Jesus is Lord?

Author: Paul

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#121
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@Paul
Actually, theologians have been debating this for thousands of years. In fact, I'm pretty sure this debate originated in theology.

Even today, there is still a debate about it. In the protestant churches, the methodists are said to believe more toward free will while the presbyterians tend to lean more towards determinism. I use those examples because I think those churches tend to make it an issue. 


We experience a type of free will, in the sense that we seem to have choices. Do we really? I don't know. Like I said, I lean more towards the idea that everything is determined. To me it is what naturally follows from omnipotence.

Also, my personal faith very much has a great deal to do with accepting this determinism as a reality. There is the way I see things, and then there is the way that things actually are. Even my desire to abide in the way things actually are is a product of determism. Did I have any control over the events in my life that sculpted me to be who I am today? There are so many things going on. What I myself do, no matter how self willed it seems to be, is very minimal compared to the entire universe pressing down to make my experience possible.

So yeah, I don't believe that I defy physics. I guess that is really what I'm getting at.

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@Mopac
So even before existence your god determined whether you would end up in heaven or hell and there's nothing you can do about it. Whatever it is that you do you were always going to do, you can pretend that your life will gain you the reward of heaven your entire life and it makes no difference, you can be the best you can possibly be and it makes no difference, if before existence your god sentenced you to hell then you're going to hell.
Why do you bother preaching and allegedly trying to save people when you can't make a skeric of difference?
Joe Blogs is destined for heaven, he's a drug pusher if you knew him you would try to save him, but you don't and he's still saved or you do and he's still saved, your efforts were meaningless hubris on your part.
Determinism means nobody can be saved and whatever you do in life is exactly what you HAVE to do.
Murder someone Don't sweat it, before existence you were given a ticket to heaven.
#123
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@disgusted
I think you are projecting your own hubris on to me. 

You are, after all, finding the idea that you are not mightier than the laws of physics obnoxious.




#124
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@Mopac
Your god doesn't exist so says physics. Stop trying to fool yourself.
Don't want to discuss your determinism? Prefer changing the subject?
#125
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No one is talking about gods except you.


10 days later

#126
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@Paul
Post 6: So Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost are all the same thing?

If that is the case why did Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" as if he was speaking to a different person?

First, God is not a thing but a personal being. Second, the three are different Persons, all one in unity and essence or nature. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. Third, since a man, Adam, sinned against God and caused the Fall a Man was needed to restore the relationship with God by meeting His righteous requirements. Thus, God the Son took on human form (Philippians 2:6-8)

Philippians 2:6-8 (NASB)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

If you could live a righteous life, one without sin, before God you would have no need of Jesus' sacrifice. You would not need a sacrifice of a righteous life lived before God be done in your place, to satisfied God's righteous standard. Since you have not lived the righteous life then you need to pay the penalty or have someone righteous offer to pay it in your place. That is why the Son, in the form of a man, Jesus, did it for you, if you will believe and trust that sacrifice.

So, to fulfill the requirements God has laid down for human beings the Son became human and had to act in the capacity of a human being in meeting all the requirements of the Law. He could not use His godly attributes otherwise a human would not have fulfilled what God requires/d of human beings.

Acting in His capacity as a Man, He could utter that saying, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?".

***

Post 63: Jesus is God does not divide God into two separate entities which has the advantage of avoiding any implications of polytheism.


The way I understand God is that what makes God who He is are the three distinct Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Just as I am human and you are human, and Mopac is human, so the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Just like you share with me the quality and essence of humanness, so the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all share the quality and essence of divinity.  I am not you, yet we are both human beings. We are of one nature, one humanity. God is of one nature, one godliness.  Neither is the Father the Son, yet they are both God. You and I are limited in knowledge, we have a beginning in time, are not everywhere present. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in unity, one in power. Each Person is eternal existing.

So there are not three Gods just like there are not three humanities. The true essences of our humanity are our human attributes. The true essence of God is His godly attributes.

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#127
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Yes it is very handy to be able to explain away what ever you like with logic you can just make up from the fantasy world you believe you live in. The problem is you people can not agree on what anything means. Every individual these days has a different interpretation of their religion. This would have been very dangerous during the dark ages as most people alive to day would have likely been burned at the stake for not following the strict interpretation sanctioned by the church.

#128
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First, God is not a thing but a personal being. Second, the three are different Persons, all one in unity and essence or nature. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. Third, since a man, Adam, sinned against God and caused the Fall a Man was needed to restore the relationship with God by meeting His righteous requirements.
That is one of the most irrational, illogical, unreasonable and bizarre things I've ever read. It's unfathomable that people actually think they can make sense of it let alone believe in it.

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#129
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@Goldtop
Actually I think he described it pretty well.

God is a personal being.

God is strictly in one place and one place only, a thought in a human brain. Rocks do not think about god.

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@Paul
Yes it is very handy to be able to explain away what ever you like with logic you can just make up from the fantasy world you believe you live in. The problem is you people can not agree on what anything means. Every individual these days has a different interpretation of their religion. This would have been very dangerous during the dark ages as most people alive to day would have likely been burned at the stake for not following the strict interpretation sanctioned by the church.
Who is making up the fantasy world? An atheistic, secular worldview has conscious being arising from non-conscious, inorganic matter.

You equate a disagreement among many as no true explanation or interpretation. This is not necessarily true. You don't even mention the other alternative in order to poison the well. Some actually have a correct interpretation. 

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@Paul
Actually I think he described it pretty well.

God is a personal being.

God is strictly in one place and one place only, a thought in a human brain. Rocks do not think about god.

You misrepresent me. I never said God was in one place only. God is omnipresent. Nor did I state God is only a thought in a human brain. I actually see a difference between a mind and a brain. Another total misrepresentation. God exists despite whether your human mind believes in Him. 

#132
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Nor did I state God is only a thought in a human brain. I actually see a difference between a mind and a brain.

You may not have stated God is only a thought in a human brain, but no one, including you, has ever demonstrated God is anything but a thought in a human brain. The mind is a function of the brain.
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#133
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I actually see a difference between a mind and a brain.
Please tell us the difference between a mind and a brain.

By the way, believing there is a difference between mind and a brain has a name, it's called dualism.


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#134
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Who is making up the fantasy world?
That's what religion is, a fantasy world, which is occupied by people like you.

You yourself live in a fantasy world and that is your choice.

#135
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@Goldtop
Nor did I state God is only a thought in a human brain. I actually see a difference between a mind and a brain.

You may not have stated God is only a thought in a human brain, but no one, including you, has ever demonstrated God is anything but a thought in a human brain. The mind is a function of the brain.

I have never stated that God is ONLY a thought of the human brain, a figment of our imagination, but I point out compelling evidence, whether you want to believe it or dismiss it. That is between you and God and I leave it with Him for He knows best. The existence of God has been/is obvious to a majority of people throughout the course of human history. They look at the universe and reason it must be the work of a Creator God. Unfortunately, many people do not worship God as He is. They have molded God into what they want Him to be. Thus, a myriad of world religions.

#136
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@Paul
I actually see a difference between a mind and a brain.
Please tell us the difference between a mind and a brain.

By the way, believing there is a difference between mind and a brain has a name, it's called dualism.

A brain is the physical housing of the mind. The mind contains the inner qualities of a person, of what makes them who they are. A brain has a physical shape, a mind does not. You can physically touch a brain, you cannot a mind. Mental properties, such as concepts (i.e., the concept of twoness) are not physical in nature. The concept of goodness is not physical in its nature. You can't grab hold of goodness or twoness or logic for that matter. The laws of identity are not physical in nature, yet you could not make sense of anything without engaging/using them. Grab hold of a good idea or smell twoness for me. You can't because they are not physical in nature. There is a difference between physical/quantitative things and abstract/qualitative values, just like there is a difference between a brain and a mind.  


#137
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@Paul
Who is making up the fantasy world?
That's what religion is, a fantasy world, which is occupied by people like you.

You yourself live in a fantasy world and that is your choice.

Man-made religion is that, but a living relationship with God is different, where you get to know God as a Person by His thoughts and actions just like you get to know your wife through her inner qualities and how she expresses herself that makes her different than any other person. That is what Christians call a personal relationship and it is a personal experience. There is also the evidential that confirms the truth of God. Since it is His creation we would expect to find that what He tells us is true. History is a reasonable and logical confirmation of His word, something that the unbeliever is very unaware of and will make every effort to avoid investigating. How often have I invited the unbeliever to examine prophecy as it relates to history as a verification of this reason and logic?  They make up every excuse they can think of.

#138
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@PGA2.0

God exists despite whether your human mind believes in Him. 

Prove it.
#139
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God exists despite whether your human mind believes in Him. 

Prove it.

What would you accept as proof?

Proof
: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b: the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
2obsolete : EXPERIENCE
3: something that induces certainty or establishes validity
4archaic : the quality or state of having been tested or tried especially : unyielding hardness
5: evidence operating to determine the finding or judgment of a tribunal
6aplural proofs or proof : a copy (as of typeset text) made for examination or correction
b: a test impression of an engraving, etching, or lithograph
c: a coin that is struck from a highly polished die on a polished planchet, is not intended for circulation, and sometimes differs in metallic content from coins of identical design struck for circulation
d: a test photographic print made from a negative
7: a test applied to articles or substances to determine whether they are of standard or satisfactory quality

The funny thing is that as soon as I started to give evidence you would doubt it.
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@PGA2.0
Try providing evidence and we'll see if I accept it, so far no evidence has been presented.
What proof would I accept? I'd accept proof, you don't have any that's why you equivocate, obfuscate and pontificate.
Fantasy, make believe and wishful thinking are all you can produce as "proof" and they don't count.
#141
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@disgusted
The funny thing about proof is that if someone rejects all evidence, they can say "There is no proof!" And not be lying because as as long as their mind hasn't been changed, it cannot be said that something had been provennto them.


In other words, proof is subjective. If someone refuses to change their mind, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, they can simply arbitrarily reject all of it and laugh like a madman going, "Ah ha! There is no proof!"

Atheists love to use this language game because they don't believe in truth. They have embraced arbitrariness. They don't believe anything they say, they say only what they think might sound convincing to some, because their goal is to subvert the hearers into being ad foolish as they are.

Atheists don't believe in the truth. There is no reasoning with the unteasonable. It's a heart issue. If they don't love the truth, as the scriptures say, they will be cursed with strong delusion.


They bring it on to themselves. Of course, they will be forgiven if they turn away from their wickedness, but many of them get off on their wickedness. They don't understand that it is the root of their suffering.

#142
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@Mopac

The funny thing about proof is that if someone rejects all evidence, they can say "There is no proof!" And not be lying because as as long as their mind hasn't been changed, it cannot be said that something had been provennto them.
There is nobody anywhere at anytime who has provided evidence that any god exists. Godists are convinced their wishful thinking is evidence, it's not.
Atheists love to use this language game because they don't believe in truth.
You have no knowledge of what atheists believe or don't believe so this claim is a lie.
They have embraced arbitrariness.
You have no knowledge of what I embrace or don't embrace so once again you lie.
They don't believe anything they say, they say only what they think might sound convincing to some

Once again you claim knowledge that you don't possess and lie as a result.
Atheists don't believe in the truth
Another lie from fear and delusion.
If they don't love the truth
As an ignorant, primitive, superstitious middle eastern savage says, who cares, such words can be dismissed by truth and reality.
they will be forgiven if they turn away from their wickedness
Forgiven by what and for what wickedness and who are you to make such declarations?
#143
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@Mopac
Atheists love to use this language game because they don't believe in truth.
No, that'll be Christians when they have been backed into a corner with cold hard and so obvious contradictory verses from their OWN scriptures. You have even said >>>'one doesn't have to be knowledgeable of the scriptures to know the truth' <<<< My paraphrasing;  as if this is some kind of perfect answer to a difficult question concerning the bible.   You have even now suggested on another thread that sometimes these hypocritical contradictions are "good" or "for the good" ! this wouldn't satisfy anyone's curiosity not to mention the fact isn't even a answer. 

In your own words Mopac: Why did the son of god Jesus require baptizing?
#144
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@Stephen
Your questions will never end, because you don't really accept what the faith is about. You argue over letter issues when Christianity is religion of the spirit. No matter how many questions of yours that are answered, they will never be enough.

You don't ask because you intend to be wrong. You ask questions because you are sure you are right.

The scriptures themselves give instructions on how to handle such as you when they say,

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

My religion is Truth worship. Truth worship is the religion of Christianity. You do not know my faith, nor can you as long as you believe you know it is false. You remain unteachable. It is my hope that you one day come to understand what the faith is really about that you come to repentence and acknowledgment of The Truth.


Your questions will never end, and you have had several answered allready. You don't ever accept the answers you are given because you think you know better. What this tells me is that you aren't really interested in learning, but instead you are playing a game of rhetoric.

#145
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@PGA2.0
I have never stated that God is ONLY a thought of the human brain, a figment of our imagination,
Yet, that's the only thing you have ever demonstrated, nothing more.

but I point out compelling evidence, whether you want to believe it or dismiss it.
No, you haven't, you have made assertions, you've provided no compelling evidence.

That is between you and God and I leave it with Him for He knows best.
God isn't here, you are.

The existence of God has been/is obvious to a majority of people throughout the course of human history.
The existence of God is always based on faith, that's what it says in the Bible and that's what has always reflected reality.

They look at the universe and reason it must be the work of a Creator God.
No, they have faith God is the Creator, they have no evidence. It's all guesswork based on their bias towards wanting God to exist, just like you.

Unfortunately, many people do not worship God as He is. They have molded God into what they want Him to be. Thus, a myriad of world religions.
That looks exactly like what you have done, too. Although, it's not God they've molded, it's their faith in God that was molded, just like yours. You are no different than any of those others. There are many religions much older than yours so how do you know you are right and they are wrong?

#146
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@Mopac
Your questions will never end, because you don't really accept what the faith is about.
 That's neither here nor there. I am questioning the scripture not your faith. I am more than well aware of your faith.
  You Argue over letter issues when Christianity is religion of the spirit.
No, that would be whole verses full of contradictory letter issues.
Tell me,what is spiritual about someone in the scriptures saying “honour thy mother and thy father” and then saying “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”?
 You Seem to be ignoring the fact that these New Testament scriptures are suppose to ACTUALLY be telling the ACTUAL story of the ACTUAL words and ACTUAL deeds of the Son Of God and THE ACTUAL ACTS words and deed OF HIS Disciples. Yet, when put under the microscope they don’t ACTUALLY not ring true. And that is just the New Testament
 No Matter how many questions of yours that are answered, they will never be enough.
 Wellyou haven’t answered any yet, although you insist that you have.  And I Agree, there are so many anomalies, half told stories and enigmatic statements in these scriptures that they, for me have to be ironed out, discussed and explained by someone who should know.
 You Don't ask because you intend to be wrong. You ask questions because you are sure you are right.
How could you possibly know that? I ask a question to get a answer to my question. You just can’t handle my questions, so , that, somehow, in your faithful eyes,makes wrong FOR ASKING!!!?
The Scriptures themselves give instructions on how to handle such as you
 Well I Haven’t seen anything that describes what you claim. I have read certain dictates “turn the other cheek” and sell you clothes and buy weapons” are those the instructions to which you refer?
 Tell Me, if the end of time/the world was approaching  as these poor suckers ofthe time were led to believe, then what was the point of giving all your belongings and everything you owned away to the so called “poor”?   
 "But Avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
 Yes from  Titus. and would say that wouldn’t he? He probably, like you, simply couldn’t address or answer some of these problematic scriptures himself so came up with something as bland and dismissive as you do.
 My Religion is Truth worship.
 If you worship truth, then get to know that these gospels do not ring true on the surface.    
 Truth Worship is the religion of Christianity.
 That’ll Be Christianity then. Yes I think I got that.
 You don't know my faith, nor can you as long as you believe you know it is false.
 You’redoing it again. I understand you have faith in these scriptures.  I understand that you have faith in at least in one of the many gods of the bible. It is the scriptures I am questioning, not your faith.
 You remain unteachable.
 I am open to all kinds of teaching, but it appears you are in any position to provide the simplest of teaching, not even to a child. You repeating over and over that you are a lover of “truth” and a believer of "truth"wouldn’t even  answer a child’s basic questions such as, why did my motherdie? Why have I got a illness that is going to kill me before I get to school age? 
 It's My hope that you one day come to understand what the faith is really about
 I know perfectly what faith  is about, it is  believing something is true without evidence.
that you come to repentance and acknowledgment of The Truth.
I believe I Am slowly acknowledging the truth of the scriptures and am revealing what Iacknowledge. And that seems to be annoying you and a few others here.
 Your Questions will never end,
That’ll be down to the hundreds of inconsistencies in the scriptures. I don’t believe you have even read the bible and certainly not as closely as I have.
and you have had several answered already
 stop saying that, it just isn’t true , truth lover!!!
 You Don't ever accept the answers you are given because you think you know better.
 I have given you examples how one of your  so called answers simply leads to another question because your answers do not add up. Telling me that biblical hypocrisy in some cases is “GOOD” and the blatant contradictions are “GOOD” are not answers, THEY'RE MORE CONTRADICTIONS!!!!!
 Whatthis tells me is that you aren't really interested in learning, but instead youare playing a game of rhetoric.
 So let me get this straight, when I quote a verse from your own scriptures, that is me being rhetorical?  But when you do the same it is something else entirely.: Truth?  This again is hypocrisy. And this is the nature of the scriptures, they continually throw up questions. Are you trying to tell everyone here that you have never ever questioned the bible ?

 You are a typical case of being led to verses  by someone else and by the same token you are also being led away from those verses that contradict those verses you have been led to and directed towards.  Now that is the "TRUTH"

#147
Stephen
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@PGA2.0
Unfortunately, many people do not worship God as He is. They have molded God into what they want Him to be. Thus, a myriad of world religions.
And a myriad of gods as  the bible clearly states. But yours is the one true god I suppose?

#148
Mopac
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@Stephen
If you break up my posts like that, I will not read it. I am on a cell phone, and I am far too busy to waste my time dealing with your formatting while addressing every one of your fallacies.

If you have something to say to me, respond to my whole post at once. I do not respect your method of post dissemination, I see it as a reflection of your inability to truly listen. I would be willing to bet that you interrupt people when they talk. 


#149
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@Mopac
I am far too busy to waste my time dealing with
Yes, you are too busy preaching lies to us, you can't waste your time defending your lies, you will just keep repeating them.

#150
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@Mopac
I see it as a reflection of your inability to truly listen.
He is revealing all of our lies, one by one. He is not preaching, YOU are. And clearly, you are the one not listening to anyone. You only want to preach.