Anti-Abortion = Anti-Personal-Privacy

Author: 3RU7AL

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@Athias
I'll phrase it this way: do you believe maintaining the position that a woman's privacy is paramount,
Yes.  100%.

...even to the extent of relinquishing/shirking any responsibility to the sustenance she may bear her unborn child,
Here's our disconnect.  I maintain that the blastocyst/zygote/embryo/fetus is 100% mother's body.

Only when the cord is cut does that mass of cells become a CITIZEN, subject to and protected by the law-of-the-land.

...without which said unborn child/fetus/embryo/zygote etc. would likely die,,
This seems to be an unintentional straw-man (and an appeal to emotion).  The mass of cells that is 100% mother's body is subject to the mother's whim.  The mass of cells has the same legal status as a parasite or a tumor.

...is (logically/philosophically/ethically) consistent with maintaining the position that she is bound to assume responsibility for a born child/infant--
At the moment the cord is cut, the mass of cells becomes a CITIZEN, subject to and protected by the law-of-the-land.

...privacy be damned--
Please explain this statement.

...until she can transfer her obligations to an institution/individual who would relieve her of her duty to the infant as its parent?
Transfer her obligations may be as simple as abandoning the child at a designated safe-haven.

Regardless, the only "obligation" she has is to adhere to the law-of-the-land.

I detect no logical incoherence in birth-right-citizenship.

nOW, on-the-other-hand, bestowing CITIZENSHIP on a blastocyst is a logical pile of spaghetti (and a personal-privacy nightmare).
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@3RU7AL
Yes.  100%.
And this precedes law, correct?



Here's our disconnect.  I maintain that the blastocyst/zygote/embryo/fetus is 100% mother's body.

Only when the cord is cut does that mass of cells become a CITIZEN, subject to and protected by the law-of-the-land.



This seems to be an unintentional straw-man (and an appeal to emotion).  The mass of cells that is 100% mother's body is subject to the mother's whim.  The mass of cells has the same legal status as a parasite or a tumor.

Why is she obligated to a foreign mass of cells and not her own, presuming the veracity of your premise? (And please don't state: inside = non-citizen; outside = citizen.) Speak to the nature of the obligation and the justification of its imposition.


Please explain this statement.
The privacy of which I speak is not in reference to physicality. I mean her finances and her labor, and her discretion in choosing those whom she provides it.

Transfer her obligations may be as simple as abandoning the child at a designated safe-haven.
My inquiry is not concerned with its simplicity, any more than "close your legs," albeit simple, is a concern worth entertaining for pro-life arguments. Why is the obligation imposed in the first place? Better yet, why ought it be imposed? Would you, 3RU7AL, who argues in favor a woman's privacy endorse the position that a mother bears an obligation to her child, and must transfer her obligation by legally sanctioned means?
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@Athias
Yes.  100%.
And this precedes law, correct?
Not necessarily.

In times and or lands where women are and or were legally considered property, then they have or would have no personal-right-to-privacy.
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@Athias
Why is she obligated to a foreign mass of cells and not her own, presuming the veracity of your premise?
She is subject to human parenting instincts (if she has them) and cultural norms (which inform the law) ONLY.

(And please don't state: inside = non-citizen; outside = citizen.)
It is a tumor and or parasite of the mother if the overwhelming majority of its biomass is the result of the food she ingests, up to and until that mass of cells can ingest its own food.

Speak to the nature of the obligation and the justification of its imposition.
I'm not sure what possible hypothetical extra-legal "obligation" you might be referring to.
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@Athias
The privacy of which I speak is not in reference to physicality. I mean her finances and her labor, and her discretion in choosing those whom she provides it.
Finances are currently not private.

Her labor is also not private.

Her discretion is protected because she has the right to refuse care by abandoning her child at a safe-haven.
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@Athias
Why is equality (via law) "fair"?
Have  you never heard the phrase 'all are equal in the eyes of the law.  Isnt there also a statue of some blindfolded lady holding a balancing scale.

Maybe you not familiar with law in USA.

2} equality via law is sought after because of humans desire for fairness aka fair play, via philosophical considerations of morality, by most humans, barring those humans who have no access to their empathetic centers of their brain,

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@Athias
Do you have a right to bodily autonomy?
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@Athias
It is a tumor and or parasite of the mother if the overwhelming majority of its biomass is the result of the food she ingests, up to and until that mass of cells can ingest its own food.
In the same way it is illegal to cut down a tree without a permit, but it is not illegal to crush an acorn.
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@ebuc
Have  you never heard the phrase 'all are equal in the eyes of the law.  Isnt there also a statue of some blindfolded lady holding a balancing scale.

That's not an answer.

Maybe you not familiar with law in USA.
I am familiar with law in the U.S.

equality via law is sought after because of humans desire for fairness aka fair play, via philosophical considerations of morality, by most humans, barring those humans who have no access to their empathetic centers of their brain,
You're merely repeating your previous statement; why is equality (via the law) fair?
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@3RU7AL
Not necessarily.

In times and or lands where women are and or were legally considered property, then they have or would have no personal-right-to-privacy.

Does your position reflect decisions of law?

In the same way it is illegal to cut down a tree without a permit, but it is not illegal to crush an acorn.
Would you, 3RU7AL, who argues in favor a woman's privacy endorse the position that a mother bears an obligation to her child, and must transfer her obligation by legally sanctioned means?
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@Athias
You're merely repeating your previous statement; why is equality (via the law) fair?Golden Rule Variations
You not making sense and now just seemingly wanting to play irrational, illogical  mind games.

It is humans attempt at being fair. And fairness stems from philosophy ergo morality.

You appear to be ignorant of both ergo you illogical irrational and repeated non-sensical response.  One of the places I learned morality was from the Rocky and Bullwinkle show on tv in the 60's.

Golden Rule Variations

The golden rule --do unto others as you would have them doonto you---- has
a common variation in many countries and religions. I wondered if there
were any other rules with such commonality e.g,

Is there a silver rule also? "Seek fair and just resolution with
compassion and empathy for those who violate the laws and moral codes of
humanity or its distinct tribes. "

Perhaps a wooden rule? Forgiveness by God is instantaneous, forgiveness
by humans takes time.

Or the bone rule? Eye for eye and toothe for a tooth. [im not sure if
any animals other than humans practice this concept]

Molecular rule? "Share not with your cousin what you would not have
them share with you."

Quantum rule? "Know that the uncertainty of mind, being common to all
humans, does not neccessitate chaos."

Space-time Rule? ---Pee-Here-Now is rendition of Ram Dass’sBe Here Now

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@ebuc
It is humans attempt at being fair. And fairness stems from philosophy ergo morality.
Once again, why is equality (via the law) fair? You've only stated that it's fair; I'm soliciting an explanation to the reason it's fair.



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@Athias
Once again, why is equality (via the law) fair? You've only stated that it's fair; I'm soliciting an explanation to the reason it's fair.
You need to begin with a dictionary and stop your childish mind games. Maybe a childrens dictionary and work your way to a mature adult dictionary.

You not making sense and now just seemingly wanting to play irrational, illogical  mind games.

It is humans attempt at being fair. And fairness stems from philosophy ergo morality.

You appear to be ignorant of both ergo you illogical irrational and repeated non-sensical response.  One of the places I learned morality was from the Rocky and Bullwinkle show on tv in the 60's.

Golden Rule Variations

The golden rule --do unto others as you would have them doonto you---- has
a common variation in many countries and religions. I wondered if there
were any other rules with such commonality e.g,

Is there a silver rule also? "Seek fair and just resolution with
compassion and empathy for those who violate the laws and moral codes of
humanity or its distinct tribes. "

Perhaps a wooden rule? Forgiveness by God is instantaneous, forgiveness
by humans takes time.

Or the bone rule? Eye for eye and toothe for a tooth. [im not sure if
any animals other than humans practice this concept]

Molecular rule? "Share not with your cousin what you would not have
them share with you."

Quantum rule? "Know that the uncertainty of mind, being common to all
humans, does not neccessitate chaos."

Space-time Rule? ---Pee-Here-Now is rendition of Ram Dass’sBe Here Now




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@ebuc
silver rule (plural silver rules)

  1. (ethics) The principle that one should not treat other people in the manner in which one would not want to be treated by them. [LINK]
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@Athias
Not necessarily.

In times and or lands where women are and or were legally considered property, then they have or would have no personal-right-to-privacy.
Does your position reflect decisions of law?
Yes, there are laws that strip certain people of basic human rights.

Are you asking if I personally agree with these laws?

Please be more specific.
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@Athias
In the same way it is illegal to cut down a tree without a permit, but it is not illegal to crush an acorn.
Would you, 3RU7AL, who argues in favor a woman's privacy endorse the position that a mother bears an obligation to her child, and must transfer her obligation by legally sanctioned means?
In the absence of law (and or law enforcement) like in the wild west, I would suggest that how a parent treats or mistreats or abandons their children is nobody else's business.

Historically, children have been considered property until they complete some cultural rite-of-passage at which point they are considered a citizen of the tribe.

The primal human value hierarchy is simple,

(1) Protect yourself.
(2) Protect your close friends and family.
(3) Protect your territory.

The primal human value hierarchy is both instinctive and intuitive.

And the primal human value hierarchy applies to physical security and privacy.
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@ebuc
You need to begin with a dictionary and stop your childish mind games. Maybe a childrens dictionary and work your way to a mature adult dictionary.
So your argument is a lexically semantic one; that is, equality is fair because the dictionary states as much.



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@3RU7AL
Yes, there are laws that strip certain people of basic human rights.

Are you asking if I personally agree with these laws?

Please be more specific.

I'm not inquiring as to that which the law can do; of that, I'm already aware; I'm inquiring as to that which the law ought to do, and yes that would solicit some personal content.

In the absence of law (and or law enforcement) like in the wild west, I would suggest that how a parent treats or mistreats or abandons their children is nobody else's business.

Historically, children have been considered property until they complete some cultural rite-of-passage at which point they are considered a citizen of the tribe.

The primal human value hierarchy is simple,

(1) Protect yourself.
(2) Protect your close friends and family.
(3) Protect your territory.

The primal human value hierarchy is both instinctive and intuitive.

And the primal human value hierarchy applies to physical security and privacy.
So any obligation a parent bears his or her child is at his or her discretion? Fair enough.
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@Athias
You need to begin with a dictionary and stop your childish mind games. Maybe a childrens dictionary and work your way to a mature adult dictionary.
So your argument is a lexically semantic one; that is, equality is fair because the dictionary states as much.
Social equality is a state of affairs in which all people within a specific society or isolated group have the same status in certain respects, possibly including civil rights, freedom of speech, property rights and equal access to certain social goods and social services. However, it may also include health equality, economic equality and other social securities. Social equality requires the absence of legally enforced social class or caste boundaries and the absence of discrimination motivated by an inalienable part of a person's identity.[1] For example, sex, gender, race, age, sexual orientation, origin, caste or class, income or property, language, religion, convictions, opinions, health or disability must absolutely not result in unequal treatment under the law and should not reduce opportunities unjustifiably.
Equal opportunities is interpreted as being judged by ability, which is compatible with a free market economy. Relevant problems are horizontal inequality − the inequality of two persons of same origin and ability and differing opportunities given to individuals − such as in (education) or by inherited capital. [LINK]

The definition of fairness seems to be tantamount to goodness.  It is very poorly defined and wholly subjective and based on a wide range of non-factual personal opinions.  The definition itself is basically an "appeal-to-common-sense" fallacy.
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@3RU7AL
The definition of fairness seems to be tantamount to goodness.  It is very poorly defined and wholly subjective and based on a wide range of non-factual personal opinions.  The definition itself is basically an "appeal-to-common-sense" fallacy.
Hence, I was soliciting his explanation given the poor definition of fairness. Ebuc is conflating "fairness" with "equality"; and he isn't wrong in citing a dictionary which does the same. However, I presumed there was more substance to his argument. My presumption was wrong.

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@Athias
So any obligation a parent bears his or her child is at his or her discretion? Fair enough.
Some mammals take care of their young.

Some mammals abandon their young, typically the runt starves.

Some mammals (even rabbits) eat their young.

All of these behaviors are predicated on instinct.

I believe our legal AXIOMS should (naturally and ideally) conform to,

(1) Protect yourself.

A citizen's body is sacrosanct.

A citizen's personal information is sacrosanct.

(2) Protect your close friends and family.

Activities and transactions between close friends and family members is sacrosanct.

The information you share with your close friends and family members is sacrosanct.

(3) Protect your territory.

A citizen's personal real-estate-property is sacrosanct.

The information concerning activities and or other property that may or may not be located on a citizen's real-estate-property should only be public insofar as those activities and or other property can be observed from outside that citizen's real-estate-property line.

That being said, I also strongly believe in following the letter of the law-of-the-land.
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@Athias
So your argument is a lexically semantic one; that is, equality is fair because the dictionary states as much.
Commoning to common agreement of definition of word/terms  is the starting place.

That you cannot connect 'equality' to fairness shows you inability to have rational, logical common sense and mature discussion ergo unnecessary mind games is immature childs game is what your playing.

Even a childs dictionary may connect equality and fairness even when you cannot. 

It is humans attempt at being fair. And fairness stems from philosophy ergo morality.

You appear to be ignorant of both ergo you illogical irrational and repeated non-sensical response.  One of the places I learned morality was from the Rocky and Bullwinkle show on tv in the 60's.

Golden Rule Variations

The golden rule --do unto others as you would have them doonto you---- has
a common variation in many countries and religions. I wondered if there
were any other rules with such commonality e.g,

Is there a silver rule also? "Seek fair and just resolution with
compassion and empathy for those who violate the laws and moral codes of
humanity or its distinct tribes. "

Perhaps a wooden rule? Forgiveness by God is instantaneous, forgiveness
by humans takes time.

Or the bone rule? Eye for eye and toothe for a tooth. [im not sure if
any animals other than humans practice this concept]

Molecular rule? "Share not with your cousin what you would not have
them share with you."

Quantum rule? "Know that the uncertainty of mind, being common to all
humans, does not neccessitate chaos."

Space-time Rule? ---Pee-Here-Now is rendition of Ram Dass’sBe Here Now

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@3RU7AL
1.(ethics) The principle that one should not treat other people in the manner in which one would not want to be treated by them. [LINK]
Philosophy > morality > ethics > laws in the eyes of justice/fairness.

Dont do the crime if you cant do the time is about cause and effect even if the resultant may be to stiff ergo unfair to whatever degree.


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@3RU7AL
Some mammals take care of their young.

Some mammals abandon their young, typically the runt starves.

Some mammals (even rabbits) eat their young.

All of these behaviors are predicated on instinct.

I believe our legal AXIOMS should (naturally and ideally) conform to,

(1) Protect yourself.

A citizen's body is sacrosanct.

A citizen's personal information is sacrosanct.

(2) Protect your close friends and family.

Activities and transactions between close friends and family members is sacrosanct.

The information you share with your close friends and family members is sacrosanct.

(3) Protect your territory.

A citizen's personal real-estate-property is sacrosanct.

The information concerning activities and or other property that may or may not be located should only be public insofar as those activities and or other property can be observed from outside a citizen's real-estate-property line.

That being said, I also strongly believe in following the letter of the law-of-the-land.
I don't have many ways in which to counter your statements (not that I would since I cant argue against the fact that you believe everything you just listed.) That being said, I'll state this:

I argue that all individuals are sovereign, and that the laws of the lands are currently subverting them. Instead of letting law reflect a moral economy, common law especially deludes groups into Hobbesian traps, creating a fundamentally adversarial environment. And in glorious contradiction, the true nature of man as Hobbes would argue, is not excluded from those who'd presume to govern. In the context of this discussion, I do not argue that woman has a right to her person because the law legislates it, but because she's a sovereign individual. More to the point, in any interaction between individuals, to maximize--and I'm using this term particularly--any transaction conducted between them, their self-interest ought to/must be respected. Self-interest is the starting point to any interaction.

Furthermore, I'm not going to argue that the zygote/embryo/fetus isn't a life, not only because I firmly believe that is not the case, but also it isn't necessary to sustain consistently a pro-choice position. That is, whether one concedes that the zygote/embryo/fetus is a life, it doesn't have a right to its mother's womb. Gestation is its mother's gift, not the unborn child's entitlement. By the same token, I would also argue that rearing is its mother's and/or father's gift, not the infant/child/adolescent's entitlement. While some would argue that the termination of pregnancy is tantamount to murder, I would argue otherwise. While in some cases, I'd argue it is, in the case where it's merely expelled, the death of the fetus isn't a result of its mother's malice aforethought, but the undeveloped physiology of the zygote/embryo/fetus. The fetus's incapacity to survive outside of its mother's womb is an unfortunate consequence of nature.

The right to one's person is derivative of individual sovereignty; to undermine any tenet of said principle is tantamount to undermining the principle in its entirety. So despite my personal objection to abortion itself, my sustenance of the pro-choice position is a necessity to my adherence to individual sovereignty.
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Commoning to common agreement of definition of word/terms  is the starting place.

That you cannot connect 'equality' to fairness shows you inability to have rational, logical common sense and mature discussion ergo unnecessary mind games is immature childs game is what your playing.

You: Equality is fair.
I: Why is equality fair?
You: Fair is defined as equal.

Your only contribution to a rational, logical, common sense, and mature discussion is circular reasoning/tautology.
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@Athias
Do you have a right to bodily autonomy?
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@Athias
I don't have many ways in which to counter your statements (not that I would since I cant argue against the fact that you believe everything you just listed.) That being said, I'll state this:

I argue that all individuals are sovereign,
I believe we are in general agreement on this point.

...and that the laws of the lands are currently subverting them.
I believe we are in general agreement on this point.

Instead of letting law reflect a moral economy, common law especially deludes groups into Hobbesian traps, creating a fundamentally adversarial environment.
I believe we are in general agreement on this point.

And in glorious contradiction, the true nature of man as Hobbes would argue, is not excluded from those who'd presume to govern. In the context of this discussion, I do not argue that woman has a right to her person because the law legislates it, but because she's a sovereign individual.

I believe we are in general agreement on this point.

However, I am unclear as to where you believe this individual-sovereignty comes from?

More to the point, in any interaction between individuals, to maximize--and I'm using this term particularly--any transaction conducted between them, their self-interest ought to/must be respected. Self-interest is the starting point to any interaction.
Primal human law #1

(1) Protect yourself.

Furthermore, I'm not going to argue that the zygote/embryo/fetus isn't a life,
This seems to be an unintentional a straw-man.  I've never once claimed that the zygote/embryo/fetus isn't alive.  I've also not claimed that it's not distinguishable from the host, it's like a parasite or a tumor.  Parasites and tumors are very much alive and distinguishable from the host. 

What they do not have is citizenship.

...not only because I firmly believe that is not the case, but also it isn't necessary to sustain consistently a pro-choice position.
Ok, I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.

That is, whether one concedes that the zygote/embryo/fetus is a life [like a tumor or a parasite], it doesn't have a right to its mother's womb. 
I believe we are in general agreement on this point.

Gestation is its mother's gift, not the unborn child's entitlement.
I believe we are in general agreement on this point.

By the same token, I would also argue that rearing is its mother's and/or father's gift, not the infant/child/adolescent's entitlement. 
I believe we are in general agreement on this point.

While some would argue that the termination of pregnancy is tantamount to murder, I would argue otherwise. While in some cases, I'd argue it is, in the case where it's merely expelled, the death of the fetus isn't a result of its mother's malice aforethought, but the undeveloped physiology of the zygote/embryo/fetus. The fetus's incapacity to survive outside of its mother's womb is an unfortunate consequence of nature.
I believe we are in general agreement on this point.

The right to one's person is derivative of individual sovereignty;
Does a blastocyst/zygote/embryo/fetus have any right to one's person?  At what point and by what authority do the gain and or earn that right?

...to undermine any tenet of said principle is tantamount to undermining the principle in its entirety.
Is this principle you're referring to "the right to one's person"?

So despite my personal objection to abortion itself, my sustenance of the pro-choice position is a necessity to my adherence to individual sovereignty.
That seems logical.  The point isn't whether or not any majority of individuals thinks abortion is "good" or "bad", the point is instead that it's nobody's business except for each individual sovereign mother.

And of course, I have to mention that "pro-life" as an AXIOM is a logical bowl-of-spaghetti.
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@3RU7AL
However, I am unclear as to where you believe this individual-sovereignty comes from?
From individuals. It's an argument premised on an observation of the human condition.


I've never once claimed that the zygote/embryo/fetus isn't alive.

I never stated that you did, otherwise I would've stated you argued it. It's in reference to a general argument sustained by many of those who maintain a pro-choice position.

Ok, I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.
In essence, the argument over whether the zygote, embryo, fetus is a life is irrelevant in the context of individuals rights. Live or not, it doesn't have any entitlement to its mothers womb.

Does a blastocyst/zygote/embryo/fetus have any right to one's person?  At what point and by what authority do the gain and or earn that right?
Not authority; morality. It's gained through the adherence of individualist philosophy. So yes, the zygote/embryo/fetus has a right to its person just as much as an infant, child, adolescent, and adult does.

Is this principle you're referring to "the right to one's person"?
Individual sovereignty is the principle to which I refer.

The point is instead that it's nobody's business except for each individual sovereign mother.
And this must always be the case, even after gestation.

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@Athias
Does a blastocyst/zygote/embryo/fetus have any right to one's person?  At what point and by what authority do the gain and or earn that right?
Not authority; morality. It's gained through the adherence of individualist philosophy. So yes, the zygote/embryo/fetus has a right to its person just as much as an infant, child, adolescent, and adult does.
Ok, so according to this same principle, would you consider it moral to deport a sovereign-individual to a well-known, highly dangerous, potentially deadly geographic area (against their will)?
3RU7AL
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@Athias
The point is instead that it's nobody's business except for each individual sovereign mother.
And this must always be the case, even after gestation.
We seem to have reached some significant common-ground.