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@HistoryBuff
But having a government run by, and for, the rich isn't freedom. It is tyranny.
Everyone in government will always be rich because you voted to give them more power every year.
Elect Joe Biden, your taxes are going up. Period
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@Greyparrot
Everyone in government will always be rich because you voted to give them more power every year.
No, there are ways we can get money out of politics. But reducing the power of the government only increases the power corporations have over you. The government are the only ones with the power to reign in corporations.
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@HistoryBuff
Sorry bud, but if you give someone power, they can always translate that into money. Every time. There's no way to reduce corruption without reducing power. The founding fathers knew this when they decentralized the power with 3 branches of government.
The government are the only ones with the power to reign in corporations.
Pure bullshit. Consumers ultimately control which corporations have the power in a market free from government meddling.
Especially in today's cancel culture where a corporation can be literally canceled by consumers for not virtue signaling.
Do you really think we need a bloated powerful corrupt government to have nearly all corporations copy and paste an apology to Blacks and support for BLM?
Cancel culture consumers made that happen, not the government.
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@HistoryBuff
I understand the US is more prosperous than other countries, but that doesn't mean it's economy isn't fundamentally flawed
Once again [this is becoming habitual], history proves it is not your friend. Show me another economic system that has endured longer than America's free-market, capitalist system. Show me one. It isn't marxism/socialism.communism, because that string has never endured longer than 100 years, and typically it is far less. Average is 40 years. America? 230 years, and counting.
an economy that has been rigged to funnel as much money as possible to a tiny percentage of the population.
And I ask, again, what is stopping you from participating in that small percentage? I note your hesitation to respond to the question, because you are that stop. Get out of your own way. Break the mirror. Is that so hard you're afraid of it?
the economic problems are caused by both parties
No, they are caused by individuals who give up on themselves.
having a government run by, and for, the rich isn't freedom. It is tyranny.
No. Show me the last time you worked for somebody who was poor. SHOW ME!!!!! My God, this is not rocket science, but you get in your own way. MOVE!
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@HistoryBuff
No, there are ways we can get money out of politics.
There is ultimately ONLY one way.
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@Greyparrot
There is ultimately ONLY one way.
to keep the rich and powerful from controlling you? Yeah pretty much. If you have a weak government, then the rich have nothing to counteract their power over you. If you have a strong government where special interest groups and political donors have all the sway, then the rich still have all the power over you (but at least the elected officials have to sort of listen to what the public wants).
The only way to move forward is a strong government with strict laws to keep money and lobbying out of the halls of power.
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@fauxlaw
Show me another economic system that has endured longer than America's free-market, capitalist system. Show me one.
america doesn't have a free market system. So I can't possibly do that. The government meddles in the market constantly.
And I ask, again, what is stopping you from participating in that small percentage?
vast competition for dwindling resources. There is a tiny, tiny chance for people to become wealthy in america. And there is massive competition for it. The rich do everything they can to prevent people from accomplishing this. A tiny group of people will succeed at this, but by design, the vast, vast majority will fail. So while yes, it is possible I could do that. But I see the corrupt design of the system. I want that corruption ended. I don't want to succeed by condemning other hard working people to poverty.
the economic problems are caused by both partiesNo, they are caused by individuals who give up on themselves.
no, it is caused by an intentionally flawed design. The system is designed to reinforce the wealth of the rich, while punishing those without it.
having a government run by, and for, the rich isn't freedom. It is tyranny.No. Show me the last time you worked for somebody who was poor. SHOW ME!!!!! My God, this is not rocket science, but you get in your own way. MOVE!
I have no idea how your response was related to what I said. I was saying that the rich use their money and influence to make sure the government passes laws that benefit them at the expense of others. Thus we are ruled by the rich, and it is tyranny. Your response was completely unrelated.
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@HistoryBuff
then the rich have nothing to counteract their power over you.
You have claimed this over 100 times.
Exactly what power specifically does ANY rich man have over you personally?
Now, exactly what power specifically does EVERY rich man have over you personally?
Lastly, if at some point in your life, others view you as "rich", what powers do you think you could have over other people?
I really feel at some point in your life, you learned helplessness; and someone told you that your helplessness was due to mysterious rich men.
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@Greyparrot
Exactly what power specifically does ANY rich man have over you personally?
without a strong central government? They control your environment. They can dump toxins in your water, build a strip mine in a residential area etc. The reason they can't do those things (mostly) is that the government passes regulations for how much pollutants they can create, or where they can build disruptive businesses.
They control your safety. Without federal regulations on health and safety standards, they could force you to work whatever hours they want, in whatever unsafe conditions they want, etc. The government prevents them from doing that.
They control your health. Most people are dependent on their jobs for their healthcare insurance. this gives their boss huge leverage over them. Are you really going to take action trying to get a raise when he can just threaten to cut off your health insurance? Probably not.
Without a government to reign in the abuses of corporations, they can do a great many things to negatively impact your life.
Now, exactly what power specifically does EVERY rich man have over you personally?
currently, they fund the campaigns of politicians that will do anything in their power to prevent any real change being made. The rich like the current broken system because it benefits them immensely. So the rich have the power to fund (or de-fund) any politician they want. In many cases this makes or breaks a politician's career. This keeps them in line and continuing to favor the rich at the expense of everyone else.
Lastly, if at some point in your life, others view you as "rich", what powers do you think you could have over other people?
individually? I would have power over people I employed. However, the wealth of all the other rich people would drown out any attempt i made to bring about change. The wealthy class work together well when it comes to protecting their interests.
They control your environment. They can dump toxins in your water, build a strip mine in a residential area etc.
That's a great way to make yourself poor and your lawyers rich.
currently, they fund the campaigns of politicians.
They don't rush to fund an elected head of a small town. Why? Because government officials with little power are not worth purchasing. The ONLY way to reduce corruption is to take power away.
They control your health.
That's bullshit. First off, 95% of health problems can be avoided by personal choices that have absolutely nothing with a mythical "rich man"
Second off, there are ridiculous amounts of ways for poor people to get the other 5% taken care of that don't include the mythical "rich man", including unlimited emergency care visits.
I would have power over people I employed.
Not if you want them to stay you don't. Employment is a contract where 2 people AGREE on something. You don't exert any more power over an employee that they do not willingly give you.
Unfortunately, many employees were raised with learned helplessness. Just like you were, so they don't understand that the power is actually in your hands, not a rich person's hands.
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@fauxlaw
What do you know about learned helplessness?
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@Greyparrot
They control your environment. They can dump toxins in your water, build a strip mine in a residential area etc.That's a great way to make yourself poor and your lawyers rich.
Why? Companies wriggle out of this sort of stuff all the time. And with a weak central government, why would you think the courts would do anything about it?
They don't rush to fund an elected head of a small town. Why? Because government officials with little power are not worth purchasing. The ONLY way to reduce corruption is to take power away.
That is what is known as a power vacuum. You take it away from the government, and someone else will come in and take that power. There is no such thing as getting rid of power. We can only hope to control who has that power, and put proper limits and controls on them.
That's bullshit. First off, 95% of health problems can be avoided by personal choices that have absolutely nothing with a mythical "rich man"
what? that is just stupid on the face of it. Corona virus being a perfect example. You can do everything right and still get sick. The fact that people are dependent on their employer for healthcare means their employer has the however of life and death over their employees.
Second off, there are ridiculous amounts of ways for poor people to get the other 5% taken care of that don't include the mythical "rich man", including unlimited emergency care visits.
are you suggesting that the government should pay for emergency care? Don't you consider that communism?
Not if you want them to stay you don't. Employment is a contract where 2 people AGREE on something. You don't exert any more power over an employee that they do not willingly give you.
that would be true assuming they had other options. But since all employment scenario's involve your employer gaining power over you, it isn't really something that is optional.
Unfortunately, many employees were raised with learned helplessness. Just like you were, so they don't understand that the power is actually in your hands, not a rich person's hands.
I haven't learned helplessness. If I had I would meekly submit to the corrupt system as you would like people to do.
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@HistoryBuff
If I had I would meekly submit to the corrupt system as you would like people to do.
You mean meekly voting for more power for the elites in Washington D.C. And fewer choices and liberty for yourself. I get it.
Learned helplessness in action.
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@Greyparrot
You mean meekly voting for more power for the elites in Washington D.C. And fewer choices and liberty for yourself. I get it.Learned helplessness in action.
you voted for trump. He is a billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. You are constantly shilling for powerful elites to rule you.
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@HistoryBuff
you voted for trump. He is a billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. You are constantly shilling for powerful elites to rule you.
You mean all those elites that ran a fake impeachment and a fake investigation on him knowing for 2 years there was no Russian collusion?
You mean All those elites in both parties that vetoed anything Trump proposed because it would challenge their power?
You mean those Elites?
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@Greyparrot
You mean all those elites that ran a fake impeachment and a fake investigation on him knowing for 2 years there was no Russian collusion?
what are you talking about? They proved collusion. the trump campaign had dozens of contacts with russians that they had sworn didn't exist.
You mean All those elites in both parties that vetoed anything Trump proposed because it would challenge their power?
Trump is himself an elite. He was born incredibly rich. He had vast wealth handed to him. Why do you think different groups of elites fighting for power means one of those groups of elites is somehow a normal guy?
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@HistoryBuff
Why do you think different groups of elites fighting for power means one of those groups of elites is somehow a normal guy?
Because Trump obviously is not in their elite club. Duh.
what are you talking about?
The truth is, the Obama Administration, which first launched the Trump/Russia investigations and kept the pedal to the metal all the way up through the election, already knew there was nothing there.
Thursday, the House Intelligence Committee released transcripts from its years-long investigation into the matter.
President Obama’s Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told the committee in the summer of 2017 that he’d seen no evidence of collusion.
“I never saw any direct empirical evidence that the Trump campaign or someone in it was plotting/conspiring with the Russians to meddle with the election,” Clapper explained.
Indeed, the committee asked the administration witnesses the same basic question: Had they seen or been in possession of evidence of coordination or collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign?
Samantha Power, Obama’s former Ambassador to the UN answered this way: “I am not in possession of anything — I am not in possession and didn’t read or absorb information that came from out of the intelligence community.”
National Security Adviser Susan Rice answered, “I don’t recall any intelligence or evidence to that effect.”
Former Attorney General Loretta Lynch was a little more cagey in her response, saying that she did “not recall that being briefed up to me.”
Other records released show that high-ranking FBI officials knew that the infamous Steele Dossier was not found to be credible and that by early 2017 agents were requesting an end to the investigation when leadership at the agency intervened.
By all the evidence available, it appears they plotted about how to snag Flynn in a perjury trap. Records show that they brainstormed how to approach him. According to notes unearthed last week, Bill Priestep, the FBI’s former head of counterintelligence questioned in a note, “What’s our goal? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?”
James Comey’s FBI had bypassed the White House Counsel in order to get Flynn to participate in what he was only to find out later was a criminal interrogation. James Comey bragged about his clever ploy in a subsequent interview, musing that it was “something I probably wouldn’t have done or maybe gotten away with in a more … organized administration.”
The evidence is becoming clearer and clearer. The Obama Administration used intelligence services to snag President Trump on obstruction charges, using a manufactured narrative of Russian collusion as their justification and Michael Flynn as their primary tool.
Justice must be served. Plotters, conspirators and participants on every level need to face the music.
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@Greyparrot
Because Trump obviously is not in their elite club. Duh.
ok, he is in a slightly different elite club. One which believes in racism and cutting taxes on the rich. Sounds like the republican elites to me.
The evidence is becoming clearer and clearer. The Obama Administration used intelligence services to snag President Trump on obstruction charges, using a manufactured narrative of Russian collusion as their justification and Michael Flynn as their primary tool.
You do understand that "collusion" is not a legal term? There is no crime called collusion? The trump administration had dozens of contacts with the Russians when they swore over and over they had no contact with the Russians. That is collusion. But as I said, collusion is not a legal term.
cutting taxes on the rich. Sounds like the republican elites to me.
Then you haven't been paying attention. Rich people donate to both parties for the same corrupt reasons.
You think Amazon gives a shit about AOC? There's plenty of other Democrats that can be bought off.
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@Greyparrot
Then you haven't been paying attention. Rich people donate to both parties for the same corrupt reasons.
true, the elites in both parties are engaged in corruption to make the rich richer.
You think Amazon gives a shit about AOC? There's plenty of other Democrats that can be bought off.
I think they are concerned about her. But not as much as they should be.
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@HistoryBuff
america doesn't have a free market system
The hell it doesn't. It is the most successful free-market system in the world, and it is entirely open and available to anyone3 with the grit to be ambitious, plan, and execute. Period. Again, I remind you of Jeff Bezos. I don't like the guy much, don't like his politics, but he did it from nothing. He was not a silver-spoon kid. Ordinary middle class. Liker you and me. My advantage is that I do not buy that I am limited in my republic. Sorry about yours.
The government meddles in the market constantly.
What was meddling was Bush / Oba'a qualitative easement by the Fed printing funny money, and the Oba'a/Biden fiscal policy of cash for clunkers, et al. There's a term you ignore that has been a watchword of the Trump administration: De-regulation, meaning government getting out of the business of the private sector. Catch up, please, you're still mesmerized by Oba'a.
vast competition for dwindling resources.
Like I said, you're still mesmerized by Oba'a. Oba'a told you there comes a time when you have made enough money. WRONG!!!! There is no natural limit to the money supply. As long as we continue to have innovative people in both commodity/product development, you'll have growth. Argue for your limitations; they're yours, but don't impose them on anybody else.
The system is designed to reinforce the wealth of the rich, while punishing those without it.
The system doesn't need to punish anybody. The system welcomes people who are willing to be ambitious, plan and execute. It's the people who won't do those things who punish themselves, like you're punishing yourself, complaining that the rich are punishing you. So, be rich. What's stopping you? YOU, yourself, bud. I've had it telling you that. Yoiu obviously think you can't, so why should I keep telling you. If you're not willing to try, I can't help you. So, be punished. It's self-inflicted. Stop blaming everyone else. Or don't. It's entirely up to you. No one else will do it for you. Now, if that's punishing, that's too damn bad.
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@Greyparrot
Learned helplessness. Never heard the term, but I can easily guess what it's about. No one is naturally completely stupid; it is a learned behavior by not pushing the envelop of ignorance. Once learned, it becomes habit, and is even self-defeating by repeating the pattern - habits being that very thing. Am I close?
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@fauxlaw
The hell it doesn't. It is the most successful free-market system in the world
free market economies don't have governments picking winners and losers by giving huge tax incentives to specific companies. Free market economies don't have the government handing out trillions to corporations. America is not a free market economy.
What was meddling was Bush / Oba'a qualitative easement by the Fed printing funny money, and the Oba'a/Biden fiscal policy of cash for clunkers, et al.
ok, so you acknowledge there has been decades of the government meddling in the economy, but still insist it is a free market economy? Which is it? Does the government meddle in the economy, or is it a free market? It can't be both.
As long as we continue to have innovative people in both commodity/product development, you'll have growth.
true, and the profits from that growth almost entirely end up in the hands of a tiny little slice of the population. As the top 1% soak up more and more of the money, the middle and working class get slowly squeezed out.
The system doesn't need to punish anybody. The system welcomes people who are willing to be ambitious, plan and execute.
of course it does. Because the system is designed to reward those who are already wealthy and punish those who are not. If you are rich and are not an idiot, then you will get richer. If you are poor, you need to work your ass off just to avoid starving. A huge percent of your income needs to go into feeding your family and keeping a roof over your head.
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@HistoryBuff
@fauxlaw
Learned helplessness. Never heard the term, but I can easily guess what it's about.
Watch this short video.
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@HistoryBuff
free market economies don't have governments picking winners and losers
Nonsense. "A free market economy is one where supply and demand regulate production and labor as opposed to the government." https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040915/what-are-some-examples-free-market-economies.asp. In the USA, the government does not regulate production and labor. Those decisions are made in the private sector. However, the "participatory budgeting" proposal of the Green New Deal would haver gov't embed itself in those decisions. Look it up. Thereforer, as of now, te US government allows a free-market system.
Does the government meddle in the economy, or is it a free market? It can't be both.
"Government highly control some economies. In planned economies, or command economies, the government controls the means of production and the distribution of wealth, dictating the prices of goods and services and the wages workers receive. In a free market economy, the law of supply and demand, rather than a central government, regulates production and labor. Companies sell goods and services at the highest price consumers are willing to pay while workers earn the highest wages companies are willing to pay for their services. A purely capitalist economy is a free market economy; the profit motive drives all commerce and forces businesses to operate as efficiently as possible to avoid losing market share to competitors." ibid.
Yes, even in a free market, there is some necessary gov't regulation. See US Constitution, Article I, section 8.
As the top 1% soak up more and more of the money, the middle and working class get slowly squeezed out.
You are mesmerized, still, by Oba'a, who effectivey tyold you the money supply is a finite commodity. He is wrong, as I explain4ed in my #111: "As long as we continue to have innovative people in both commodity/product development, you'll have growth. Argue for your limitations; they're yours, but don't impose them on anybody else."
Because the system is designed to reward those who are already wealthy and punish those who are not
According to you; a proven mudded stick believing he has limited potential when. I have offered examples that you are not limited by anyone or anything but yourself. Keep sucking on that teat. More for me, except, there is no limit, so less for you by choice. That's on you, bud.
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@fauxlaw
In the USA, the government does not regulate production and labor.
of course they do. They regulate how many hours you can work. They regulate what safety precautions businesses have to take. They regulate what days you get off. The list goes on and on and on. America does not have a free market economy. It has aspects of it, but the government meddles in many aspects of the market, often for the betterment of society.
Yes, even in a free market, there is some necessary gov't regulation. See US Constitution, Article I, section 8.
you just defined a free market economy as one where the market determines production and labor. I just pointed out a bunch of ways the government makes decisions about labor and production.
You are mesmerized, still, by Oba'a, who effectivey tyold you the money supply is a finite commodity.
I never said that. Money is an artificial construct that we created. We can create as much of it as we want. But our economy is designed to funnel as much of it as possible to the very top. The problem isn't how much money there is, it is that it is all being intentionally concentrated in as few hands as possible making our economy extremely unbalanced.
I have offered examples that you are not limited by anyone or anything but yourself.
You have offered examples of how extremely lucky cases can succeed in a rigged game. But the occasional winner does not mean the game isn't rigged. People win the lottery all the time, but that doesn't mean that playing the lottery is going to make you money. Statistically, almost everyone who plays it is losing money and a tiny percentage make alot. It is designed to soak up money from a huge number of people and concentrate it in a very few hands while skimming off chunks for the people running it.
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@fauxlaw
So, I'm interested in knowing some of the countries you have visited.
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@HistoryBuff
Your problem, IMO, is that you do not appreciate what you have.no, the problem in an economy that has been rigged to funnel as much money as possible to a tiny percentage of the population. I understand the US is more prosperous than other countries, but that doesn't mean it's economy isn't fundamentally flawed.
You won't find perfection. Would you rather live in a socialist country? That is the way you are going. Do you understand what socialism does?
Many problems in much of your economy have been created and perpetuated by the Democrat Party.the economic problems are caused by both parties. Both of them have almost identical fiscal policies. Basically, funnel as much money to the rich and corporations, then those corporations funnel some of that money back into the political campaigns of those politicians.
There is a glaring difference between the policies of the two parties. Again, which is the lesser of two evils? Which is more just? From an outsider it is obvious.
It has a priceless commodity they the people of those countries seek - freedom!no one is saying america shouldn't be free. But having a government run by, and for, the rich isn't freedom. It is tyranny.
No, what is happening on university campuses and indoctrinated into the school and education system is a robbery of freedom for those who are conservative and not politically correct. And if it can happen to those it can certainly happen to the rest. Your 1st and 2nd Amendment rights are in danger, IMO. Freedom of speech, freedom to carry arms, justice for all are under attack. These are some of the things you are in danger of losing along with your economic prosperity. Not only this, but the gatekeepers of your society (the media, arts and entertainment, politicians, the court system) are already liberal-minded and largely liberal governed. You are being indoctrinated and wooed by socialism. As I said before, examine where this has worked. Biden, with his new environmental and energy policies, will bankrupt your country. The change is more than you can handle (I think it is largely hype that you only have 12 years before it is irreparable). And what happens if it is achievable? What good would it do if you cannot curtail China or India or third world countries?
Not only this, but the Chinese threat is also growing. The Democrats have spent 3 1/2 years hunting Trump while ignoring your national security and foreign policy. Shifty Shiff as head of the foreign intel committee has been useless. Thank goodness the Trump administration is somewhat aware of this problem. I've watched a few programs about China and you should take notice. Bubbling Biden is not going to help the situation. He is going to feed power to China. And what about all the unfair trade deals that these liberal politicians have made that have given your countries wealth to others at your expense? Good luck with Biden. You will need it. He is about to make America unrecognizable if elected, in my opinion.
With the wrong person in office may cause irreparable damage.
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@PGA2.0
You won't find perfection. Would you rather live in a socialist country?
again, your argument appears to be that there are worse countries, so we should do nothing to address critical flaws in the way our economy is designed. That is an extremely weak argument.
That is the way you are going. Do you understand what socialism does?
democratic socialism is already widespread in modern countries. Places like Canada and the UK have been providing healthcare to their people for a long time and their economies are fine. Their democracies are still going strong. The idea that if the government provides services to it's people that communism is going to spring up is something no one should believe.
There is a glaring difference between the policies of the two parties.
I'm curious what you think the difference is? I mean they are extremely similar on every point. the only real difference is culture war nonsense. On most issues that matter they totally agree (and not in a good way)
With the wrong person in office may cause irreparable damage.
very true. But luckily he will be gone in a few months. Hopefully the damage can be undone though.
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@HistoryBuff
of course they do. They regulate how many hours you can work.
You have entirely missed my whole point. The gov't regulates nothing in my work. I am unfettered, but then, I don't work for anybody but me, and I set my hours and days, what I produce, and when and how, because I don't work for money; it works for me. It would work for you, too, but you're tied to Oba'a who expected you never to succeed, and, voila, you don't. What a surprise. Like I said; get rid of that guy who is limiting you. The you occupying you now. You don't have to admit you are mesmerized by Oba'a; it's obvious. You keep drinking his economic principles as if they are some magic elixir, and repeating them.
The rest of your nonsense follows like a dutiful, but limited puppy.