Catholicism is the Fullness of the Christian Faith

Author: DeusVult

Posts

Total: 124
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
And, always the wealth complaint. Only the wealthy can do it. So acquiring wealth was not I possible then and not impossible now. Just do it. I have. It has given many opportunities, and I cannot blame anyone but myself if I was not.
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
Council of Florence Session 11 (Bull Cantate Domino): "With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time..."
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@fauxlaw
I saw your quote, but fail to see what relevance it has.  You cannot show any document where the Church forbade people from reading scripture.  You are simply putting your own biases on the issue.

Let me put it another way.  Your style of faith is impossible without the printing press.  How did Christ's Church survive for 1500 years?
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@n8nrgmi
Council of Florence Session 11 (Bull Cantate Domino): "With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time..."
Yes it should not be delayed.  The traditional practice was that the mother was not even there for the baptism as the child would be brought to the priest for baptism while she was still in recovery.

The purpose of this was to rebuke those who wanted baptism delayed.  The Church knows that baptism is required.  However, it does not limit God's ability to save those for whom baptism was not possible.  The prudent response has always been that the Church baptizes into the body of Christ with all haste as we know of no other way into the Body of Christ.  The Church has hope that some of those others can by saved through whatever means God chooses.

RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4

Maybe so.

But any business undertaking ,small or large requires income and to be able to sell religion successfully  at any level, requires astute marketing of the product.
Marketing for small rural churches and inner-city storefront churches might generally consist of a message on a marquee. A typical storefront church's income generally goes to paying employee salaries (except where workers volunteer), and food banks for the neighborhood's poor.

Is marketing a bad thing?
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
-->
@DeusVult
you cant pretend that the teaching is that the "only"... florence's words... way to save an infant is to baptize it, and then still hold out hope that they can still be saved without baptism. that's illogical. the only way it could make sense is to jump through a bunch of hoops that no one who isn't catholic should be expected to jump through.

enjoy your gymnastics, though. 
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@DeusVult

The Church councils.  That is the bishops in union with the Pope, definitively declaring what has been the continual teaching of the Church.

The Pope can also do the same, but usually does so through the councils.

Have you ever disagreed with any of the Catholic church's doctrines? Do you allow yourself to honestly disagree?

I don't agree with everything I hear the pastor say over the pulpit. Every once in awhile, they will say something I don't agree with.

Jesus made that promise to one Church.  He lit a lamp and set it upon a lamp stand so to speak.  That is like saying couldn't a king give anyone the ability to speak on his behalf?  Well yes, but why would he?  He has people to do that on his behalf.  And the people can know that those ministers speak on his behalf because they are part of the official system that has been established.

The Davidic kingdom was a prefigurement of the kingdom of Christ.  In the Davidic kingdom the king had ministers to work and speak on his behalf.  Additionally, there was a steward (like a prime minister) who had all the authority of the king himself, save the crown.  As this was the system of the Davidic kingdom, this is the system of the Catholic Chruch.

Romans 8:14



For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

I think the Catholic church overlooks the individual guidance of the Holy Spirit.

As an example, a member of a church I attended felt lead to go to China as a missionary. The pastors supported this, but didn't think he was ready. He felt ready, went to China during it's heaviest persecution era (before the government eased up on religion). And he's been there ever since. He's white, but Chinese in every other way.

My position is that God leads all of his children. And sometimes it's counter to the opinion of everyone else. How much emphasis does the Catholic church place on individual spiritual guidance (in conjunction with church authority as I'm not talking about non-submission)? Do you think a believer could only be lead to the Catholic church?

Yes He does.  However, Jesus also left us a Church with His authority to teach the truth and provide the sacraments.

I agree. But why would you think it confined to the Catholic church?


Most of the denominations have a unique divine history. We can kind of get a clue as to their roots just from their names (Baptist, Methodist,
Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc.). They had genuine revelations meant to be shared with the Body of Christ as a whole. Unfortunately, this often didn't happen. So in one sense denominations are negative when they attempt to isolate themselves from the rest of the Body. Denominations can be a positive when they agree to get together and learn/benefit from one another.

Are you familiar with Pentecostal Catholics?


fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
According to the epistle of James, faith without works is dead. Works like, having access to the scriptures to read them for one's self, not to be read to. You read to children. Adults should have the capacity to read for themselves, but did not for hundreds, indeed a thousand years. I've given you the reference to that fact. 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,278
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@RoderickSpode
As far as I am concerned, marketing is marketing and good or bad isn't really the issue.

Nonetheless, a church and it's associated and variable requirements of infrastructure, therefore necessitate variable levels of promotion and marketing....Horses for courses as it were.

The truly devout will pray in the kitchen.


DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@n8nrgmi
you cant pretend that the teaching is that the "only"... florence's words... way to save an infant is to baptize it, and then still hold out hope that they can still be saved without baptism. that's illogical. the only way it could make sense is to jump through a bunch of hoops that no one who isn't catholic should be expected to jump through.
There are 3 types of Baptism.  Water, blood and desire.  Water is by far the normative.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@DeusVult
Why do Catholics pray to Mary?

Why do archbishops, cardinals, and the pope carry the Lituus?

Why is Easter celebrated on Sunday when Jesus is said to have died on Friday, and resurrected after three days and three nights?

Why is there a statue of the roman god Jupiter in the Vatican?

Why do Catholics celebrate Christmas at the winter solstice knowing full well that according to scripture, farmers were out in the field when the three wise men visited the manger?

Why does the Roman Catholic Church have a persistent issue--one may argue institutionalized--with their priests and pederasty?


I know the answer to these questions. It would, however, be interesting to gather the thoughts of one who argues "Catholicism is the Fullness of the Christian Faith."
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
Have you ever disagreed with any of the Catholic church's doctrines? Do you allow yourself to honestly disagree?

I don't agree with everything I hear the pastor say over the pulpit. Every once in awhile, they will say something I don't agree with
Sure I have, but I change my opinion to conform to what the Church teaches.  Do I like the idea of an eternal hell? No.  Do I wish that there was some way for those who go to hell to be saved?  Definitely.  However, that is not for me to choose.  The Church has been tasked with the salvation of souls and only in her can I be sure of the Truth.  If I choose what is the truth, then I make myself Pope.

Now that doesn't mean I agree with everything my priest, bishop, or even the current Pontiff say (I disagree with him more than I ever thought it possible to disagree with a Pope).  When they teach the faith I listen and attempt to modify my life.  When they teach their own opinions, I am not obliged to follow what they say, but I give it consideration given who it is coming from.

I think the Catholic church overlooks the individual guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Not at all.  This is central to Catholicism.  We are all about the need for grace to keep our feet on the path.  It is through unity with the Church and her sacraments that the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit are poured out upon the body of the Church.

Most of the denominations have a unique divine history. We can kind of get a clue as to their roots just from their names (Baptist, Methodist,
Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc.). They had genuine revelations meant to be shared with the Body of Christ as a whole. Unfortunately, this often didn't happen. So in one sense denominations are negative when they attempt to isolate themselves from the rest of the Body. Denominations can be a positive when they agree to get together and learn/benefit from one another.
We can agree that all Christian should be united. Just as The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one, all should be one in the Body of Christ.  I will say that the only true unity is through the unity that Jesus established - his Church with Peter as the cornerstone.  Everything else is ultimately disunity and error.

Are you familiar with Pentecostal Catholics?
Not at all.
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@fauxlaw
According to the epistle of James, faith without works is dead. Works like, having access to the scriptures to read them for one's self, not to be read to. You read to children. Adults should have the capacity to read for themselves, but did not for hundreds, indeed a thousand years. I've given you the reference to that fact. 
So there is no salvation for the illiterate?

Once again you cannot quote where the Church forbade people from reading the Bible.  Show me a church document - not an opinion piece.
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@Athias
Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
First I think there is one major distinction to make.  Protestants don't understand that there is a difference between prayer and worship.  Since Protestants lack the Mass, they cannot understand the difference.

So Jesus is a king in the line of David.  In the Davidic kingdom the king's mother was the queen.  People would petition the queen to ask the king for favours on their behalf.  When Jesus told John, here is your mother he made Mary the mother of all mankind - she is the new Eve as Jesus is the new Adam.

So we petition Mary to pray for us and to help us be like her in loving her son.

Why do archbishops, cardinals, and the pope carry the Lituus?
That is a pretty specific question - and rather biased in presentation.  The origin of the Crosier is unknown.

Some writers trace an affinity with the lituus, or rod used by the Roman augurs in their divinations, while others again trace in the crosier an adaptation of the ordinary walking-sticks which were used for support on journeys and in churches before the introduction of seats (Catalani, Pont. Rom., Proleg., xx). At all events, it came at a very early date to be one of the principal insignia of the episcopal office. Just how soon is not easily determined, since in the early passages of the Fathers in which the word occurs it cannot be ascertained whether it is to be taken literally or metaphorically (see 1 Corinthians 4:21) or whether it designates an ecclesiastical ornament at all. In liturgical usage it probably goes back to the fifth century (Kirchenlex., s.v. Hirtenstab). Mention of it is made in a letter of Pope Celestine I (d. 432) to the Bishops of Vienne and Narbonne. Staffs have indeed been found in the catacombs that date from the fourth century but their ceremonial character has not been established. The first unequivocal reference to the crosier as a liturgical instrument occurs in the twenty-seventh canon of the Council of Toledo (633). At present it is employed by bishops whenever they perform solemn pontifical functions, by right in their own dioceses and by privilege outside, and by inferior prelates whenever they are privileged to exercise pontifical functions.

You might as well ask why did Moses carry the Lituus.  Popes don't currently use the Crosier.

Why is Easter celebrated on Sunday when Jesus is said to have died on Friday, and resurrected after three days and three nights?
It has to do with how the Jews counted time.  Any part of the day counted as the whole "day & night."

Why is there a statue of the roman god Jupiter in the Vatican?  
There isn't.  This ancient statue of St. Peter, portrayed as he gives a blessing and preaches, while holding the keys to the kingdom of heaven is thought by some scholars to have been a work of Arnolfo di Cambio (1245-1302), others believe that it is a V century casting.  Either way not Jupiter/Zeus/Whomever.

Why do Catholics celebrate Christmas at the winter solstice knowing full well that according to scripture, farmers were out in the field when the three wise men visited the manger?
Because it is Biblical.

We know that Elizabeth is in her 6th month of pregnancy when Jesus is conceived.

And behold, yourkinswoman Elizabeth in her old agehas also conceived a son; and this isthe sixth month with her who wascalled barren. For with God nothingwill be impossible.

So if we can establish when John the Baptist was  born we can establish when Jesus was born.

Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served inthe “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripturerecords as the eighth course among the twenty four priestly courses (Neh 12:17). Each shift ofpriests served one week in the temple for twotimes each year. The course of Abias servedduring the eighth week and the thirty-secondweek in the annual cycle. However, when didthe cycle of courses begin?

In our calendar, the Day ofAtonement would land anywhere fromSeptember 22 to October 8.

Zacharias and Elizabeth conceived John theBaptist immediately after Zacharias served his course. (See Luke 1:5-24) This entails that Saint John the Baptistwould have been conceived somewhere aroundthe end of September, placing John’s birth at theend of June. 

Add six months to the end of June and you get the end of December for the birth of Jesus - hence December 25.  For a fuller description:


Why does the Roman Catholic Church have a persistent issue--one may argue institutionalized--with their priests and pederasty?
One doesn't become a saint as soon as they put on a collar.  There are many things I could discuss like the infiltration of the Catholic Church by communists in the 30, and their letting gays into the priesthood.  However, this is the deepest shame to the Church that any priest should do something like this. The number of abusing priests was roughly equal to that number in the general populace. 

It is not a problem only for Catholic clergy:


It was meant to be symbolic of the crushing of Satan's head as noted in Genesis.  I personally think the whole thing is ugly.  Many poor things have been done artistically since Vatican II.  Bad art is bad art, yet it doesn't invalidate any teachings.  Artistic interpretation is not protected by the Holy Spirit.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
Did I say that? The God I worship is mindful of the illiterate and will provide the means, ultimately, for them to become literate enough to accept the Gospel of Christ, or reject it with clarity either way. Meanwhile, He expects that we do not purposefully keep people ignorant, as your Damasus did, either out of spite, or because the flurry of biblical translation/transliteration going on in the first millennium through the sixteenth century, mainly, [begun by Damasus' request to St. Jerome [Eusebius Hieronymus] in the 380s. By the 16th century, "Due to such reasons as difficulties of international communication and a lack of a well-established book market, textual corruptions continued. Isolated attempts were made to correct these corruptions." https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7470
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
People would petition the queen to ask the king for favours on their behalf.  
Why would the Holy Church absorb a worldly custom of petition to the King's mother [a Queen] to intercede for us with the King, when the King, himself, [Christ] declared himself to be our Advocate with and to the Father? That would imply the Lord's Prayer to not be an effective mode of prayer, ["after this manner, pray ye"] by praying directly to the Father, in the name of Christ, for our gratitude and supplication?
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@fauxlaw
Meanwhile, He expects that we do not purposefully keep people ignorant, as your Damasus did
You have a lot of allegations, but no actual facts.

Show me how Pope Damasus kept people ignorant.  Show me where the Church did not permit the people to read the Bible.  You refuse to back up your basic premise.

Show me how most people who lived without being able to read could afford a book that would equal 1.5 years salary.  Yes the Church has been providing the means of salvation to the people for 2000 years - whether or not they could read.  Jesus said that if you love him you will do what he tells you.  One's ability to read the scriptures will not make or prevent someone from gaining salvation.

Your main complaint is that the technology that existed for the first 1500 years of Christianity made it easy for errors.  Who created the University system - The Catholic Church.  The Church has been instrumental in setting up schooling.  The fact the protestantism could only occur with the creation of the printing press shows that it is not the church that Jesus created.  Your complaint is that the Church did not do things prior to the printing press that could not be done prior to the printing press is ridiculous.

Are you going to tell me that every Bible produced since the printing press is a perfect translation without error?  If not your argument is self invalidating.
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
Why would the Holy Church absorb a worldly custom of petition to the King's mother [a Queen] to intercede for us with the King, when the King, himself, [Christ] declared himself to be our Advocate with and to the Father? That would imply the Lord's Prayer to not be an effective mode of prayer, ["after this manner, pray ye"] by praying directly to the Father, in the name of Christ, for our gratitude and supplication?
Because this is the last command Jesus gave us - Behold thy mother.  If you have ever asked your own mother or anyone you know to pray for you, then you are a hypocrite in asking this question. If we ask sinners to pray for us how much more should we not ask those in God's very presence to pray for us?

Mary was approached at the wedding at Cana.  Jesus will not deny his mother anything that she asks for.

Everything about Mary leads directly to Jesus.  The last thing she is noted as saying - "Do as He tells you."


Does Jesus honour Mary?  Then why shouldn't you?  Or as St. Louis de Montfort explained:

“The more we honour the blessed virgin, the more we honour Jesus Christ, because we honour Mary only that we may more perfectly honour Jesus, since we go to her only as the way by which we are to find the end we are seeking, which is Jesus.”
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
-->
@DeusVult
there was no talk or mystical baptisms at florence, and a strict approach was how it was taught and understood by everyone

honestly, you look like you are brainwashed. you are taking a clear situation and trying to weasel your way out of it. you are generally good at apologetics, but that also just solidifies that you are brain washed.

might i suggest you converting to traditional catholicism or sedevacantism? those religions can at least not be stuck with the contradictions i mentioned. i mean, i do acknowledge that for a two thousand year old religion, it's hard to find clear contradictions that fit the criteria for infallibility, and i dont know how to attack those traditional catholiocisms, as far as that goes. 
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
 Who created the University system - The Catholic Church.  
Nope. "The first institution that was more fully documented was the Platonic Academy (Figure 1), founded in 387 BCE, with Aristotle's Peripatetic school founded in 335 BCE having derived from Plato's Academy. These schools generally had a select few pupils and were not institutions for mass education.[2] Perhaps one of the first truly international institutions of higher education was the Musaeum, an institutions that brought knowledge to it from around the known world. The Library of Alexandria was part of this institution and it served as a repository for knowledge not just from the Hellenistic world but also accumulated knowledge from Babylonia and Persia that had preceded Greek scholarship. The Musaeum largely functioned like an international university, where students would come to be educated by the best teachers. The Ptolemaic state was tolerant to scholarship and allowed individuals from many regions to come to Alexandria to be involved in this institution.[3]".https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_universities_develop%3F
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
Are you going to tell me that every Bible produced since the printing press is a perfect translation without error?  If not your argument is self invalidating.
No, I am not. In fact, I will allege that, even printed today, the Bible is flawed. I once met a woman whose Bible, I observed, seemed thinner than most. Said she, a Catholic, "if I don't understand something, I rip out the page. That way, I can agree with all the Bible contains." Novel approach, but, not my approach. I accept the Bible as the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. Beyond that, I depend on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide. Such as why I do not pray to Mary, or worship her, for that matter. I  pray to my Father in Heaven, to whom Christ, himself, prayed. You know, the One we are to follow and emulate. Much as I revere Mary, the mother of Jesus, as I do Eve, the mother of all living, I neither worship nor pray to them because neither can do for me what Jesus Christ has, does, and will do for me.
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@fauxlaw
Nope. "The first institution that was more fully documented was the Platonic Academy (Figure 1), founded in 387 BCE, with Aristotle's Peripatetic school founded in 335 BCE having derived from Plato's Academy. These schools generally had a select few pupils and were not institutions for mass education.[2] Perhaps one of the first truly international institutions of higher education was the Musaeum, an institutions that brought knowledge to it from around the known world. The Library of Alexandria was part of this institution and it served as a repository for knowledge not just from the Hellenistic world but also accumulated knowledge from Babylonia and Persia that had preceded Greek scholarship. The Musaeum largely functioned like an international university, where students would come to be educated by the best teachers. The Ptolemaic state was tolerant to scholarship and allowed individuals from many regions to come to Alexandria to be involved in this institution.[3]".https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_universities_develop%3F
I never said there weren't schools of learning, but they weren't like universities.  If you wanted to learn about Platonic philosophy you'd go to the Platonic School, if you wanted to learn an Aristotolean thought you'd go to the Aristotle school.

The university system was a degree system whereby other universities would recognize the degree held at a different institution.  There would be a core of required texts that students would study, on which the professors would lecture and there would be a minimum number of years of study to receive a degree.  There was a differentiation between undergrad and graduate degrees and someone with a master's degree from one university could go and teach at a different university.  This resulted in an international exchange of knowledge and challenge of thought.

fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
Show me how Pope Damasus kept people ignorant.  
Do you know the distinction of translation and transliteration? The one attempts to convert from one language the words in a second language. But such is a flawed method because it is merely an attempt to compare dictionary to dictionary, in effect. However, we run into issues jst in translation from British English to American English, for example, which is why Winston Churchill once quipped, "Great Britain and America are two countries separated by one language." Example, the two British terms, "bonnet" and "boot" are  understandable words in America, but we are confused when told they refer to parts of an automobile. The problem with dictionary-to-dictionary translations is provoked by words more distal than those two in an ancient language to a modern one. What is lacking is an understanding of the ancient culture to the modern. In the case of Damasus and St. Jerome, it's comparing the 4th century culture with that nearly 400 years in the past, let alone 2,400 years distant. Cultures change rapidly, as do their resulting languages. Language exists by virtue of culture, and is rooted in it. Dictionaries do not teach culture; the flaw in translation attempts, even as I demonstrated, from two modern, but separate cultures of America and Great Britain. Damasus and St. Jerome were unaware of the distinction between translation and transliteration, which is merely making a best guess effort  when two dictionaries' words do not match up.  Thus, flaws are introduced. Thus Damasus, even if well meaning, corrupted the scriptures by request, and denied access to the masses but by reading to them by priests.
Do I really need a direct source from Catholic archives to understand this ubiquitous problem? Why not sponsor classes in Greek and Hebrew, and sponsor production of texts in those original languages, and conduct his university to allow people access to those transcribed texts, to be read directly. That's the purpose of a university, isn't it?
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
In Europe, during the Roman and later Antiquity period, scholarship continued to follow the Platonic tradition established by the Greeks. However, these institutions were closed by the 6th century CE, due to their association with pagan practices and philosophies. With the fall of the Roman Empire, scholarship became confined to isolated monasteries. These monasteries trained individuals in learning, mostly those who became priests or monks, and began to document some of the Greek and other knowledge from the past.[7] https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_universities_develop%3F

There's your church-imposed denial of higher education from the 6th century, just 400 years following Damascus, because the knowledge was "pagan?" According to whom? And this is "degreed knowledge?" In 1,000 years, the Church knew no better, confining Galileo to house arrest for teaching that the hallowed Earth orbited the sun! Some degree program! Paganism was alive and well, in the Church!

Pfffftt
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
Mind you, I am not complaining about the modern Chruch. I am not a Catholic [I am LDS], but I recognize past foibles in my own religion, although the concept of modern revelation from God is solidly a precept of my faith. Who says God stopped speaking to man, directly, face to face, as to Moses? Absurd. Why would He deny us His presence?
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@fauxlaw
Beyond that, I depend on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide.
Soooooo, you're basically claiming what the Church says happens with the Pope?  In fact you're saying it is happening in an even fuller manner with you personally than the Church claims happens with the Pope.

So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. - Acts 8:27-31

It would seem to me that the Bible is teaching that you need someone to guide you in understanding the Bible - how can you understand unless someone explains it to you.  It doesn't say that the Holy Spirit will guide you.  It says the apostles, and I would argue that the Bible shows that they set up successors to teach in their place.

Such as why I do not pray to Mary, or worship her, for that matter.
Funny, what did the Apostles do after the Ascension but before Pentecost?  They went and Prayed with Mary - mention specifically by name.

These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. - Acts 1:14

How about the early Christians?  Have you ever thought about how they prayed?  Maybe something like this?

We fly to your patronage,
O holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us from all dangers.
O ever glorious and blessed Virgin.

Did you ever read any of the Church fathers condemning this "heresy"?  No?  Odd isn't it that such "heresy" should not be condemned by the early Church.  And all this happened before the Edict of Milan, the definition of the Trinity or the codification of the canon of scripture.  Seems like maybe you should see what early Christians believed - those who lived closest in time to the Apostles.
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@DeusVult
Sure I have, but I change my opinion to conform to what the Church teaches.  Do I like the idea of an eternal hell? No.  Do I wish that there was some way for those who go to hell to be saved?  Definitely.  However, that is not for me to choose.  The Church has been tasked with the salvation of souls and only in her can I be sure of the Truth.  If I choose what is the truth, then I make myself Pope.
I wasn't talking about what we like or dislike. I don't like the thought of Hell either. But I don't disagree with it's reality in place of scripture. I'm talking about scripture itself. You can agree that scriptures in the Bible are the words from God with a priest, but maybe not the interpretation. And an opinion isn't necessarily absolute. Like I said elsewhere, I have an opinion regarding eternal security/OSAS. I could be wrong, but I sincerely disagree with what a number of people in a church I attend, including even a pastor believes. How can you deny a sincere opinion on scripture written for you?

Do you think that salvation depends on what individuals determine is right between whether a believer can lose their salvation or not?

Factions and doctrines began early shortly after the resurrection (if not sooner). Philippians 2:2 encourages being one in spirit, and of one mind. Do you think it means agreeing on every doctrine?


Titus 3:9 suggests avoid contentions and strivings about the law. I think it was well understood that believers although united with Christ were
going to have disagreement concerning even the law. The disagreement wasn't what was causing strife.





Now that doesn't mean I agree with everything my priest, bishop, or even the current Pontiff say (I disagree with him more than I ever thought it possible to disagree with a Pope).  When they teach the faith I listen and attempt to modify my life.  When they teach their own opinions, I am not obliged to follow what they say, but I give it consideration given who it is coming from.

How do you determine what is faith being taught, and what is opinion?


Not at all.  This is central to Catholicism.  We are all about the need for grace to keep our feet on the path.  It is through unity with the Church and her sacraments that the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit are poured out upon the body of the Church.
I have to correct myself here, because I don't mean to imply that Catholics are not spirit lead. I think like in any denomination, church, bible study group, etc., there will be some spirit lead, others not.  Yes, we need guidance from human authority. This actually goes beyond guidance from clergy and other church members. Like, we need guidance from secular sources often enough (the dentist, auto mechanic, tax preparer, etc.). And there's also the responsibility of being spiritually lead personally.


We can agree that all Christian should be united. Just as The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one, all should be one in the Body of Christ.  I will say that the only true unity is through the unity that Jesus established - his Church with Peter as the cornerstone.  Everything else is ultimately disunity and error.
Yes. But why suggest a particular church organization holds all truth over other churches?


Not at all.
I have to correct myself again. They're actually Charismatic Catholics. At least a little bit of a difference.

They seem to be a part of the Catholic system, but there's the obvious opposition from mainstream Catholics.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult
It would seem to me that the Bible is teaching that you need someone to guide you in understanding the Bible - 
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e]loosed in heaven.”  

          Matthew 16: 13-19

Appears to me I have the right to receive personal revelation from my Father in Heaven through the Holy Spirit. That's truly someone, isn't it?

James 1: 2 - 6

2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Appears to me if I lack wisdom, like of the scriptures, I have the right to ask God, and, by my faith and obedience, it will be given. Why do I need an intermediary other than the Holy Spirit, as if a mortal man had better wisdom. Pfffttt.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@DeusVult

Because this is the last command Jesus gave us - Behold thy mother. 
That was not the last command of Jesus. That was from the cross. How about after his resurrection: Matthew 28:  
16f The eleven* disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17* When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18* g Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19h Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20i teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@DeusVult
First I think there is one major distinction to make.  Protestants don't understand that there is a difference between prayer and worship.  Since Protestants lack the Mass, they cannot understand the difference.

So Jesus is a king in the line of David.  In the Davidic kingdom the king's mother was the queen.  People would petition the queen to ask the king for favours on their behalf.  When Jesus told John, here is your mother he made Mary the mother of all mankind - she is the new Eve as Jesus is the new Adam.

So we petition Mary to pray for us and to help us be like her in loving her son.
I'll cite fauxlaw's response given that it's quite apt:

Why would the Holy Church absorb a worldly custom of petition to the King's mother [a Queen] to intercede for us with the King, when the King, himself, [Christ] declared himself to be our Advocate with and to the Father? That would imply the Lord's Prayer to not be an effective mode of prayer, ["after this manner, pray ye"] by praying directly to the Father, in the name of Christ, for our gratitude and supplication?
Furthermore, let's indulge a provisional validation of your reasoning: why would petitions be made to the queen mother who, by the son's ascension, enters regency? The practice of which you speak where the queen would serve as a proxy was almost always part of the capacity of the queen consort, not the queen mother (queen regent.) So you're either insinuating that Mary was Jesus's consort (a Luciferian line of reasoning given that the Mother goddess was her son's consort) or perhaps fauxlaw is correct in demonstrating your logical inconsistency when extending your premises to their logical conclusions (i.e. praying to Jesus/God isn't effective.) It's also interesting that you mentioned that Jesus and Mary were the new Adam and Eve, especially given Eve was Adam's consort, not his mother.

Last, I'm not a protestant. You're the second person to accuse me of this when arguing over Catholicism. (Your reasoning is oddly reminscent as well.)

That is a pretty specific question - and rather biased in presentation.  The origin of the Crosier is unknown.

Some writers trace an affinity with the lituus, or rod used by the Roman augurs in their divinations, while others again trace in the crosier an adaptation of the ordinary walking-sticks which were used for support on journeys and in churches before the introduction of seats (Catalani, Pont. Rom., Proleg., xx). At all events, it came at a very early date to be one of the principal insignia of the episcopal office. Just how soon is not easily determined, since in the early passages of the Fathers in which the word occurs it cannot be ascertained whether it is to be taken literally or metaphorically (see 1 Corinthians 4:21) or whether it designates an ecclesiastical ornament at all. In liturgical usage it probably goes back to the fifth century (Kirchenlex., s.v. Hirtenstab). Mention of it is made in a letter of Pope Celestine I (d. 432) to the Bishops of Vienne and Narbonne. Staffs have indeed been found in the catacombs that date from the fourth century but their ceremonial character has not been established. The first unequivocal reference to the crosier as a liturgical instrument occurs in the twenty-seventh canon of the Council of Toledo (633). At present it is employed by bishops whenever they perform solemn pontifical functions, by right in their own dioceses and by privilege outside, and by inferior prelates whenever they are privileged to exercise pontifical functions.

You might as well ask why did Moses carry the Lituus.  Popes don't currently use the Crosier.
The origin of the Lituus staff is known. I delineated its origin in a discussion I had with a former member:

The lituus staff a.k.a. the crossier are a direct descendant of "the crook" or crooked wand which was carried by Pharaoh Manes and Pharaoh Narmur/Narmer (a.k.a. Cush and Nimrod) and their pontifs. They had spread their teachings of the Kemetic mysteries to the Asyrians and Lydians who were located in Asia Minor. They were also known as the "Luds" or "Ludines." They were competent mariners who would later settle in Central Italy (which later became "Saturnia") and become known as the Estruscans. The Estruscans would later develop the Latin Church, where they practiced augury--disemboweling animals and telling fortunes based on the arrangement--and become incorporated by Constanine in his Holy Roman empire. Constantine was a pagan. Constantine was an adherent to the Babylonian and Kemetic mysteries. Before the battle of Milvian Bridge, Constantine claimed to have looked at the Sun and seen a cross of a light. This is not a reference to the Cross at Calvary, but the Ankh which represents the cross of Heru a.k.a Tammuz, especially considering that he looked at "the Sun."

It has to do with how the Jews counted time.  Any part of the day counted as the whole "day & night."
No. You can argue that the Jews didn't count time using the conventional 24 hour difference, but they didn't count just any part of the day as a whole day and night. Jesus died late on Friday. So even counting Friday, Jesus should've resurrected by Monday morning at the earliest. So why do Catholics celebrate Easter on Sunday?

Because it is Biblical.

We know that Elizabeth is in her 6th month of pregnancy when Jesus is conceived.

And behold, yourkinswoman Elizabeth in her old agehas also conceived a son; and this isthe sixth month with her who wascalled barren. For with God nothingwill be impossible.

So if we can establish when John the Baptist was  born we can establish when Jesus was born.

Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served inthe “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripturerecords as the eighth course among the twenty four priestly courses (Neh 12:17). Each shift ofpriests served one week in the temple for twotimes each year. The course of Abias servedduring the eighth week and the thirty-secondweek in the annual cycle. However, when didthe cycle of courses begin?

In our calendar, the Day ofAtonement would land anywhere fromSeptember 22 to October 8.

Zacharias and Elizabeth conceived John theBaptist immediately after Zacharias served his course. (See Luke 1:5-24) This entails that Saint John the Baptistwould have been conceived somewhere aroundthe end of September, placing John’s birth at theend of June. 

Add six months to the end of June and you get the end of December for the birth of Jesus - hence December 25.  For a fuller description:
The Course of Abia:


This was the eighth of the priestly courses of ministration inthe Temple (I Chron. 24:10), and occurred, as did the others, twice inthe year.
The "Courses" were changed every week, beginning each with a Sabbath. The reckoning commenced on the 22nd day of Tisri or Ethanim (Ap. 51. 5).This was the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles = the "GreatDay of the Feast" (John 7:37), and was a Sabbath (Lev. 23:39)
The first course fell by lot to Jehoiarib, and the eighth to Abia orAbijah (1Chron. 24:10).
Bearing in mind that all the courses served together at the threeGreat Feasts, the dates for the two yearly "ministrations" of Abiah willbe seen to fall as follows:
     The first (*1) ministration was from 12 - 18Chisleu = December 6 - 12.
     The second ministration was from 12 -18 Sivan= June 13 - 19.
The announcement therefore to Zacharias in the Temple as to the conceptionof John the Baptist took place between 12 - 18 SIVAN (June 13 -19), inthe year 5 B.C.  After finishing his "ministration", the aged priest"departed to his own house" (Luke 1:23) which was in a city (*2) in "thehill country" of Juda (verse 39).
The day following the end of the "Course of Abia" being a Sabbath (Sivan19), he would not be able to leave Jerusalem before the 20th.
The thirty miles journey would probably occupy, for an old man, a coupleof days at least.  He would therefore arrive at his house on the 21stor 22nd.  This leaves ample time for the miraculous "conception" ofElizabeth to take place on or about the 23rd of Sivan (*3) - which wouldcorrespond to June 23 -24 of that year.  The fact of the conceptionand its date would necessarily be known at the time and afterwards,and hence the 23rd of SIVAN would henceforth be associated with the conceptionof John the Baptist as the 1st of TEBETH would be with that of our Lord.
But the same influences that speedily obscured and presently obliteratedthe real dates of our Lord's "Begetting" and Birth, were also at work withregard to those of the Forerunner, and with the same results.  Assoon as the true Birth day of Christ had been shifted from its properdate, viz. the 15th of Tisri (September 29), and a Festival Day from thePagan Calendars substituted for it (viz. December 25), then everythingelse had to be altered too.

One doesn't become a saint as soon as they put on a collar.  There are many things I could discuss like the infiltration of the Catholic Church by communists in the 30, and their letting gays into the priesthood.
What about the Catholic Church is attracting these pederasts? The Catholic Church doesn't "let gays into the priesthood," at least not publicly. This issue of Pederasty has been a persistent public issue for decades (more like centuries in actuality) with thousands of cases. And if you're going to posit that the Church was infiltrated by communists in the thirties, is it then your argument that currently a communist faction in the clergy elite are perpetuating sexual abuse especially among young boys? That makes sense to you?

Once again, I'm not a protestant. (Not that you've substantiated any relevance to the distinction.) And the subject matter is Catholicism; therefore, our focus is Catholicism. The Boy Scouts of America too have an issue with pederasty, but we're not discussing the boy scouts since it isn't relevant.

It was meant to be symbolic of the crushing of Satan's head as noted in Genesis.  I personally think the whole thing is ugly.  Many poor things have been done artistically since Vatican II.  Bad art is bad art, yet it doesn't invalidate any teachings.  Artistic interpretation is not protected by the Holy Spirit.
No. Nothing in that design depicts the crushed head of Satan. Your platitude is merely apologetic.