One Of The Most Enigmatic Verse In All Christianity

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@Mopac

They want to kill Jesus in Jerusalem. Visiting Lazarus is dangerous.

Yes they wanted to kill everyone connected to Jesus. But they were going to Bethany. The safest place for him.

Visiting Lazarus is dangerous.

Stop it!!!!!

Jesus lived in Bethany . He lived off the women there who gave to him "of their substance". He ate in the in the house of Simon "the leper", in Bethany .He was anointed there in Bethany. And his entry into Jerusalem started in Bethany.

And he went to raise his sick, sleeping "dead" best friend Lazarus in BETHANY!! The village of Bethany is referenced in relation to five incidents in the New Testament, in which the word Bethany appears 11 times.

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

#62

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@Stephen

Bethany is literally on the other side of the hill from Jerusalem. It's like a half hour walk.

You have absolutely no argument, you are making a fool of yourself.

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@Mopac

Bethany is literally........

It matters not! All of Jesus business was conducted and directed from the safe haven of Bethany. That is where they were going, that is where they went to see a "dead" Lazarus. That is where Lazarus was "raised". Do not try to play down the importance of Bethany to Jesus. You are denying BIBLICAL FACTS!!!

You have absolutely no argument, you are making a fool of yourself.

So you won't mind answering these harmless questions, for a harmless old fool, will you , Mopac. Or have you been ordered not to by cowards who also cannot answer these questions themselves?

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

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@Stephen

/topic

#65

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@Stephen

Those other verses and my questions prove my claim.
No they don't. And questions don't prove.

Opinion.

And what is more by you refusing to answer those questions proves me right even more.
Incorrect.

opinion

I've entertained this long enough. Enjoy the rest of your day, sir.

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@Stephen

It is the question. and you would have known that had you not ignored it or even bothered reading from P1.
But as soon as you have someone like me come along who seriously challenges these gospels, and " your spin on them". you fold.

It is your question based on a false narrative that you invent because you resist the notion of miracles. Not my problem. I am not using spin - I have no need to use spin. I am merely reading the story in its context acknowledging the story actually demonstrates Jesus will perform a miracle. I don't have to hide in spin. And as for folding, LOL! what planet do you seriously come from? You are not challenging anything I believe - you really are not. When you change the intent of the passage to make it say something it clearly does not - and then lo and behold a verse becomes problematic for you - it cannot shake or challenge my views. You have not actually proved your case.

They did not wish to die alongside Lazarus.

The scriptures clearly tell us it was Lazarus.

So you say. But you have not proved it. You take vv. 11-15 which do talk about Lazarus and then add v.16 without considering the entire context.

You fail to address 8 and 9 and the disciples concerns for Jesus' safety. By omitting discussion about this - you leave interpretation to open-ended and open to speculation such as your priestly nonsense.

Now I am still persuaded that v. 16 the "him" is Jesus. The only manner in which the him in v. 16 could be Lazarus is if the disciples took the view that Lazarus is dead and that by going with Jesus they were themselves prepared to die with Jesus and be buried with Lazarus. I don't find that a convincing interpretation. Yet, it is more convincing that your interpretation which makes no sense.

There is not a scrap of evidence suggesting that is what they were wanting to do.

The scriptures clearly has Thomas saying:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
You can deny those verses until the second coming and they won't change.The fact that the " him", is Lazarus.

Yes, everyone of those verses 11- 15 talk of Lazarus sleeping or being dead. The Lord knows he is dead - and he is going to raise him. v. 4 Jesus tells us it is not going to end in death - and it did not end in death - it ended in resurrection. Death, like sleep is naturally to us, was temporary in this particular case: why? v. 4 tells us "so that the Son might be glorified through it.".

And even if you were correct in believing the verses were about Jesus, you still haven't explained why Thomas would even suggest such a thing as suicide when Jesus message and Christianity is all about life,
Jesus himself speaks only of life and living. Yet there is not a single protestation from Jesus when Thomas suggest they go and "die". This in and of itself is a complete contradiction to what we are led to believe was Jesus' soul mission here was on earth.

I did explain it. Thomas suggested it because he was loyal to Jesus. Jesus was his master. Thomas his servant and friend. Friends are at times loyal even to death. Jesus' message was that life comes through his death. It was not just about life. Remember after Peter expressed his understanding that Jesus is the messiah, the Christ, that Jesus then started predicting his own death - as the means to life. Peter rejected this. To say Jesus' message is only about life and not death is a misreading of the bible and of Jesus' gospel. As for protestation v. 8 is clear in this message. What was the point of protesting after Jesus had made up his mind - they were his servants, they had protested and he still was clear. Thomas at this point was expressing both his loyalty to Jesus but also his belief as to what he thought would occur.

Opinion and "spin". And is your only way around these questions.

That is your conclusion based on your own assumptions. It does not have to be a way around anything - it is the plain sense of the passage.

Now you are doing what is expected of all Christians when posed a real serious question . You are allowing yourself to explain "what lies within" while dismissing what an atheist reveals "what lies within". You just won't allow yourself to relalise the fact that there are honest, reasonable and very earthly answers to these verses. You cannot do without your miracles.

An atheist has not revealed anything about what lies within. The context speaks for itself. I don't have to come up with ways to explain away miracles. That is your mission not mine. I just let the passage speak for itself and I read the entire context not just the verses that support me.

That would be full blown theist no doubt. And yet other scholars have it different.

Yes, it includes atheists and liberals and Muslims and non-Christians.

Acts 5. Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, just appear to drop down dead for no reason.

No, Luke explains why they died. God killed them for lying to him.

Matthew 8:22. A grieving disciple wants time off from his duties to bury his dead father

Yes, Jesus was in the context talking about loyalty. He is not talking about priesthood. He may be discussing the dead and the spiritual. And even is he was - (which incidentally I don't have an opinion about and might concede he is doing this) it is totally irrelevant to the book of John and the story of Lazarus. For it to be relevant - you need to make a connection and not just use words that may or may not be similar.

John 11:16 And Thomas suggestion that they "die"

Explained above -

Only do these enigmatic tales make any sense is if "the dead" means something other than a literal physical death. And in these cases, it clearly has to mean something else. which it does as I have show. My questions alone prove my point and you being unable to answer those questions proves it even further,

Well actually it makes perfect sense in John 11:16 for dead to mean physical death. In the case of dead burying death it may mean other than physical dead or at least the first usage of dead might be. The second sense clearly refers to dead literally. In the case of Acts - the two - husband and wife - dropped dead and so the Acts tells us - this caused a significant fear to come upon many people and they turned to the Lord. In v. 16 here, there is no other possible sense in which the word can be used other than physical death.

Hold onto them if that is your desire.

I do. And I will keep asking my questions, the same questions that are obviously far too awkward and difficult for you to take on .

I have answered the questions. I disagree with you on your interpretation. As does it seems everyone else.

But when you ask a question - expect that others do not see the things that you see......

I don't . I expect them and YOU to answer my questions without falling back and relying on miracles and superstition.

but you do. And when people disagree with you - you attack them. Say they are running away or avoiding the questions. And you attempt to belittle them - "like all the other Christians". I don't have to answer in the way you want me to. I take the views that miracles did occur - and I do not take the view that they are superstitions. That is your supposition - and one you have not come close to proving, demonstrating.

because you have to read them into the text.

But haven't you just told me what " "what lies within" while dismissing what I believes "lies within".

Absolutely. you are incorrect about your assumptions. You start with your assumptions - and then you logically move to try and prove them. It is not an area of neutrality. What I say is true and what you say is true are not compatible. The difference is I don't have an agenda. I just read the story as it is and don't try to read into it - or read out of it what I don't like.

In other words, this verse is problematic for you,

The problem lies with the devout Christian. It is not problematic to me. I know what they mean.

nope - it really does not. I have no issues - I don't have to spin the story. It reads quite easily to me. And the conclusions I have come to are almost identical to whatever everyone else independently of me have come to. How many people have come to the same conclusions you have - independantly - and without reading the same source materials as you? I would hazard to guess - not many.

Now...would you like to take on my questions,Tradesecret ?

What did Lazarus die of?

We are not told what he died from. We are only told he is ill.

What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?

He was dead. Dead people usually end up in tombs. caves, ground. cremated. etc etc. Who said it was common knowledge that Jesus could raise the dead? And I mean prior to the time that Lazarus died.

How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?

Yes, that is an interesting question. Were they stupid or were they seeking a political end? Would Jesus raise Lazarus a second time? Why did he not raise every person who died? Perhaps they were thinking with their atheist eyes. Perhaps they did not believe in miracles. Remember - their problem was not their disbelief or own belief - it was what the people thought. so they could easily dismiss the miracle as fake, just like you. but it is much harder to make other people dismiss the miracle especially if people really believed. killing him would get rid of the problem in their political minds.

Why do YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead?

I explained this previously and above.

Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?

Same question really. Yes I can see the two questions are nuanced differently - but the same answer applies.

Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?

Totally irrelevant to the story unless you can provide a better link.

How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead?

Because he is God. Because 21 tells us he was told.

Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die?

Why would God let Jesus his son die on the cross? Why would Jesus let Judas betray him? Those questions don't add to what you are arguing. Why does a good God allow bad things to happen? Totally irrelevant. In any event v. 4 tells us doesn't? "it is for God's glory so that God's son may be glorified through it." That provides a beautiful explanation for me and satisfying - it wont for you of course if you don't believe in God. That of course is your problem. If the question is about these young men like Thomas dying? I think the same applies. Yet in the context I think Jesus always remains in control and is never out of control even if people around him seem that way. They might have been afraid for their lives and even for Jesus' but he was never afraid for his own life. He has his own mission and he was always in control. Even as he was dying on a cross at the hands of the Romans, he was still in control. And after his death and resurrection - all of these men following Jesus would give up their lives for him.

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@Stephen

Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!?

Why would he protest? He knew their concerns and he also knew their doubts about Lazarus and the death they would find. In any event, he did not reveal all of his mission to them.

Did they die?

not then - but later on they were martyred for him and his resurrection from the dead.

Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"?

No, but why should he do that? This was a specific resurrection - and for a specific purpose.

What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal
death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.

Tis true Jesus could have raised him from the dead again if he wanted to. So perhaps this was more than just about raising one man from the dead. v. 4 tells us why. but why would Jesus need to do it again? Yes he could have - and he could have raised everyone else but he did not and he does not. but that does not mean that he could not or it did not happen on this occasion. Or it really means is that you and I don't have an answer to that question. the thing is - if we did have an answer to that question would it change our minds? and the answer is no. I would still believe and you would still not believe.

Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus?

He had his reasons - v. 4. He is the resurrection and the life.

Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong?

He did not get it wrong. This did not end in death - it ended in resurrection. How can you with all of your learning get it so wrong?

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@Tradesecret

Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"?
No, but why should he do that? This was a specific resurrection - and for a specific purpose.

It certainly was wasn't it. Now why don't you explain to me and those that care, what was special and "specific" about this particular "resurrection" of the "dead" man Lazarus?

And what was the special "specific" purpose of the "raising"?

What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.

Tis true Jesus could have raised him from the dead again if he wanted to. So perhaps this was more than just about raising one man from the dead.but why would Jesus need to do it again? [.........]Or it really means is that you and I don't have an answer to that question.

Why did he do it in the first place? Why didn't he go immediately on hearing about "the one he loved" being sick in the first place? He tells of even being "glad" that he wasn't there!!!!

And why would he not re- resurrect the disciple "he loved". You are clutching at straws and stating nothing factual. You are attempting to interpret scripture and force an opinion as fact to cover your own ignorance and create a new narrative. You have done this before as do all devout Christians when actually challenged on what it is you believe.

Or it really means is that you and I don't have an answer to that question.

You speak for yourself. My belief in what was going on is no more fanciful than your blind faith in the resurrection of a "dead" man.

Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus?
He had his reasons - v. 4. He is the resurrection and the life.

That doesn't answer the question does it. Why first only "sick", then just sleeping and then, with no explanation, stone cold "dead"? , is what I asked you.

Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong?
He did not get it wrong. This did not end in death -

This from you is blatant denial. The scripture clearly states the sequence leading to Lazarus' supposed "death".

it ended in resurrection.

His life ended in "death" , if the scriptures are to be believed. Stop trying to rewrite the narrative.

How can you with all of your learning get it so wrong?

I didn't and I haven't. If Lazarus suffered a sickness from anything it was the fact that he was "sick to death" of the whole movement. Lazarus lost his faith, not in his god or maybe not even Jesus. He lost his faith in the movement. They were all wanted men especially Lazarus and Jesus and Lazarus no longer wanted any part of it, this is why he "died" and preferred to return to where " the dead bury the dead".

Luke 9:60 King James Version (KJV)

60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Matthew 8:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

It was the same place that Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, were returned to when they held back funds to the movement; they too were simply thrown back to the land where the "dead bury the dead" Acts 5.

Indeed you will have it that these poor folk just simply dropped down dead: struck down by the lord. But that is not true is it?

Acts 5: 1-10

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

And the next verse explains it all: 11 And great fear came upon all the church,[movement] and upon as many as heard these things. I bet it did. These poor folk were being threatened into handing over all their money to the "CHURCH" under the threat of excommunication. They actually feared for their lives once they heard about this.

You simply cannot face the fact that what I am saying explains all this supposed resurrection from the "dead".

with all of your learning

I don't need your patronage.

If the resurrection of a "dead" Lazarus was truly a miracle then it was Jesus's greatest of all his miracles wouldn't you agree?

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@Athias

I've entertained this long enough

What!!!!? Are you not even going to explain this before you go?

You and ethnag - popoff - 5 have BOTH made the silly argument that Lazarus was already dead asking "so how could they die with him if he was already dead". Posts 19 & 21

I ask you this , how then can a dead man walk if he is "dead"

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. ^^^^^^^^^^

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11&version=NIV

So going by your own understanding and reasoning, the scripture states "The man" that is "dead", but was walking out of the tomb. How can he walk anywhere if he is physically "dead".!!??

Enjoy the rest of your day, sir.

I nearly always do, Athias

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@Mopac

They want to kill Jesus in Jerusalem. Visiting Lazarus is dangerous.

Yes they wanted to kill everyone connected to Jesus. But they were going to Bethany. The safest place for him.

Visiting Lazarus is dangerous.

Stop it!!!!!

Jesus lived in Bethany . He lived off the women there who gave to him "of their substance". He ate in the in the house of Simon "the leper", in Bethany .He was anointed there in Bethany. And his entry into Jerusalem started in Bethany.

And he went to raise his sick, sleeping "dead" best friend Lazarus in BETHANY!! The village of Bethany is referenced in relation to five incidents in the New Testament, in which the word Bethany appears 11 times.

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

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@Stephen

I ask you this , how then can a dead man walk if he is "dead"

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. ^^^^^^^^^^

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11&version=NIV

So going by your own understanding and reasoning, the scripture states "The man" that is "dead", but was walking out of the tomb. How can he walk anywhere if he is physically "dead".!!??

Check your references before you put out this sophistry. Your original reference, the one that was subject to dispute, was the King James Version; this most recent reference is from the New International Version. You have conveyed to me that you have either the unwillingness or the incapacity to support your claim. Once again, I will entertain this no more. Good luck in your future debates, Stephen.

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@Athias

You have conveyed to me that you have either the unwillingness

And from the beginning of this thread you have ignored all my uncomfortable and awkward questions. Questions that you had no intention of answering, ever.

Your original reference, the one that was subject to dispute, was the King James Version; this most recent reference is from the New International Version.

So!? Is not a bible a bible? Is not a Christian bible a bible? Are you now going to claim that not all bibles are correct and that only the bible that suits your own narrative is the correct bible?

I will say it again;

YOU and ethnag - popoff - 5 have BOTH made the silly argument that Lazarus was already dead "so how could they die with him if he was already dead". Posts 19 & 21

I ask you this , how then can a dead man walk if he is "dead"

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. ^^^^^^^^^^

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11&version=NIV

So by your own standards of deduction, tell me, How can he walk anywhere if he is physically "dead".!!??

Your argument now is that I have posted a verse from another bible, SO WHAT!!? There are many bibles that have this EXACT same verse""" LOOK>>>

John 11:44

New International Version

The dead man came out,

New Living Translation

And the dead man came out,

Christian Standard Bible

The dead man came

Holman Christian Standard Bible

The dead man came

GOD'S WORD® Translation

The dead man came out.

Darby Bible Translation

And the dead came forth,

Weymouth New Testament

The dead man came out,

before you put out this sophistry

And let me add; that silly argument that they "couldn't die with Lazarus because he was already dead" is pure SOPHISTRY from both of you.

My father, was always saying to us kinds, that "sometimes he wished he could have died with his best friend" after seeing him shot through the head in the trenches. So away with your bullshit "sophistry"

The bible , any bible, simply doesn't agree with how you are reading it, especial in the case of this "miracle" of making a - stinking rotten corpse of a "dead men" alive again.

You are simply regurgitating what it is you have been taught. You haven't thought this ancient garbled classical mess out for yourself. You have been steered to the easily 'explainable' verses while being steered completely away from the very problematic and completely UN-explainable verses.

As I have said above

If Lazarus suffered a sickness from anything it was the fact that he was "sick to death" of the whole movement. Lazarus lost his faith, not in his god or maybe not even Jesus. He lost his faith in the movement. They were all wanted men with prices on their heads especially Lazarus and Jesus and Lazarus no longer wanted any part of it, this is why he "died" and preferred to return to where " the dead bury the dead".

Luke 9:60 King James Version (KJV)

60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

I will entertain this no more.

Oh I am sad.

Good luck in your future debates, Stephen.

I will always have the bible to fall back on won't I.

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@Mopac

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says " let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, [...............]

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
16 Then Thomas (also known as Didymus said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

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@Stephen

You are ignoring the fact that functionally, Bethany is in Jerusalem.

It is a little walk along the mount of Olives away. This is really not a distance at all, and if it were to be known that Jesus was in Bethany, it would not take long for those trying to kill Jesus to be informed. In an hours time someone could see Jesus in Bethany, rush to Jerusalem, tell the authorities, lead them back to Bethany, and arrest Jesus.

I mean, I think of all the walking I do. I frequently walk greater distances than this without even making it to the other side of town.

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@Mopac

You are ignoring the fact that functionally, Bethany is in Jerusalem.

"ignoraning" !!!???

But it was to Bethany that they were returning to wasn't it? Lazarus was "sick" then "asleep and then "dead" in Bethany wasn't he? the message came from Bethany. Stop ignoring this very clear stone cold BIBLICAL fact.

And you keep avoiding this, WHY????

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says " let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, [...............]

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

16 Then Thomas (also known as Didymus said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

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@Mopac

Why did it take four days for the message to travel a half hour walk?

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@Stephen

We don't have anything more to discuss, you don't have an argument.

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@Mopac

We don't have anything more to discuss, you don't have an argument.

No answers is what you mean.

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says " let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, [...............]

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

16 Then Thomas (also known as Didymus said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

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@Stephen

They are going to see Lazarus in Bethany.

I perceive you are alluding at something more mystigogical, which is fair considering John's is the mystagogical gospel.

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@Mopac

They are going to see Lazarus in Bethany.

So when you say, "they" , you mean the "us" mentioned at verse 15 below. Which means Jesus is addressing Thomas at verse 15 below and any others that are with him.

So Ok. You have finally accepted that Jesus along with Thomas are all heading for Bethany where Lazarus, is said to be laying in a tomb and "dead".

Now you tell me - why are "they" all are going to Bethany to see Lazarus.? There is a clue at verse 11 below.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

I perceive you are alluding at something more mystigogical, which is fair considering John's is the mystagogical gospel.

We are coming to that Mopac.

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@Stephen

Well, you should just come out and say what you are thinking.

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@Mopac

Well, you should just come out and say what you are thinking.

I will. besides, you know what I think. I told you my beliefs all through this thread. You have tried to counter my belief with excuses and and false explanations.. I am slowly showing you that you and others on this thread that you are wrong.

So lets carry on .

So Ok. after your instance that these verses were all about Jesus' safety and where they were going, you have now finally admitted that Jesus along with Thomas are all heading for Bethany where Lazarus, is said to be laying in a tomb and "dead".

Now you tell me - why are "they" all going to Bethany to see Lazarus.? There is a clue at verse 11 below.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

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@Stephen

Why don't you tell us the explanation you invented to justify your current beliefs, and spare us all the rhetoric.

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@Mopac

Why don't you tell us the explanation you invented to justify your current beliefs, and spare us all the rhetoric.

You are avoiding again, Mopac. You know my stance and the purpose of this thread. I haven't hidden it.

So after your instance that these verses were all about Jesus' safety and where they were going, you have now finally admitted that Jesus along with Thomas are all heading for Bethany where Lazarus, is said to be laying in a tomb and "dead".

Now you tell me - why are "they" all going to Bethany to see Lazarus.? There is a clue at verse 11 below.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

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@Stephen

It's written plainly in the passage what happened, and there is no finally accepting anything. You are talking to your imagination again.

And obviously you have nothing to say.

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@Mopac

Now you tell me -

why are "they" all going to Bethany to see Lazarus.?

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@Stephen

As Jesus himself says...

"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep...... Lazarus is dead. I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him."

They are going there so that Jesus can raise Lazarus from the dead.

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@Mopac

why are "they" all going to Bethany to see Lazarus.?

They are going there so that Jesus can raise Lazarus from the dead.

So after almost four pages of denial, you now accept that this story is about going to BETHANY and not into Judea/Jerusalem as you have been insisting. Thomas and others, at the BEHEST/orders of Jesus are also going along with Jesus to BETHANY to the raising of a "DEAD" man named LAZARUS back to life again. the only "DEAD" person in the whole story is Lazarus. And that the whole story is not about dying along with with Jesus in Jerusalem at all but about bringing back a "dead" man to life.

So this now has come full circle hasn't it. is all that remains for you to explain to us is why in the whole world would Thomas suggest this:

John 11:16 Let us also go, that we may die with him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

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@Stephen

4 pages of denial. Lol.

You're an idiot. I'm not feeding you anymore.

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