Anti-Abortion = Anti-Personal-Privacy

Author: 3RU7AL

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Athias
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@3RU7AL
Ok, so according to this same principle, would you consider it moral to deport a sovereign-individual to a well-known, highly dangerous, potentially deadly geographic area (against their will)?
If an individual has purchased land, or entered an arrangement where he or she would either rent or mortgage a home, then no institution (even government) should be justifiable in deporting said individual regardless of destination so long as the proprietorship or contract is maintained. With that said, individuals do have the capacity to expel anyone from their lands regardless of the consequences the expelled may face as a result of not being on their lands.

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@Athias
If an individual has purchased land, or entered an arrangement where he or she would either rent or mortgage a home, then no institution (even government) should be justifiable in deporting said individual regardless of destination so long as the proprietorship or contract is maintained. With that said, individuals do have the capacity to expel anyone from their lands regardless of the consequences the expelled may face as a result of not being on their lands.
Ok, so if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that individual land owners can expel people from their private real-estate-property at any time and for any reason they see fit.

However, no institution, including government should be able to deport anyone who owns or rents a home or apartment.

Is there any overlap?

Would an individual, who owns an apartment building be justified in expelling a tenant at any time and for any reason?

Or are you suggesting that only guests or intruders who have not signed an agreement with the land owner can be expelled at any time and for any reason?

And furthermore, would a government or other land owning institution be justified in deporting the homeless and perhaps simply drop them off-shore (not on land)?

Or perhaps, throw stowaways overboard?
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@3RU7AL
Would an individual, who owns an apartment building be justified in expelling a tenant at any time and for any reason?
Yes. By that same token, a tenant can leave at will even if the landlord attempts to have him or her stay.

Or are you suggesting that only guests or intruders who have not signed an agreement with the land owner can be expelled at any time and for any reason?
No. All contracts and transactions must be willfully entered and sustained less they violate individual sovereignty. Hence, each party can enter or exit at will. If there's a dispute, they can either settle it themselves or employ the services of an outside party who'll help them reach a resolution. Neither party ought to coerce the other into any arrangement.

And furthermore, would a government or other land owning institution be justified in deporting the homeless and perhaps simply drop them off-shore (not on land)?
The government isn't justified in anything. The government appropriates lands with stolen money. Not to mention, it doesn't follow its own rules of proprietorship. Now if a private institution happened to own all the land in a domain and has rented it to several thousand occupants, would he or she be justified in expelling a person who doesn't pay rent, even if the expulsion meant that person had no option but to learn how to swim so to speak? Yes.

Or perhaps, throw stowaways overboard?
That's at the discretion of the ship's owner and/or captain.
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@Athias
Or perhaps, throw stowaways overboard?
That's at the discretion of the ship's owner and/or captain.
That makes sense.  It's all about jurisdiction and sovereignty.  The Castle Doctrine.

Human rights activists are must busy-bodies who should mind their own business.

The government isn't justified in anything.
Please explain.

The government appropriates lands with stolen money.
I'm pretty sure the government appropriates lands with force.

And they create money out of thin air, so there's no need for them to steal it.
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@3RU7AL
Human rights activists are must busy-bodies who should mind their own business.
What's the human right being violated in the proprietor's exercise of his or her discretion?

Please explain.
Government is at its core a coercive hegemony which undermines the discretion of individuals to act in accordance to his or her self-interests. There are no "rights" with government; only privileges. Even the process by which governments are selected (democracy, dictatorship, monarchy--which is still a dictatorship, etc) focus on the elimination of individual dissent. Every practice of government therefore is an extension of this undermining if a single individual cannot exit government.

I'm pretty sure the government appropriates lands with force.
That, too.

And they create money out of thin air, so there's no need for them to steal it.
There's plenty of need for them to steal it. The money is not printed out thin-air; rather than a gold-standard, government implements a debt-standard where tax-paying citizens are the collateral. And because of the fourteenth amendment, tax paying citizens are legally bound to the resolution of this debt. What happens when a citizens refuse to pay his or her taxes? With what is law the law codified?
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@Athias
Human rights activists are just busy-bodies who should mind their own business.
What's the human right being violated in the proprietor's exercise of his or her discretion?
The perceived right of humans to, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and the perceived right to "a fair and expedient trial".

What we seem to be philosophically funneling down to is a society structure similar to the old feudal-system where land (and or boat) owners hold all the cards and everyone else exists at their whim (under the implicit threat of banishment).

Perhaps we should consider some hypothetical system where every citizen is assigned (immutable, non-transferable) ownership of some small, fertile, plot of land.
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@Athias
Please explain.
Government is at its core a coercive hegemony which undermines the discretion of individuals to act in accordance to his or her self-interests. There are no "rights" with government; only privileges. Even the process by which governments are selected (democracy, dictatorship, monarchy--which is still a dictatorship, etc) focus on the elimination of individual dissent. Every practice of government therefore is an extension of this undermining if a single individual cannot exit government.
The entire basis (justification), the primary AXIOM of government is (should be, at least hypothetically) to "serve and protect" (by setting policies and enforcing laws that "serve and protect" the interests of its individual citizens).

The "problem" is that every Organization is an Organism.  And Organisms are AXIOMATICALLY self-interested and self-protecting.

Self-regulation inevitably results in a conflict-of-interest.  The government, cannot be self-regulating.  Who watches the watchers?

For example, "The Policeman's Dilemma", which is that, ostensibly, the primary job of a police force is to reduce crime.  But if they are successful in reducing crime, their budget and staff are cut proportionately.

HOWeVEr, if crime INCREASES (or the mere threat of and or the general fear of crime increases), then both their budget and staff (and their associated power and influence within the community) INCREASE proportionately.

And as such, they would appear to have inherently contradictory incentives.
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@Athias
And they create money out of thin air, so there's no need for them to steal it.
There's plenty of need for them to steal it. The money is not printed out thin-air; rather than a gold-standard, government implements a debt-standard where tax-paying citizens are the collateral. And because of the fourteenth amendment, tax paying citizens are legally bound to the resolution of this debt. What happens when a citizens refuse to pay his or her taxes? With what is law the law codified?
Fiat money is not owned by individuals.

It is held by individuals and it is used by individuals, but it is OWNED by the issuer (either the state itself or by its authorized agents).

The interesting part is that the Founding Fathers anticipated this wage-slavery system,

“No State shall … coin money; emit bills of credit; [or] make any Thing but gold and silver coin a Tender in Payment of Debts[.]” Art. I, sec. 10, cl. 1.

  1. The basic unit is the dollar, a silver coin containing 371.25 grains of pure silver.
  2. Only gold or silver coins and currency (specie-backed banknotes) can be legal tender.
  3. No state may issue coins or currency.
  4. No one may counterfeit U.S. Government-issued coins or currency.
  5. Fiat money is forbidden.
The Supreme Court, in its famous Legal Tender and Gold Clause Cases, ruled that Congress has ‘plenary power’ to issue fiat money and dictate its value, pursuant to its power to ‘regulate the value’ of foreign and domestic coin. This interpretation is erroneous. Congress has no such ‘plenary’ power. Its power to regulate the value of gold and silver coins is a limited power that exists for the limited purpose of ensuring that both kinds of coin remain in circulation, that is, to counteract Gresham’s Law. [LINK]
Athias
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@3RU7AL
The perceived right of humans to, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and the perceived right to "a fair and expedient trial".

What we seem to be philosophically funneling down to is a society structure similar to the old feudal-system where land (and or boat) owners hold all the cards and everyone else exists at their whim (under the implicit threat of banishment).

Perhaps we should consider some hypothetical system where every citizen is assigned (immutable, non-transferable) ownership of some small, fertile, plot of land.
Who is the "everyone else"? Are you under the presumption that land ownership in the absence of government would be concentrated among a select few?

The entire basis (justification), the primary AXIOM of government is (should be, at least hypothetically) to "serve and protect" (by setting policies and enforcing laws that "serve and protect" the interests of its individual citizens).

The "problem" is that every Organization is an Organism.  And Organisms are AXIOMATICALLY self-interested and self-protecting.

Self-regulation inevitably results in a conflict-of-interest.  The government, cannot be self-regulating.  Who watches the watchers?

For example, "The Policeman's Dilemma", which is that, ostensibly, the primary job of a police force is to reduce crime.  But if they are successful in reducing crime, their budget and staff are cut proportionately.

HOWeVEr, if crime INCREASES (or the mere threat of and or the general fear of crime increases), then both their budget and staff (and their associated power and influence within the community) INCREASE proportionately.

And as such, they would appear to have inherently contradictory incentives.
No, the basis for government is rule. "Serve and protect" is nothing more than propaganda. If that were its purpose, it would act as a private contractor, not an overly-centralized public institution. The only difference between modern government (democracy) and, let's say, feudalism is that the populace believes its ingratiated in the hegemony. Governments historically have sought one thing: rule.

Fiat money is not owned by individuals.

It is held by individuals and it is used by individuals, but it is OWNED by the issuer (either the state itself or by its authorized agents).

The interesting part is that the Founding Fathers anticipated this wage-slavery system,

“No State shall … coin money; emit bills of credit; [or] make any Thing but gold and silver coin a Tender in Payment of Debts[.]” Art. I, sec. 10, cl. 1.

  1. The basic unit is the dollar, a silver coin containing 371.25 grains of pure silver.
  2. Only gold or silver coins and currency (specie-backed banknotes) can be legal tender.
  3. No state may issue coins or currency.
  4. No one may counterfeit U.S. Government-issued coins or currency.
  5. Fiat money is forbidden.
The Supreme Court, in its famous Legal Tender and Gold Clause Cases, ruled that Congress has ‘plenary power’ to issue fiat money and dictate its value, pursuant to its power to ‘regulate the value’ of foreign and domestic coin. This interpretation is erroneous. Congress has no such ‘plenary’ power. Its power to regulate the value of gold and silver coins is a limited power that exists for the limited purpose of ensuring that both kinds of coin remain in circulation, that is, to counteract Gresham’s Law. [LINK]
Of that I'm already aware. Fiat is but a mere note of debt. The money to which fiat is indexed is owned by individuals. And when I say that tax-paying individuals are collateral, I'm not speaking of recompense in the form of fiat money (which may be backed at best by 10% of capital reserve) I'm speaking of recompense in the form of labor. Each tax-paying citizen bears a share of public debt, and they must "work it off." That is, in practice, backing the fiat.
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@Athias
Perhaps we should consider some hypothetical system where every citizen is assigned (immutable, non-transferable) ownership of some small, fertile, plot of land.
Who is the "everyone else"? Are you under the presumption that land ownership in the absence of government would be concentrated among a select few?
Isn't it always?  In any system, there are winners and losers.  The winners will purchase more land, and kick out anyone they dislike.  And then buy more land.
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@Athias
And as such, they would appear to have inherently contradictory incentives.
No, the basis for government is rule.
So, pure force.  No wonder they are power-hungry.

"Serve and protect" is nothing more than propaganda. If that were its purpose, it would act as a private contractor, not an overly-centralized public institution.
Whether or not its administered by a "private contractor" or not, it will inevitably become "an overly-centralized institution".

The only difference between modern government (democracy) and, let's say, feudalism is that the populace believes its ingratiated in the hegemony. Governments historically have sought one thing: rule.
Eh, I'm pretty sure the original intent, the original use-case for government was to adjudicate disputes between citizens and to provide public roads and protect public resources like water and to protect citizens from foreign invasion and to protect property rights so the powerful (ranchers and or railroads) can't simply take your land by force.

If government itself was not necessary, we'd all be living in a wild-west movie.
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@Athias
Of that I'm already aware. Fiat is but a mere note of debt. The money to which fiat is indexed is owned by individuals. And when I say that tax-paying individuals are collateral, I'm not speaking of recompense in the form of fiat money (which may be backed at best by 10% of capital reserve) I'm speaking of recompense in the form of labor. Each tax-paying citizen bears a share of public debt, and they must "work it off." That is, in practice, backing the fiat.
You're describing wage-slavery.

But it's even worse than that.

The whole idea of "indian-reservations" was to allow native Americans to continue to live their ancestral lifestyle and traditions.

The original borders of these reservations were actually quite expansive, and the inhabitants could hypothetically "live off the land". 

However, over time these borders have been significantly reduced, moved to infertile soil, critical wildlife like wild buffalo have been eradicated (by non-native invaders), tribes have been moved away from their ancestral climates where their traditions applied (different plants, animals and terrain), and in many cases their lands have been polluted by industrial waste, and now, stripped of their ability to provide for themselves as they have for literally thousands of years, they are forced to abandon these traditions and work for fiat.

A similar assault has been made on farmers. [LINK]
ebuc
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@Athias
Your only contribution to a rational, logical, common sense, and mature discussion is circular reasoning/tautology.
Again your lack the grasp of synonyms between two or more words ergo you still playing mind games to avoid the truth of connecting equality to fairness.  Please share when you graduate from grade school.
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@ebuc
Please share your description or an example of what you believe social equality looks like in practice.

Please share your description or an example of what you believe social fairness looks like in practice.
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@3RU7AL
Please share your description or an example of what you believe social equality looks like in practice. Please share your description or an example of what you believe social fairness looks like in practice.
I stated repeatedly to Athias, that humans make attempts at fairness/equality via laws, or gifts or whatever works for those humans their circumstances.

It is fair to say  --truth/fact--  that two electrons are equal to each other in property, not their spacial location.

It is fair to say that, Earth and Jupiter are both planets ergo equal in one respect and  of unequal to size.

It is fair to say that man and woman are equal in species yet not equal genetically is all their coding.

It is fair to say that equality exists a word to describle aparent attempting  fairness  ---repeating my above---   to two or more of her children.

Equality and fairness fair play is about balance and all three words are synoyms, or so I would guess.  I dunno as Ive not checked any dictionaries on this latter conjectrure.




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@Athias
Eh, I'm pretty sure the original intent, the original use-case for government was to adjudicate disputes between citizens and to provide public roads and protect public resources like water and to protect citizens from foreign invasion and to protect property rights so the powerful (ranchers and or railroads) can't simply take your land by force.
The government should act as a referee.

Now imagine if you had a sports league where the most powerful teams openly advocated eliminating referees.

wHY do you think they would do that??

Or if they promised referee's well paying jobs when they retired from being referees.

wHY do you think they would do that??

Or if they managed to get their former coaches and or other personnel and or their relatives installed as referees to officiate their own games.

wHY do you think they would do that??

Imagine if certain teams sponsored extravagant "educational" seminars for referees that emphasized how great their players were and how much their team contributes to community spirit and local business, especially when they win games.  When we win, our whole town wins!

THE "PROBLEM" ISN'T THE REFEREES THEMSELVES, OR EVEN THE IDEA OF REFEREES IN GENERAL.

THE "PROBLEM" IS CORRUPTION. [LINK]
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@ebuc
Equality and fairness fair play is about balance and all three words are synoyms, or so I would guess.  I dunno as Ive not checked any dictionaries on this latter conjectrure.
First of all, dictionaries are not authoritative, they are merely descriptions of general usage.

Secondly, I'm less interested in definitions and much more interested in your idea of how EQUALITY should be applied or encouraged in a society.

It is my understanding that EQUALITY and FREEDOM are necessarily inversely proportional.

That is to say, the more EQUALITY you impose, the less FREEDOM individuals can exercise.

Although it is also important to note that unbridled FREEDOM inevitably leads to AUTOCRACY.

So perhaps there's some hypothetical "sweet-spot" we can generally agree on between the two options.
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@3RU7AL
First of all, dictionaries are not authoritative, they are merely descriptions of general usage.
I stated to Athias, specifically, as a place for starters they need to begin.

Secondly, I'm less interested in definitions and much more interested in your idea of how EQUALITY should be applied or encouraged in a society.

I gave you specific examples, you ask for and you did not address so I'm left to assume I satisfied you criteria on those accounts, however, just in case you still not clear I do once again with hopefully more clarity;

1} a mother, to fair to her two children, cuts a brownie into two seemingly equal size pieces,

ergo my previous givens again, as follows and hope that I'm clear and on point.  Freedom is sperate word and my feeling is less synonminous than equal and fairness are to ecah other;
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It is fair to say  --truth/fact--  that two electrons are equal to each other in property, not their spacial location.

It is fair to say that, Earth and Jupiter are both planets ergo equal in one respect and  of unequal to size.

It is fair to say that man and woman are equal in species yet not equal genetically is all their coding.

It is fair to say that equality exists a word to describe aparent attempting  fairness  ---repeating my above---   to two or more of her children.

Equality and fairness fair play is about balance and all three words are synoyms, or so I would guess.  I dunno as Ive not checked any dictionaries on this latter conjecture.

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@ebuc
1} a mother, to fair to her two children, cuts a brownie into two seemingly equal size pieces,
How would you apply this principle to a town, a city, and or an entire country or planet?

ergo my previous givens again, as follows and hope that I'm clear and on point.  Freedom is sperate word and my feeling is less synonminous than equal and fairness are to ecah other;
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I'm not suggesting that freedom and equality are synonyms.  I am suggesting that they are both generally considered desirable.

It is fair to say  --truth/fact--  that two electrons are equal to each other in property, not their spacial location.
How would you apply this principle to a town, a city, and or an entire country or planet?

It is fair to say that, Earth and Jupiter are both planets ergo equal in one respect and  of unequal to size.
How would you apply this principle to a town, a city, and or an entire country or planet?

It is fair to say that man and woman are equal in species yet not equal genetically is all their coding.
How would you apply this principle to a town, a city, and or an entire country or planet?

It is fair to say that equality exists a word to describe aparent attempting  fairness  ---repeating my above---   to two or more of her children.
How would you apply this principle to a town, a city, and or an entire country or planet?

Equality and fairness fair play is about balance and all three words are synoyms, or so I would guess.  I dunno as Ive not checked any dictionaries on this latter conjecture.
I'm pretty certain nobody is disputing these terms are generally considered synonymous. 

THAT'S WHY DESCRIBING ONE WITH EITHER OF THE OTHERS IS NONSENSICAL.
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@3RU7AL
How would you apply this principle to a town, a city, and or an entire country or planet?
Simple easy answer --within context of a complex humanity---is two adult single people get approximately equal square space of shelter/dwelling in a humanity where the whole is concerned with all of its parts{ each individual }. Yes, each individual may their own specific needs, that, humanity may not be able to address, or only partially address, over what ever periods of time

Ditto{ apply } the above concepts to food, medical, couples, families so on and so on.   

I'm not suggesting that freedom and equality are synonyms.  I am suggesting that they are both generally considered desirable.
Seprate issue from conversational back and forth I was having with Athias. You introduced "freedom" into the conversation. Niether Athias or I were even considering that word. Just so were clear.

I'm pretty certain nobody is disputing these terms are generally considered synonymous. 
Athias was not disputing them, Athias refuses to even consider them as synonyms or connected in any way/setting/format of rational, logical common sense ergo Athias is just playing childish mind games.  If you dont see that, then not sure what I can say to make clarity for you.

THAT'S WHY DESCRIBING ONE WITH EITHER OF THE OTHERS IS NONSENSICAL.
Synonyms are approxmate equality of definition, i.e. they are not exactly the same.  Not sure why your even going off on this avenue.

Ive been very clear and none of disputed any of my comments as stated. Even Athias is not disputing just irrationally asking why fairness equals equality.
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@ebuc
I stated to Athias, specifically, as a place for starters they need to begin.
You're suggesting that they end where they began. Your argument is circular. Once again,

You: People are seeking fairness through equality.
I: Why is equality (via the law) fair?
You: Fair and equal are synonymous.

Essentially you're only stating that "being equal" is being equal. Nothing more, nothing less.