to the last atom. 
I am saying without knowing everything about it you wouldn't know the most important thing to acknowledge with your system in mind.
 If you're going to ask for evidence that you saw something then you're being foolish. Even if the thing you saw was wrong, you still saw it.
I would ask for evidence if I didn't see. If I did see it I don't require evidence.
Just because a person shares your presupposition doesn't make it true.  That's an ad populum argument and it's not justified in this case.
The first thing I would do is have a discussion on what ought I value for my axioms then we can have a talk about other things.
You can critique my self evidence all day but at least my beliefs don't open up room for things like unicorns.  
A unicorn is a pink horse with a horn on his/her head.
Any statement can be an axiom.  I could invent a philosophy right now called axiomism and say that you just believe everything axiomatically.  and you would end up believing contradictory things. 
Okay then I will be making axioms based on what I value and that is not contradictory.
You might feel justified to go try flying and then get killed. 
I will use axioms that are also reasonable.
So it would work better for us if it wasn't true, but it is so we deal with it. 
So we have facts and we make value statements on what ought we do about it?
No, you think you don't have the knowledge.
What if I actually don't have the knowledge? 
Senses aren't "correct" or "incorrect"  They just are.
So it is a fact that a blind person has senses but it doesn't matter about the value statement?
 So you can't just say "is it correct" and then turn around and say "we can't know the standard"  You're contradicting yourself. 
So when you have a standard you would be able to know if something is wrong or right? 
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Philosophically speaking.  Egoism would likely lead to a pretty crappy world. Practically speaking.  Nature kind of automatically makes us Egoists.  It's just that sometimes doing the selfish thing can also lead to helping someone.  Most seemingly selfless acts are done with the expectation that the recipient would reciprocate the same act back on them if they ever needed it.  I would also say that humans have a disposition for empathy so it would be impossible to truly hold this position without having exceptions to itself. 

That's actually a really good question.  If there are more than two options, they get loaded into the tautology.  I'll show you. 

Lets' as A or Not A.   Where A = God created the universe   A would only have God created the universe in it.  and Not A would be every single alternative to that.  So if B = Big bang created the universe and you said A or B.  This would not be a tautology because it is not true and doesn't include every possibility.  In cases where you have more than two options, it can sometimes make it difficult to prove the claim through self evidence.  However, most claims with more than two options can also be reduced to more simple self evident claims and this could sometimes allow you to eliminate the possibilities on an individual level to make the bigger possibility easier to discover.

 I'll try to make sure my responses point to your questions better.  But I already started this one, so next time I'll use quotes.  But try not to make your quote trees bigger than they need to be.  If you're addressing one subject, just quote a piece of it and handle the whole subject off that quote so I don't run out of room in my message. 

I am saying without knowing everything about it you wouldn't know the most important thing to acknowledge with your system in mind.

The important thing is that I know it's lightning.  I can know it hurts me.  I can know it makes electricity.  I don't have to know anything about atoms to know those things.  You're doing what's called a whole of the part fallacy (not the part of the whole.  that's a different fallacy)  where you say that the whole is unknown without considering that we can still know the parts. 

I would ask for evidence if I didn't see. If I did see it I don't require evidence
Then you just accepted an identity truth based on self evidence. score one for me. I'm cool with that even if you don't want to call it self evidence.  I care more about you using a good standard more than what I care about you naming it a certain way. 

The first thing I would do is have a discussion on what ought I value for my axioms then we can have a talk about other things.
The very act of deciding what makes it in axiom makes it not an axiom anymore because you're placing another belief under it.  Now your newly placed value becomes the axiom and you have to justify that value.  That's why self evidence is better, it doesn't push the axiom in to the infinite regress. 


A unicorn is a pink horse with a horn on his/her head.
I don't know where you got the pink thing from, but anyway.  Okay and those things don't exist do they?  If you want to put a fake horn on it then whatever, but you're missing the point.  What if we both agreed that a unicorn was an all powerful being that shoots fire out of it's but and controls time and space and we both agree to it.  Does that make it true? It would be true by definition, but it's not a tautology unless the definition is attached to something, so if you have no fire butt spitting unicorn to compare it to, then it's just an abstract fantasy and it's true under your worldview which is problematic for you. 

Okay then I will be making axioms based on what I value and that is not contradictory.

Sure, then the value becomes the axiom.  Now tell me how you justify the value? infinite regress again.


I will use axioms that are also reasonable.
How can you know if it's reasonable without a standard?  You're just taking things that you already have evidence for and calling them axioms, why not just use the evidence? 

So it is a fact that a blind person has senses but it doesn't matter about the value statement?
A blind person does have senses.  They just have broken eyeballs.  For you to even believe that somebody could be blind you'd have to first go outside of you mind and accept eyeballs as existing. They don't see "incorrectly" because they don't see at all. You can't do something incorrectly if you're not doing it.  Thing that makes a sense "correct" is that it is sensing things.  If you want to set a standard on it, then to say your sense is "incorrect" is really to say it's "inferior" which means that you're still seeing things mostly correctly with maybe a few of the details blurred.  But the correctness of our senses is ultimately decided by what they're meant to do.  If you eyes sees things they way it was designed, then it's seeing correctly. 

What if I actually don't have the knowledge?
If you don't have the knowledge than you don't.  But you do.  I know you've seen lightning before, so you have knowledge of it.  You're posing a hypothetical scenario that doesn't match your reality, so of course you're not going to know something if you make an example where you don't know it.

So when you have a standard you would be able to know if something is wrong or right? 
You could say it's right or wrong in respect to the standard yes.  There is no intrinsic right or wrong.  "right" means that it fits a given standard and "wrong" means it doesn't.  This applies to all words that assess values in a binary way. It's like Boolean logic that computers use.




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Philosophically speaking.  Egoism would likely lead to a pretty crappy world.
If we all say something like I would care for if I have something back isn't that egoism? If I did not make a fair trade more than likely that person would not deal with me or harm me in some way as a result of it. So basically I am making the case for long term egoism.
However, most claims with more than two options can also be reduced to more simple self evident claims and this could sometimes allow you to eliminate the possibilities on an individual level to make the bigger possibility easier to discover. 
So basically when there is more than two options. You focus on one and when you are done with that prove or disprove the others individually?
You're doing what's called a whole of the part fallacy (not the part of the whole.  that's a different fallacy)  where you say that the whole is unknown without considering that we can still know the parts. 
I am not saying what you do know you can make it go through your standards but do you agree you do not know everything about lighting to say this is the final time I will be applying lightning to my standards if that knowledge was available and you lived to see it as well so basically you are immortal only to know all about lightning?

Then you just accepted an identity truth based on self evidence.
Why do you call it self-evidence? Is that the only kind of reasonable foundation?
it doesn't push the axiom in to the infinite regress. 
It wouldn't be an infinite regress if I wanted my axiom to value my happiness. I could use that as a starting point and then outline what it would take for me to be happy.
then it's just an abstract fantasy and it's true under your worldview which is problematic for you. 
Okay.

If you don't have the knowledge than you don't. 
Okay. 
You could say it's right or wrong in respect to the standard yes.  There is no intrinsic right or wrong.  "right" means that it fits a given standard and "wrong" means it doesn't.  This applies to all words that assess values in a binary way. It's like Boolean logic that computers use.
Okay.
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If we all say something like I would care for if I have something back isn't that egoism?
If you're saying you would do a good deed naturally expecting that you might get something back in the future and that was you sole motivation for doing it, then yes, then would be egoism. It's what most people do intuitively. It's true that the person might never reciprocate.  But if they didn't, they could never get a favor from you in the future, so it feeds into itself.  Person A wants a future favor and gives a favor. Person B realizes they get can favors from Person A, so they give a favor back to Person A knowing that Person A has a history of giving favors and that raises their confidence level in getting back a favor.  After exchanging enough favors.  Both people have confidence they will get something in return and have no problem giving favors because there has been a precedent established. 

So basically when there is more than two options. You focus on one and when you are done with that prove or disprove the others individually?
If by focus, you mean isolate, then yes.  It's exactly like algebra when you try to get X by itself in the equation to solve it.  You put the thing you want to disprove by itself and then disprove the contrary.  Or you can put the thing you want to prove by itself and disprove it and then make a new tautology with the remaining beliefs and keep doing that until you reach two options then it doesn't matter which side you disprove. 

I am not saying what you do know you can make it go through your standards but do you agree you do not know everything about lighting to say this is the final time I will be applying lightning to my standards if that knowledge was available and you lived to see it as well so basically you are immortal only to know all about lightning?

So you're asking if I can know that I know everything about lightning.  I could, it would depend.  If I can account for everything about the lightning and I can prove that there is no more room in the lightning for anything else, then I could say I know everything about it.  Now I couldn't say that I know everything about what happens to other things that touch lightning unless I also know everything about the thing touching the lightning.  So if you count every interaction that lightning has as being part of lightning, then I could probably never know it, but that comes down to how we categorize it.  I would say that I know everything about the identity of lightning, I could know everything about the composition of lightning, but that I can't know about every interaction because it would have to interact with things that I don't know fully. 

Why do you call it self-evidence? Is that the only kind of reasonable foundation?
Well you're saying A because A.  So that means it's justifying it self.  So it's automatically self evidence.  Circular reasoning could be a good foundation but the problem is that at least one prong on the circle would have to be an axiom so you still have to justify that axiom.  If you're a coherentist, you would just say the circle works because it's consistent and I might accept that.  I call it self evidence. but there's other ways to say it. You could call it identity truth or definitional truth.  You could say it's true in our reality (I believe this is what Kant argued) and that our logic is for us so it's true for us and it doesn't matter if it's true in other worlds.  There's a lot of ways to word it.  Ultimately, you either end up with a circle or a believe justifying itself or an unjustified infinite regress.  If you want to know more about this.  Look up "Agrippa's Trilemma" 

Sure, if you took your happiness as an axiom, then everything you would be justified ASSUMING that your axiom is sound. I would say starting from a base axiom like that is smarter than just taking any axiom that you choose.  One philosophy people have is "properly basic beliefs"  which is to say you take the absolute minimum amount of axioms that you have to and that makes it as true as possible. 
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If you're saying you would do a good deed naturally expecting that you might get something back in the future and that was you sole motivation for doing it, then yes, then would be egoism. It's what most people do intuitively. It's true that the person might never reciprocate.  But if they didn't, they could never get a favor from you in the future, so it feeds into itself.  Person A wants a future favor and gives a favor. Person B realizes they get can favors from Person A, so they give a favor back to Person A knowing that Person A has a history of giving favors and that raises their confidence level in getting back a favor.  After exchanging enough favors.  Both people have confidence they will get something in return and have no problem giving favors because there has been a precedent established. 
This would be the norm if we all agree to help each other if they help us. Guess we can have a court of favours. Where if they don't commit to favours then they will be punished in order to keep the balance of favours.
If by focus, you mean isolate, then yes.
Okay.
I could know everything about the composition of lightning, but that I can't know about every interaction because it would have to interact with things that I don't know fully. 
Okay.
Well you're saying A because A.
Isn't it because of what A means? A because of what A means.
Do more of the ABC's don't really understand the lightning example. Call it L if you want. 
Look up "Agrippa's Trilemma" 
Okay.
which is to say you take the absolute minimum amount of axioms that you have to and that makes it as true as possible. 
That sounds reasonable. Shame laws are not made that way. Oh well. 
I have heard of properly basic beliefs. 
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It is funny when you type in properly basic beliefs. 
That picture about atheism is really funny. 
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This would be the norm if we all agree to help each other if they help us. Guess we can have a court of favours. Where if they don't commit to favours then they will be punished in order to keep the balance of favours.

That's an interesting thought experiment and very similar to civil court.  I would use civil court as your model for that. I'm not sure if it would be the ideal system, but it could have benefits. 

Isn't it because of what A means? A because of what A means.

Well X means itself obviously.  But what makes it self evident is when we assign something to X.  So if I assign a Rock to X  I have categorized it and that category is true.  Then I can go into the pieces of the rock and name those X1, X2,etc. to have the pieces.  Then I can lock at the interactions going on between the pieces within the rock and look for consistencies.  I can then name those consistencies Xa, Xb, Etc.  I can then turn those consistencies into hard math and derive a priori truths about them without having to use identity anymore and now I'm getting myself into science.  I can then take the inconsistencies and lump them into a variable of stuff I don't know yet and call it "X?1" and "X?2" etc.  Once I have done this, I get a composite of the rock and I have all of the truths within it with the exception of the "X?" category.  But everything outside of that category would be true. 



It would be nice if laws worked that way.  But we have to share space with everybody's ideas unfortunately.  It's like a necessary evil, figuratively speaking. 

You should look into this guy name Alex Malpass on youtube.  he did a discussion with Matt slick and Matt D and there's not a lot of stuff about him but he has some interesting ideas about philosophy.  I think he's a Platonist. 
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That's an interesting thought experiment and very similar to civil court.  I would use civil court as your model for that. I'm not sure if it would be the ideal system, but it could have benefits. 
No need for a civil court when you can have one based on favours.
Well X means itself obviously.
I mean it as in the specific thing I am talking about. I would say it is like lighting for how rare it occurs. It is not really self-evident of lightning since it depends on your perspective of lightning but if I am talking to a person who has the same perception of lighting they would understand what I mean. 
It would be nice if laws worked that way.  But we have to share space with everybody's ideas unfortunately.  It's like a necessary evil, figuratively speaking.  
Well in a democracy. Doubt there is room for a better system like a meritocracy since it is really difficult to work.
You should look into this guy name Alex Malpass on youtube.  he did a discussion with Matt slick and Matt D and there's not a lot of stuff about him but he has some interesting ideas about philosophy.  I think he's a Platonist. 
So basically he thinks abstract ideas are real as in like an apple? 

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I agree, you would just replace it with favor court using all of the good rules that civil court might have. 

They would understand you most likely if they had seen something like it before.  It doesn't matter if you use your perception.  Evidence is meant to be given to the perception.  The perception itself is not part of the proof.  it's a tool. 

Not sure. 

Well modern Platonists don't ALWAYS say they're real.  But he might say that we can't know they're not real.  He might think it's like a physical property. I"m not sure because he's ambiguous as to his specific beliefs. 
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Evidence is meant to be given to the perception.  The perception itself is not part of the proof.  it's a tool. 
But something like Dodo bird would be difficult to verify to people who have not seen it. Lets say there was someone who did knew that person would be required to the nature of it. It would require a tool like someone's information to use as a way to verify it is one.
Not sure. 
A meritocracy requires someone to judge the merit. This can be corrupted easily and not based on a really good measure. We would require a lot of hope for it to work initially and a lot more for it to remain the same. 
Well modern Platonists don't ALWAYS say they're real.  But he might say that we can't know they're not real.  He might think it's like a physical property. I"m not sure because he's ambiguous as to his specific beliefs. 
Still weird to say to say things in mind are the same as material things. 
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true, but dinosaurs are even harder and we have evidence of them.  fossils at least.  I would agree that as time goes on, our knowledge of dodo birds will diminished unless it gets stored in a data base and people keep studying it.  I also agree that we would not be able to get new knowledge on dodo birds beyond what we get from the fossil records.  I'm not even sure if dodo birds were old enough to have fossils or not, but I imagine at the very least, their ancestors did. 

Okay

I agree I think saying things like shapes being real is strange.  But people believe weird things.  I guess it's not completely crazy because things in the mind can seem so real that one might mistake them for being physical. 


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The conversation is finally over. 
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lol, indeed.  good talk sir. 
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I agree I think saying things like shapes being real is strange.

Shape = geometry ergo pattern ergo metaphsical-1, mind/intellect/concepts and is not an occupied space reality with color mass etc, rather shape is the complement to occupied space i.e. one cannot exist without the other.

Occupied space  has complementary shape and that shape appears to have and affect ex areodynamic shapes pass throught water, air etc easier than less areo-dynamic shapes.

So does a metaphyiscal-1, abstract shape/geometry/pattern, actually{ really } affect the motion through air water etc?

We can say, that, the occupied space molecules atoms etc,of the areo-dynamic vehicle interact with other occupied space molecules of air, water etc.

What makes the vehicle more areodynamic is the position of the of atoms and molecules.  So position aka location is abstract but cannot affect atoms or molecules unless and abstract position is also an occupied space.

Physical/energy { occupied space } has an associated { complementary } metaphyiscal-1, shape/geometry/pattern i.e. pattern of location { XYZ positioning }

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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I would ask you why you think sound exist.
Your kidding. Yes?

This is a repeat of the color disscussion ony were talking frequency of sound and not EMRadiaiton { photon }

That you believe color{ specific frequencies of EMRadiation } or sound { specific frequency vibraing air or water molecules } does not exist is false. 

That you cannot accept these well known and documented facts//truths make you appear as being similar to { likedn too }  a delusional, fundamental religious type.

Start with a dictionary and find the words color and sound.  Then check with the word Unicorn. Do you see the differrence between the two.

Unicorns are fictional rather than actual//real biologic's.

Sound and color are not fictional.



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Yes.  Not sure I suggested otherwise. Not sure what is more correct way of stating my below.

...1} what is being processed ex photon of specific frequency, and,

....2} how it is being processed  by various humans or other biologic animal, plant fungus, bacteria etc.
......{ Ex Fred Hoyle states, in his 190's book "The Intelligent Universe"... that the gene that reflects yellow in animals is same gene in plants. }..

Both are objectively { observed } true, irrespective, of wheter the resultants after processing, is the same for each biologic.

One sees red and color blind sees something else both both resultants are true for that observer.

So each biologic may or may not process frequency of color the same way, if at all.

And again, there may be many various kinds of molecules that cause the same frequency of color to be reflected.

So one person hears a sound and that is truth. Another person hears no sound and that is truth for that individual.

Two kinds of truth exist, absolute and relative. If there exists a third kind of truth, that is not a subcatagory of those two, please share and I will add it to my Cosmic Trinity.


Yes.  Not sure I suggested otherwise. Not sure what is more correct way of stating my below.

...1} what is being processed ex photon of specific frequency, and,

....2} how it is being processed  by various humans or other biologic animal, plant fungus, bacteria etc.
......{ Ex Fred Hoyle states, in his 190's book "The Intelligent Universe"... that the gene that reflects yellow in animals is same gene in plants. }..

Both are objectively { observed } true, irrespective, of wheter the resultants after processing, is the same for each biologic.

One sees red and color blind sees something else both both resultants are true for that observer.

So each biologic may or may not process frequency of color the same way, if at all.

And again, there may be many various kinds of molecules that cause the same frequency of color to be reflected.

So one person hears a sound and that is truth. Another person hears no sound and that is truth for that individual.

Two kinds of truth exist, absolute and relative. If there exists a third kind of truth, that is not a subcatagory of those two, please share and I will add it to my Cosmic Trinity.


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Does sound exist?  Yes for some, no for others.

Is sky blue. Yes sometimes is true. Sky is red sometimes. Sometimes it is black?

From outside, Earths sky is multi-colored or I should say it mostly invisible because we see blue water and land.

At best the sky is white or whatever the clouds color are when seen from outside of atmosphere.

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You're basically just a theist who worships shapes. 
I believe all geometry is sacred just as I believe occupied space " U "niverse//" G "od is sacred.

I worship truth, you, not so much.  If you ever have any rational logical common sense that invalidates my comments as stated please share. You have none so yet.

Differrent molecules observe, via various processes, the incoming photon of what ever specific frequency of color.

Vipers see { process } infra-red humans dont

..."Infrared is usually divided into 3 spectral regions: near, mid and far-infrared.

...The boundaries between the near, mid and far-infrared regions are not agreedupon and can vary. The main factor that determines which wavelengths are included in each of these three infrared regions is the typeof detector  --{--i,e. observer processor--}--  technology used for gathering infrared light.".....


Beauty lies in the minds eye of the observer { beholder ( * * ) } as much as it does the presenter { source O }.

O >------------/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/----------> ( * * )

Truth lies in the minds eye {  i   } of the observer  and is may be skewed by the ego { i  or as I  }





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I don't purposely mean to be insulting.  But that all sounds like complete nonsense to me.  You're assigning physical qualities to abstracts while also saying they're not physical.  You say they complement the physical, which says nothing because "complement" is just an opinion like "these shoes compliment this dress".  So you might as well have said "it blah blahs the physical"  because that's what I hear when you say that. 

You're arriving and contradictions like saying something exists to some but not others.  That would mean that existence is subjective and since the existence I define is objective, we're not talking about the same existence.  

Your language is unnecessarily confusing when you could easily simplify things by defining things by there traits and qualities instead of making the definition first and shoving into the box post hoc.  That's functionally the same as shooting and arrow into a tree and then drawing a bullseye around it. 

I agree with you on most of the functional stuff.  But the nomenclature you use is awful.  Now this might now be your fault, you might come from a worldview that uses confusing language to fallaciously sneak logic in when it's not justified and you might just not realize it.  But I have to meet your in coherent definitions with "word fleshing" to get to the bottom and you're not gonna like how the chips after that if you're married to your definitions. 

But you're not excepting any fleshing of words at this point.  You're clinging to the definitions.  Answer me this.  What's more important.  The definition? or the fact that we can talk to each other coherently?