Chaos in Minnesota

Author: Dr.Franklin

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Vader
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@RationalMadman
You do not defeat barbaric cops by being barbaric populace, this fuels exactly what they want in order to fight back. You must be smart and patient, play this legally and get the murderer put behind bars.
+100000000000000000000
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@thett3
The people who are starting riots are ANTIFA members and white people is what is sad. That's whats messed up about it
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@thett3
Fate clearly wants Donald Trump to be reelected. He was given coronavirus to bail out his presidency and he fumbled it, and immediately afterward he was given this. Unfortunately, as recently as yesterday he was going after Joe Biden for being too tough on crime. Does he even want to win?
This isn't just a fumble, this is a fucking fumble where you are wide open running the football right down the middle where absolutely no one can touch you. You fumble the football and then try to pick up the football, but when you pick it up you keep dropping the football until you get into the redzone and the ball is moving freely
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Republicans are truly pathetic. They’re so obsessed with winning a marginally larger number of black votes that they will let bonafide riots run unchecked, at the expense of their actual base. 

How are Republicans "letting" this happen? Should the Republicans send in the National Guard every time a Democrat Governor or Mayor fucks up?
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@RationalMadman
I don't think the left wing narrative is much better but yeah, the right has proven time and time again that (at least in its current form) it's unable to lead
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@Vader
The people who are starting riots are ANTIFA members and white people is what is sad. That's whats messed up about it
I've been watching a ton of this on livestreams from around the country...from what I've seen the looters were overwhelmingly black, the rioters were a mix of black, white, and hispanic depending on the area. But the rioting crowd was always whiter than the looting crowd, which makes a lot of sense--ideologues who will travel to a location for the "cause" vs. locals taking advantage of the situation. It's gotten ridiculous at this point, what are they even trying to accomplish?
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I live in a fairly affluent area of Chicago.  It's around Northwestern Hospital.  

I have seen rioters burn police cars within blocks of my apartment, windows of established businesses and retail stores shattered, and mobs of rioters reign terror down upon my city.  Helicopters circled over the city last night.  Police formed protective barriers to prevent the rioters' onslaught into an otherwise peaceful neighborhood by the lake. 

In The Loop, which is the main business/commercial area of the city, businesses that have been here for generations have been destroyed.  Family owned, often minority owned businesses have been damaged beyond repair.  Their inventories have been looted.  Residents have been shot at by "the oppressed".  

While we have so far escaped the fires, arson, and the worst of the wanton destruction these criminals have caused; the night is still young. 

The rioters are both black and white.  Some of them are only kids.  Many of them are in their 20s and 30s.  

The looters are only black.  They are all ages.  

This form of violence does nothing to support any cause they seemingly support.  In reality, #BlackLivesMatter and its cohort, Antifa, look more to me pretexts. 

These people don't give a shit about social justice.  They just want to watch the world burn, and more specifically be the ones to set it on fire. 

If racial justice was their purpose, they would not be destroying the lives and livelihoods of minority-owned, and specifically black owned, businesses -- of which there (were) many in Chicago. 

I have sympathy for the victims of injustice; not for the agents of injustice.  These rioters are not victims.  They are the victimizers.  They disgrace their message, the cause of racial justice, and they have done irreparable harm to that cause.  Harm that will take generations to unwind.  

They are beneath contempt.  
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@ILikePie5
Do you support the violent protests: burning property down, looting, etc or no? Yes or No would suffice. I say no.
Im gonna interject on this one and try to explain things from how I see it. 

Lets assume two things. 1) That the justice system will probably drop the ball on holding people accountable and establish reforms since in recent times they almost always do, and 2) That the community/a community has reached a level of anger to the point that such anger cannot be contained. The kind of level of anger where waiting for the justice system to take its course isnt enough, some action has to be taken now to relieve some of the anger being felt...... If the goal is to try to relieve the pressure and anger of the situation given these two conditions as best as possible, there are mainly three main options to be pursued.

The first option is public protest: Marches, blocking roads, protests, etc.... These unfortunately dont often achieve any sort of meaningful policy goal towards greater racial tolerance, outside of token gestures made by local governments that dont amount to much, and a fair number of times those protests are still met with unnecessary hostility from local riot police, while portions of the media actively try to undermine the protests and try to brush over what all is going on by dismissing the reason for protest outright..... Because peaceful protest doesnt usually lead to any sort of result and often times can result in an overly-aggressive counter response from police forces, its not really an option that pacifies those in the community who are livid/enraged, and can lead to further escalation in the future. Peaceful protest sounds good in practice or on paper, in reality it usually isnt effective at obtaining any policy objective or at relieving anger being felt in the community following a bad incident. 

So option 1 is mostly ineffective at achieving policy changes, mostly ineffective at relieving anger felt in the community, and not very effective at de-escalating the situation going forward

Option 2 is looting and burning property..... Usually this is as far as it gets when a situation does escalate. Looting, the way I see it, is a release of built up frustration that has reached a critical boiling point where if it is internalized it will only lead to something worse. Looting, like a peaceful protest, is something that an entire community can exploit, so in terms of just being a release of anger in order to de-escalate things in the coming days, in a weird way it has its use.... Businesses are damaged, a fair number can retain any lost profits or damages through insurance or settlements with the state/city, and now with crowdfunding businesses can recoup damages they suffer in a matter of hours if neither of the previous options work. (Some black owned business in Minnesota was looted, the guy raised $200,000 in crowd funding to rebuild it almost overnight)..... Looting is definitely less effective at working towards any policy goal compared to peaceful protest, which is why its never the FIRST option that is pursued, but it does serve as a better release for community anger than peaceful protest does. When looting does take place, things usually calm down afterwards now that much of that anger felt in the community has been released, rather than have a 50/50 shot at escalating further when you just have peaceful protest. Just about every racial protest in US history began calming down after things escalated to the point where lootings happened, rather then only get worse and worse after lootings took place. 

So option 2 is definitely not effective at achieving policy changes, but it is quite effective at relieving anger felt in the community, and usually de-escalates a situation going forward in the coming days

Option 3, the worst of all, is targeted killings of police officers and politicians..... I can only think of one time where this became an issue, and it was in 2014 when 2 NYC police officers were shot and killed in their own police car. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_killings_of_NYPD_officers This event followed both the death of Michael brown and death of Eric Garner, two racial incidents where one didnt even lead to a Grand Jury Indictment which is unheard of for an event of that caliber..... The killing of the two officers took place 2 weeks after protests already started, but because the justice system already looked like it failed before it could even begin, outrage and anger was higher than usual, with even less hope than usual of achieving any policy change.... The circumstances got to the point that one person, who was mentally unhinged to begin with, sought out police officers to kill them and did. Damages that businesses suffer from looting can largely be replaced or repaid, but dead police officers cannot. In addition to that, targeting police officers only relieves the anger felt by the person pulling the trigger, while the rest of the community still feels outrage. 

So option 3 is also definitely not effective at achieving policy changes, but is the least effective at relieving anger felt by the community, and could re-escalate tension going forward. 

Picking from these three options, which are the main available options to be pursued by a community that is up in arms over a police brutality incident, if you operate under the (correct) belief that the justice system will probably drop the ball on the whole matter, and that few meaningful reforms can be obtained from the community in response to an incident, then the option that allows the community to release the most anger and has the highest chance of de-escalating things in the days after that is in fact looting..... Peaceful protests achieve little and release little anger while not doing much to escalate/de-escalate in coming days, Looting achieves nothing but releases a lot of anger and usually things calm down going forward, while targeted killings of police officers + politicians achieves nothing and releases almost no anger while at the same time definitely risking a rise in tension after it happens. 

Looting is not be the best resort when it comes to achieving positive reforms, but if you acknowledge that positive reforms probably wouldnt be made no matter what happened, and the priority becomes whatever option releases the anger of the situation and de-escalates things going forward after it happens, then in my opinion looting is something that can almost be forgiven/tolerated..... Historically speaking, Los Angeles used to be one of the worst cities in America in terms of cases of police brutality/abuse towards minority citizens. After the Rodney King Riots in 1992 that were the biggest lootings/riotings in national history, a lot of changes were made to the justice system/police trainings in the city, and there hasnt been a high profile incident involving the LAPD that got national attention in close to 30 years now. 

For these reasons, while they definitely shouldnt be the first resort pursued, given how flawed and inept the justice system is at settling things, I can see lootings and riots as forgivable and tolerable 

(Note this is just my personal belief and rationale, I dont represent the entire liberal population of the United States) 
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@thett3
Does he even want to win?
If he loses re-election he can try to run again in 2024 and spend the meantime trying to manipulate the GOP to his will from the outside. He's too much of a dumbass to realize that, but if someone puts the idea in his head, he wouldnt immediately dismiss the idea of sabotaging himself since it means he gets to stay relevant halfway until almost 2030 
RationalMadman
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Stay home or play it safe as possible with your route to and from work as a healthcare worker.  If you don't work for a major supermarket but a smaller outlet, beg them to give you time off or quit, period. Be safe, there is a lethal virus spreading among these idiots on top of their barbarism. 
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@coal
I live in a fairly affluent area of Chicago.  It's around Northwestern Hospital.  

I have seen rioters burn police cars within blocks of my apartment, windows of established businesses and retail stores shattered, and mobs of rioters reign terror down upon my city.  Helicopters circled over the city last night.  Police formed protective barriers to prevent the rioters' onslaught into an otherwise peaceful neighborhood by the lake. 

In The Loop, which is the main business/commercial area of the city, businesses that have been here for generations have been destroyed.  Family owned, often minority owned businesses have been damaged beyond repair.  Their inventories have been looted.  Residents have been shot at by "the oppressed".  

While we have so far escaped the fires, arson, and the worst of the wanton destruction these criminals have caused; the night is still young. 

The rioters are both black and white.  Some of them are only kids.  Many of them are in their 20s and 30s.  

The looters are only black.  They are all ages.  

This form of violence does nothing to support any cause they seemingly support.  In reality, #BlackLivesMatter and its cohort, Antifa, look more to me pretexts. 

These people don't give a shit about social justice.  They just want to watch the world burn, and more specifically be the ones to set it on fire. 

If racial justice was their purpose, they would not be destroying the lives and livelihoods of minority-owned, and specifically black owned, businesses -- of which there (were) many in Chicago. 

I have sympathy for the victims of injustice; not for the agents of injustice.  These rioters are not victims.  They are the victimizers.  They disgrace their message, the cause of racial justice, and they have done irreparable harm to that cause.  Harm that will take generations to unwind.  

They are beneath contempt.  

I heard the rioters are moving in the suburbs and are planning to raid. I work at a department store and we had to evacuate ASAP when we heard the rioters were coming north. This is a HORRIBLE idea. People where I live are ARMED with guns, especially in the richer neighborhoods
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@Vader
And soon we will see what happens when you let the populace fight each other with guns instead of being a responsible police force and taking the guns from them. Don't say it can't be done, it has in other European and Asian countries, it just takes a lot of effort. After the NZ incident, Australia and NZ are doing it successfully also.

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@Imabench
I sort of skimmed what you wrote and it looks like you are arguing that "the oppressed" have no other option but to engage in violence.  

This is mistaken.  There is always an alternative to violence, and the alternatives are far more numerous than you have described.  
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@coal
 There is always an alternative to violence, and the alternatives are far more numerous than you have described.  
Such as? from what I can tell, the US has become so jaded and unreliable that there really isnt any effective route that can be taken to achieve reforms, so whatever releases community anger the most is the next best option. 
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@Imabench
You are a person who thinks in terms of 'releasing anger' as being the endgame of a conflict. This is not a lie, it was a refreshingly honest post from you and many at this point are thinking that way but there is absolutely no situation where 'releasing anger' is the endgame, it is merely a distraction from the true path to victory.

Releasing anger is simply a thug's way of handling a situation that a mastermind would handle far better by controlling their anger and pacing their actions. All these riots are proving is that the government is incapable of controlling the people, it 0% proves that the cops are corrupt or evil. Of course, you will tell me I am wrong or that this is untrue. 

This has happened before, it was a situation similar in UK and riots and looting occured as well (but only in London and somewhat in Manchester, most other places didn't experience it nearly as widespread as it is becoming in US). The difference was that the cops came down harsh on it and fully explained what they'd do to ensure no untoward killing of a criminal happened by a cop's hands ever again. The people settled down after a couple of weeks and because the British don't have guns and genuinely fear cops in general, the worst that happened was smashed glass pretty much.  Generally speaking even at its most violent, even if a shopkeeper put up a significant fight things were simply grabbed and the people ran out. 

In the US, the reason that far more brutality is occuring is because as a culture it is a core value that freedom matters more than safety and harmony within US culture. This has led to a mentality that when angered, suddenly no rules apply anymore.

I am not suggesting that the UK riots were ok or that it was entirely nonviolent whatsoever. It's about the scale and frequency.
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@RationalMadman
ok, but the underlying problem is systemic racism. Black people get treated as 2nd class citizens at best, both by society at large but especially by the police. there have been lots of attempts to protest this that go completely ignored (both by republicans and by democrats). So people have learned that peacefully protesting is useless and the only way to get attention to the issue is violence. And since the police have been actively making things worse (attacking peaceful protesters, arresting or shooting journalists) they are only making the problem worse and proving the protesters are right. The police have become militarized and see themselves as above the laws they are enforcing. 

what other option do you think the protesters have?
Greyparrot
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Fundamentally changing the country, one Nike store at a time.
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@Greyparrot
Fundamentally changing the country, one Nike store at a time.
you seem to think that the looters and protesters are the same people, they are not. one group is looking to protest and better their situation and the country's. The other is looking to steal stuff and destroy things under the cover of the protests.  I know it's easier to blow off the whole situation and describe all of them as violent thugs, but the reason the situation is so bad is because that is exactly what people have been doing for year. They point to some bad actors and ignore the problem. 
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@HistoryBuff
Plot Twist, Trump secretly funds Antifa to start riots, just so he can become an authoritarian dictator.
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@Greyparrot
Plot Twist, Trump secretly funds Antifa to start riots, just so he can become an authoritarian dictator.
well he does really want to be an authoritarian dictator. but history has proven he is far too stupid to be able to secretly fund a group and not have people find out. he can't even fund a porn star without it leaking. 

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@HistoryBuff
Orangemanbad can do it because he has the power of Orange.
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@HistoryBuff
you seem to think that the looters and protesters are the same people, they are not. one group is looking to protest and better their situation and the country's. The other is looking to steal stuff and destroy things under the cover of the protests.  I know it's easier to blow off the whole situation and describe all of them as violent thugs, but the reason the situation is so bad is because that is exactly what people have been doing for year. They point to some bad actors and ignore the problem

I know it's easier to blow off the whole situation and describe all of white skinned police officers as violent thugs, but the reason the situation is so bad is because that is exactly what people on the left have been doing for years. They point to some bad actors and ignore the problem of systemic tribal divisions in the country based on skin shade created and promoted by actors that would see the country dismantled. America has plenty of enemies within and without.. 
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@Greyparrot
Orangemanbad can do it because he has the power of Orange.
no. he's too stupid to pull it off. The only way he succeeds in becoming the dictator he wants to be is if his cult followers fight to destroy democracy. And there is the very real threat they will do that. 

I know it's easier to blow off the whole situation and describe all of white skinned police officers as violent thugs
when did I, or anyone else, say that all white skinned police officers are violent thugs? Going strong on the straw man arguments today. 

but the reason the situation is so bad is because that is exactly what people on the left have been doing for years. 
no one is doing that. They are saying there is systemic racism, not that all white cops are violent thugs. 

They point to some bad actors and ignore the problem of systemic tribal divisions in the country based on skin shade created and promoted by actors that would see the country dismantled. America has plenty of enemies within and without.. 
the problem isn't just a few bad actors. If it were then when these incidents occurred they would be getting punished for it and the bad actors would quickly be out of a job. But that isn't what generally happens. most of the time the system closes ranks around the cops committing the crimes and prevent justice from being done. That is why the issue is so bad, they get away with this sort of behavior for years and end up training more cops who learn that this behavior is acceptable. Take this specific guy who just committed murder, he had 18 complaints filed with the internal affairs department in 18 years on the force. He never received any kind of significant punishment until he literally murdered someone. 
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@Imabench
Such as? from what I can tell, the US has become so jaded and unreliable that there really isnt any effective route that can be taken to achieve reforms, so whatever releases community anger the most is the next best option. 
Such as nonviolent political action in any one of the scores of forms that can take.  Civil disobedience is the first and most obvious that comes to mind.  It is not only effective, it is the only form of resistance to oppression that does not poison the target audience against the activists.  

This is what the Antifa or Black Lives Matter people are too inept to understand.  

Every form of political action is evaluated on at least two levels: the objective and the means to that objective.  However noble any objective may be, if the means to that objective become alienating to the target audience, the activists have lost. 

Political activism is, before it is anything else, an act of public persuasion.  What that means is that you, as a political activist, have to over come public apathy to whatever problem you're rallying against and do so without making the public hate you.  Then, once the public cares and you have their attention, you begin to win them to your way of thinking. 

But if you lose the public's good will, you have lost any chance to win them to your way of thinking.  This is why MLK (and like every other political organizer who ever made a difference) insisted, to the end, on *never* resorting to violence no matter what violence was waged against him or those who followed him.  He understood, correctly, that as soon as those who challenged power engaged in the same or similar methods as the power they were resisting, good will in the public would be vitiated.  Not just lost; but vitiated.  

So marches, sit ins, and political organization and mobilization are forms of nonviolent options.  Go back and look at what happened in Freedom Summer; when college students registered tens of thousands of blacks to vote, and they voted, for the first time.  

And if you want to know if I'm right, look at the historical record.  How are the Weathermen remembered?  As terrorists.  How is MLK remembered?  As a civil rights leader.  

Think about how Bloody Sunday might have been remembered if the marchers fought back. 

Means matter as much as ends.  


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@HistoryBuff
 most of the time the system closes ranks around the cops committing the crimes and prevent justice from being done.

That's not even remotely true. The number of deaths caused by police on compliant unarmed people can be counted on one hand out of billions of encounters. There isn't anything "fundamentally" wrong with the police system, or it would be far more than a handful out of billions of encounters and interactions. If anything, the police system has become much less authoritative and less willing to engage criminals, as we saw with the mass stand-down orders from every Democrat leader. The very real problem is with people using a handful of those bad cops to incite riots to fundamentally change the country into a collection of warring tribal states based on skin shade and country of origin.

Let's assume you think there is something fundamentally wrong with the police system. What exactly would you change?
What system do you think can protect Americans?
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@Greyparrot
That's not even remotely true. The number of deaths caused by police on compliant unarmed people can be counted on one hand out of billions of encounters.
oh i'm sure that is true. because after a cop kills them, they were "resisting arrest". Even in this case the cops said he was resisting when video proves he wasn't. I'm sure there are very few cases where a cop would admit he killed someone who was compliant and unarmed. 

There isn't anything "fundamentally" wrong with the police system, or it would be far more than a handful out of billions of encounters and interactions.
i've already established above why this "stat" is irrelevant. But I will add to it that it is not limited to murder. Police are much more likely to harass, assault, or arrest without cause a black person than a white person. They don't have to straight up murder someone for it to be racism. 

If anything, the police system has become much less authoritative and less willing to engage criminals, as we saw with the mass stand-down orders from every Democrat leader. 
ok. so political leaders in some places ordered the cops not to attack people. That doesnt say anything about whether or not there is systemic racism in the police. 

The very real problem is with people using a handful of those bad cops to incite riots to fundamentally change the country into a collection of warring tribal states based on skin shade and country of origin.
so, black people who want the same rights that white people have are try to "change the country into a collection of warring tribal states based on skin shade and country of origin"? That doesn't even make any sense. Black people want to be able to go about their lives without being harassed by police. They want to be able to interact with the police without the inherent threat of immediate and overwhelming violence because a cop felt like it. White people have that. 

Let's assume you think there is something fundamentally wrong with the police system. What exactly would you change?
I don't pretend to have all the answers. But for starters we need much stricter punishments for cops who break the rules. we need mass firings of police who have records of abuse. Because if you have a record of abuse in a system that turns a blind eye to it, you are probably really bad. We need to strip out the command structure of police in areas that are particularly bad. Any area where these issues happen, commanders should either be coming down hard on the violators or the commanders are fired. 

These are just ideas of course. But the point is that the police have a culture of protecting their own and being above the law. That needs to be broken. And minor changes to policy or personnel won't cut it as long as the underlying culture survives. 
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@HistoryBuff
These are just ideas of course. But the point is that the police have a culture of protecting their own and being above the law. 

That's an easy fix. Make it illegal for government employees to form worker unions.
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They want to be able to interact with the police without the inherent threat of immediate and overwhelming violence because a cop felt like it. 

Are you including DINDUS in your group of "they"?

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@Greyparrot
That's an easy fix. Make it illegal for government employees to form worker unions.
why would that fix anything at all? Cops feel like they need to have each others backs. It is an "us vs. them" mentality. They feel like they are above the law as they are the enforces of the law. A union might help feed this mentality, but it is not the source of it. 

Are you including DINDUS in your group of "they"?
i'm not familiar with this term. From what i can gather is is racist slang for black people which implies all black people are criminals. So this seems to be evidence that your thoughts on the subject are from a rather racist lens. 
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@HistoryBuff
why would that fix anything at all? 

Do some research.

i'm not familiar with this term. 

Do some research.