Proposal: Make “choose winner” the default voting system in debates

Author: Tejretics ,

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  • Tejretics
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    Currently, DART has two sets of criteria Instigators can choose among to have their debate judged by. One is the “choose winner” option, in which judges vote primarily based on which side had the more convincing arguments. The other is the “four-point system,” where judges weight arguments, sources, conduct, and grammar/spelling equally. Right now, the default option in debates is the four-point system, and an Instigator can change to the “choose winner” system if they want. My proposal is to make “choose winner” the default option and allow Instigators to change the criteria to the four-point system if they want.

    My reasoning: New debaters on DART often don’t have information about what the competing systems are and are unaware of site norms. The “choose winner” option is fairer, other things equal, than the “four-point system.” Thett3 outlines the reasoning in his case here quite well (https://www.debate.org/debates/DDO-should-keep-a-voting-system-with-multiple-categories/1/), and Bluesteel does so here (https://www.debate.org/debates/DDO-should-only-have-a-more-convincing-arguments-point/1/). Hence, when a debater doesn’t have information, we should presume the fairer system, and allow them to change it if they want to. 
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @Tejretics
    That your argument goes to a failed site's policies is telling. Ever wonder why DDO failed? You want to duplicate that failure? You want to dumb-down the current default of voters having to do some serious thinking? Thanks, but no thanks.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    why is everyone old coming back?
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @Tejretics
    I don't think many people would not know what "argument", "conduct", "S&G", and "sources" mean
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    Because we are all one big happy familyyyyyyy
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @PressF4Respect
    nice..
  • Tejretics
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    --> @fauxlaw
    These weren't DDO's policies.
  • Tejretics
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    --> @PressF4Respect
    When you instigate a debate, there's no place where those are mentioned.
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @Tejretics
    In order to vote, you have to have (in theory) read the CoC, where the categories for each are stated. In addition, debaters have to have at least 100 forum posts or completed two non-FF debates. This means the people voting aren't completely new to the site. Furthermore, the four voting criteria aren't that intuitively difficult to grasp. We all have at least somewhat of an understanding of what poor sources are, of what poor grammar is, and what poor conduct looks like.
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @Tejretics
    references to DDO policies in debates. Same difference: irrelevant to DART.
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Same difference: irrelevant to DART.
    Not really. DDO and DART have similar systems and policies.
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @PressF4Respect
    Similar. Not identical. And since DDO is effectively dead [no longer supported], it is irrelevant.
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Similar. Not identical
    Exactly. There are things from there that also apply, which means that DDO isn't entirely irrelevant to DART.

    And since DDO is effectively dead [no longer supported], it is irrelevant.
    There are many elements of DART that were carried over from DDO. So in that sense, a part of DDO lives on in DART.

  • fauxlaw
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    --> @PressF4Respect
    That would argue that traits from my mother and father live in me, but I would be hard pressed to admit, and you would be hard pressed to acknowledge that I could be confused for either of them.
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @fauxlaw
    That would argue that traits from my mother and father live in me, but I would be hard pressed to admit, and you would be hard pressed to acknowledge that I could be confused for either of them.
    I never said that DDO and DART were identical, nor did I say that they could be confused for one another. I just said that there are similarities between both of them and thus DDO isn't irrelevant to DART.
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @PressF4Respect
    agree to disagree
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @fauxlaw
    agree to disagree
    agreed
  • Tejretics
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    --> @PressF4Respect
    In order to vote, you have to have (in theory) read the CoC, where the categories for each are stated. In addition, debaters have to have at least 100 forum posts or completed two non-FF debates. This means the people voting aren't completely new to the site. Furthermore, the four voting criteria aren't that intuitively difficult to grasp. We all have at least somewhat of an understanding of what poor sources are, of what poor grammar is, and what poor conduct looks like.
    1. I'm talking about debaters, not voters. Fair voting systems affect debaters a lot more than they do voters. So that's a strawman right there.
    2. You still haven't identified a single concrete harm of doing this.

  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    --> @fauxlaw
    That your argument goes to a failed site's policies is telling. Ever wonder why DDO failed? You want to duplicate that failure? You want to dumb-down the current default of voters having to do some serious thinking? Thanks, but no thanks.
    Nobody has ever wondered why DDO failed because the answer is pretty obvious. (Hint: spam bots).

    So even if DDO did have choose winner as its default option that isn't the reason it failed.

    But DDO did not have choose winner as it's default option...

    Your post is wrong on nearly every conceivable level. Literally the only thing you got right was that DDO failed (a non-sequitor).

  • Tejretics
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    --> @fauxlaw
    That's a bad argument. It's also non-specific to the arguments Thett and Bluesteel made, none of which were specific/exclusive to DDO. 
  • Mharman
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    --> @fauxlaw
    What killed DDO in the end was not the debating system. It was the constant 503s and spambots, coupled with Juggle not caring.

  • Ragnar
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    I personally prefer categorical voting, but also see the benefit of Winner Select. Especially for less serious debates.
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @Tejretics
    I'm talking about debaters, not voters. Fair voting systems affect debaters a lot more than they do voters. So that's a strawman right there.
    Alright. In that case, this point:
    Furthermore, the four voting criteria aren't that intuitively difficult to grasp. We all have at least somewhat of an understanding of what poor sources are, of what poor grammar is, and what poor conduct looks like.
    would still apply. If you've ever had a conversation, you know what proper conduct is. If you've ever written stuff in the English language, then you know what S&G is referring to, and how to not get penalized by it. If you've ever done any research of any kind, then you know what to expect from the sources category. And if you aren't familiar with one or more of those concepts, then you will become familiar with them very quickly.

    You still haven't identified a single concrete harm of doing this.
    Fauxlaw did, albeit not in the best way. While it is true that he was wrong on the DDO part, his argument shouldn't be entirely discredited, as it does have some merit. The current 4-criteria voting system encourages people to go in-depth with the reasoning behind their voting decisions. On the other hand, a rudimentary "choose winner" metric would decrease the quality of the votes, as there would be no incentive to go beyond the bare minimum of the voting eligibility – a cursory analysis of the debate arguments, with the least amount of thought put into it. True, that system would increase voting, but it would also undoubtedly do a disservice to the debaters, as it is the feedback from the votes themselves that allow them to improve their craft.

  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    Would making Select Winner the default significantly change the proportion of debates that use Select Winner over the Four Point system?

    Since the only effort needed to switch between one or the other is the click of a button, you'd think there wouldn't be much a change. Presumably, people's pre-existing preferences would be stronger than the 'cost' of taking a moment to click a button.
  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    --> @Ragnar
    I prefer categorical as well, because it reduces the arbitrariness of votes.