When Will They Ever Get It Right

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

07.20.2020 05:38AM

-->

@wlowsi9

At least my life isn't so pathetic I have yo force myself on people who don't want me around.

Internet anonymity doesn't hide your shame Willows.

Topic's author

#33

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

07.20.2020 06:01AM

-->

@ethang5

At least my life isn't so pathetic I have yo force myself on people who don't want me around.

Well I for one do not wish you to be around any of my threads but in you come every time I start a thread like a fly around shit. And you have the nerve to accuse others of "forcing themselves on people".

This is a free open forum. And this particular sub forum is to discuss and debate religion, it is not a religious forum. AND It is not a pulpit for you ONLY to force yourself and your religious beliefs & opinions onto others without any scrutiny and criticism.

If I was to ask you stay away and off my threads you wouldn't do so no matter how many times I asked you. The forum etiquette states that you should leave a thread where you are not wanted and have been asked politely to leave.

BUT YOU you have never given too much notice about moderation & forum rules have ? And neither have you taken too much notice of polite requests to leave a thread after you have repeatedly harnessed and stalked another member.

#34

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

07.20.2020 06:27AM

-->

@Stephen

Well I for one do not wish you to be around any of my threads...

Yet you @ me in every thread I make? I beat and shame you, so you hate me on your threads, but the board is not yours, and you aren't a mod. I break no CoC rules by posting to your threads, but Willows does.

...like a fly around shit.

An apt description of your tired, spam posts.

And you have the nerve to accuse others of "forcing themselves on people".

Why do you think the idiot has been banned more than 30 times? All you have to do is not post.... Sorry, not spam to me. No one is forcing you or forcing themselves on you.

It is not a pulpit for you ONLY...

It is ONLY for members. The moron Willows is not a member. I don't object to you, but you object to me, yet here you are defending a fake account CoC violator who has been banned over 30 times and saying you don't want the member. Would you like me to tell you your future?

If you come onto the board as a militant bully, you will get slapped. Deal with it.

Topic's author

#35

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

07.20.2020 06:46AM

-->

@ethang5

Why do you think the idiot has been banned more than 30 times?

You cannot be too far behind him on that score. I would personally ban you until you realised that one has to support and prove their claims on a discussion/ debating forum.

Your problem is that you tell far too many lies to keep up with yourself. You should have been a miner. Digging very large wide holes is your forte, that is to say , a thing at which you excel.

The moron Willows is not a member

It is not for you to push your own religious agenda either. It is not for you to spout PERSISTENT lies when on the back foot and have painted yourself into a corner. and this particular thread is not for YOU to discuss who should be or is a member.

You purposefully create arguments on other peoples threads to bury your own embarrassment AND LIES.

...like a fly around shit.
An apt description of your tired, spam posts.

Yet here you are AGAIN!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Please stay off my threads in future.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Topic's author

#36

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

07.20.2020 07:23AM

-->

@BrotherDThomas

Stephen,

I know that I am preaching to the choir, therefore, the TRUE meaning of a Christian is just a JEWISH follower of Jesus.

Hello Brother, hope you are well .

I have to agree as I have never heard of, or read of Jesus talking to a single Christian. Not a one.

JESUS STATED: “He answered, "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matthew 15:24). Since Jesus was "King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37), and He was ONLY interested in the people of his Jewish heritage, and not of other religions, then a Christian has to be a JEW! 2+2=4. When was the last time that you addressed the many pseudo-Christians within this forum, and asked them in what Jewish sect they belong too, since Jesus was sent only for the Jews?

Again, I fully agree with your own understanding . I repeatedly have to remind the faithful here that Jesus was a Jew. A king of the Jews and a Jewish Rabbi. What he wasn't was a Christian, King of the Christians or a Christian preacher and never once does he preach to Christians in the bible or anywhere else.

Even with all our amicable disagreements it is nice to see you here again Brother.

#37

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

07.20.2020 07:26AM

-->

@Stephen

The moron Willows is not a member

It is not for you to push your own religious agenda either.

Board membership has nothing to do with religion.

Please stay off my threads in future.

No. Hey snowflake, you can block me, but you cannot control where I post. It would be more reasonable to ask me not to post TO you, but then why not just block me?

The trash you post will get exposed and dismembered. Deal with it.

Sorry, the board is not Nazi Germany.

Topic's author

#38

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

07.20.2020 07:40AM

-->

@ethang5

It is not for you to push your own religious agenda either.
Board membership has nothing to do with religion.

So why are you calling someone out about "board membership" on my thread, you idiot.

Please stay off my threads in future.

Please stay off my threads in future.
No. Hey snowflake, you can block me,

Well we both know that blocking on this forum is a simple waste of time don't we. It wouldn't stop you responding to me on my own threads would it?

Sorry, the board is not Nazi Germany.

It was a polite request not a command, you idiot. Lord, you really are childish when stuck for intelligent answers and responses aren't you? This is what causes you to resort telling lies ALL OF THE TIME.

#39

Dr.Franklin

Debates: 32

Posts: 10,565

Dr.Franklin

07.20.2020 07:03PM

you cant predict the end times

#40

Debates: 22

Posts: 1,156

07.20.2020 07:17PM

-->

@BrotherDThomas

hello

welcome back, I just realized you got unbanned.

you may remember me, I'm avoiddeath from before. I'm not sure if you know.

Anyways, welcome back!

#41

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,140

07.20.2020 08:28PM

-->

@Crocodile

Ah yes, you were the one that agreed with me about the Satanic JW's in hiding on Memorial Day, yes? As if this fact isn't disgusting enough, their "2 Witness Rule" pertaining to when their members brutally rape innocent little children is despicable as well. Out of all the DIVISIONS of Christianity, subjectively speaking, the JW's are the most pathetic and ungodly of the bunch! They will certainly pay upon Judgment Day, praise Jesus' revenge!

#42

Debates: 22

Posts: 1,156

07.21.2020 12:55AM

-->

@BrotherDThomas

I think I was that guy, yes.

Topic's author

#43

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

07.21.2020 05:40AM

-->

@Dr.Franklin

you cant predict the end times

I know I can't. And I have never claimed that I could. But many Christians have made that claim,haven't they? Even though the bible states that : "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" - this doesn't and hasn't stopped these Christians making absolute fools of themselves . One has to wonder have they ever read the NT for themselves?

The "signs" according to Matthew are interesting though, I must say.

#44

Debates: 50

Posts: 2,879

07.21.2020 06:01AM

-->

@Stephen

One has to wonder have they ever read the NT for themselves?

I actually did some research on this for a debate.

Most Christians have not read it: https://lifewayresearch.com/2017/04/25/lifeway-research-americans-are-fond-of-the-bible-dont-actually-read-it/

Topic's author

#45

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious?t=1595311468105

07.21.2020 06:07AM

-->

@Barney

One has to wonder have they ever read the NT for themselves?
I actually did some research on this for a debate.

Most Christians have not read it: https://lifewayresearch.com/2017/04/25/lifeway-research-americans-are-fond-of-the-bible-dont-actually-read-it/

I am not surprised. I have come believe that "Christians" learn more about the bible from atheist than they do their own church leaders.

Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious.

The Pew Forum on Religious Religion and Public Life released a survey on religious knowledge today. Atheists and Agnostics scored higher on it than anyone else, closely followed by Jews and Mormons.

That's overall, but when you get into specific religions it does show a startling lack of basic knowledge by practitioners. From the report:

More than four-in-ten Catholics in the United States (45%) do not know that their church teaches that the bread and wine used in Communion do not merely symbolize but actually become the body and blood of Christ. About half of Protestants (53%) cannot correctly identify Martin Luther as the person whose writings and actions inspired the Protestant Reformation, which made their religion a separate branch of Christianity. Roughly four-in-ten Jews (43%) do not recognize that Maimonides, one of the most venerated rabbis in history, was Jewish.

Your debate looks interesting. I will give that a go when I have more time.

#46

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 11,217

zedvictor4

07.21.2020 06:11AM

-->

@Barney

What constitutes a Christian.....Splish Splash Splosh and a party a lot of the time.....Me included....Though I grew out of it.....Actually I never grew into it.....Which isn't surprising, as my Dad was a devout atheist and my Mum only regarded Church as a social necessity, and School and Church was only a marriage of convenience.

And the bible gathered dust upon the shelf, as most bibles do.

#47

Debates: 50

Posts: 2,879

07.21.2020 06:45AM

-->

@Stephen

Sadly for the non-religious, on average knowing more about doctrine than the devote, harms the utility of not believing.

Topic's author

#48

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

07.22.2020 07:38AM

Very good debate. I enjoyed it.

debate.

This back - hand made me grin too;

“possesses attributes like God”
"He had power over diseases, demonic spirits, and nature.” This is actually true, but fails to prove the conclusion intended. Antibiotics cure more diseases than Jesus ever did, yet the church has [not] replaced statues of Jesus with statues of pill bottles. Plus this again opposes God who inflicts diseases, as was seen with Job and the innocent Egyptians. >>>>My edit [not ]

I could make a whole thread from that.

#49

Deb-8-a-bull

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,949

Deb-8-a-bull

07.23.2020 01:03AM

I like the idea of telling a 5, 6, 10 or a 11 year old girl that the Jesus is coming soon to turn all non belivers into ash.

Like ummm , being burnt alive, to your death.

They'd love that shlt right.?

Get EVERYONEEEEEEEEEEEE right on the frigging edge of their seats.

No but , Imagine saying/predicting the second coming will occur in 3775 years time.

#50

Debates: 50

Posts: 2,879

07.26.2020 05:41AM

-->

@Stephen

It was a fun debate. I do wish my opponent was willing to engage with the evidence, with that he probably would have won; whereas asserted denials against the evidence, really don't hold up.

Also, I wish South Park had perfect clips for more of my debates. I like being able to know the audience will be entertained by my evidence.

Topic's author

#51

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

07.26.2020 08:37AM

I do wish my opponent was willing to engage with the evidence,

Me too. Have you seen this for unsubstantiated claims. >> #55

whereas asserted denials against the evidence, really don't hold up.

Indeed as the thread mentioned above #53 & #60

While on one hand its claimed Christian numbers are on the increase world wide. The same claimant then goes about wiping over 23 million Christians from the Christian fold himself claiming JW's and Mormons are not Christian.. And then denies that he did so.

11 days later

#52

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,140

08.06.2020 07:36PM

-->

@Stephen

Stephen,

As a TRUE Christian, the only one within DEBATEART, because I follow ALL, and I repeat, ALL of the JUDEO-Christian Bible as intended by Jesus, then when reading the Bible and the historicity outside of the Bible, then there has to be a "First Coming" before there can be a "Second Coming!" Therefore, I have accepted that Jesus did not exist, but still call myself a TRUE Christian in the myth because it is comforting to do so in this current worldly situation.

Jesus existed in the same vein as the god Zeus, which was the king of all gods, because his writings said so, and in the same manner that Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, murdered and drowned innocent zygotes, fetus' and babies in His Great Flood because He was upset with them as being ungodly. Unfortunately, Jesus did so as He watched the innocent babies take their last gasp of air as their mothers watched them in horror go down for the last time to a numbing and painful drowning death. (Hebrews 4:13). And, yet we are supposed to preach that Jesus is ever loving and forgiving, whereas this is not totally true as shown.

Nonetheless, the TRUE Christian has to believe in a Jesus even though His presence is 100% embarrassing and totally non-existent outside of the JUDEO-Christian Bible. This is partially apropos because we have spent so much valuable time in believing in the Jesus character, even though our Bible shows Him to be a brutal serial killer! If people can believe in a flat earth, the cover-19 virus is just a hoax, flying saucers, etc., then we can believe in the myth of Jesus as well, praise!

#53

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,341

08.09.2020 07:47AM

-->

@Stephen

I wonder if you will ever get it right.

What you say here is old news. Boring news. People have asked the question before and moved on.

And you are correct - there is no particular need for me to post here - I too could just move on.

Yet, I do find it necessary to make some notes. Firstly, it is true that throughout the history of the church, there have been some who made predictions about the second coming of Jesus - and yes, they have all been wrong. As others have pointed out -the Bible itself states that no one knows the hour or the day, not even the Son - when he was on earth. So it stands to reason that everyone who makes such a prediction is going to be wrong - or if they are right - it was a fluke.

Secondly, there are many people who want to know when Jesus will return, and are looking for what they think are signs that will reveal his near coming. I have heard all sorts of things about this current pandemic being - a sign that Jesus is returning. Similar things occurred in the year 2000 - and in the year 1988. It is not a surprise that people do this - many people want to escape from the world we live in. And interestingly enough it is not just some parts of the church which focus on how bad the world is - and talk about its impending doom - it is apparent that many people in the secular and atheistic world want to escape as well. Think of the environmental movement - it is always talking about how the world is getting worse and worse - they like to put dates on the end of the world as well. Or think about those worried about world peace or world war - gee even the UN puts up a clock - which tells us we just a moment away from midnight. The communists - are always talking about setting up a situation for bringing in their economic and political society.

Thirdly, there are many parts of the church who do not think we are in the end of the world - and in fact are still in the early days of the church. They take the view that while some call today a post church society - they see it as a pre church society. That the church is still like a petulant teenager - not yet ready to be received by the bridegroom.

Fourthly, I noticed you don't mind using references from people who are not Christian as the bible describes Christian - even if society today does in some form or the other. I would suggest that even the World Council of Churches - do not include either the Mormons or the JWs as part of the Christian Church. And the World Council of Churches - has a very broad definition of Christian, much broader than the Bible. I am quite content to see each of these two groups disassociated from the church and Christianity as the Bible teaches. The reason I raise this is because there are enough people in the traditional church who have picked dates and got it wrong without bringing in cults and others persons to make a point. In fact - by quoting JWs and Mormons and those outside the church - you actually confirm to people who disagree with you - that you are speaking nonsense.

If you want to be persuasive - you need to know your audience. If your point is simply to preach to the converted - then keep doing what you are doing. When you refer to people outside of the church and then try and argue that they really belong inside the church - you lose anyone who might have thought there was something to what you were saying.

As for the topic itself - I make the same arguments on almost a daily basis - against the main groups which teach this - those from the premill and dispensational and cult groups. They are all based theologically in a particular eschatological framework where they almost feel a necessity to pick dates - thankfully, however, many people are moving away from these positions as they start to read the bible. The bible clearly has a different point of view - but such groups know that these sorts of things - are attractive to people - who want secret information - that the rest of society does not have.

Join the club I say -

Topic's author

#54

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

08.09.2020 09:35AM

-->

@Tradesecret

I too could just move on.

Then do and stop re-posting your usual "old and boring" word salad. .

there is no particular need for me to post here

I agree. But post you do.

#55

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,341

08.10.2020 03:12AM

-->

@Stephen

Fair points.

I wont stop posting though - since I am not the only posting old and boring salads.

In any event, what I had to say was helpful - even if you found it boring.

Topic's author

#56

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

08.10.2020 05:54AM

-->

@Tradesecret

what I had to say was helpful

To whom?

the Bible itself states that no one knows the hour or the day

It does, yet it hasn't stopped the above mentioned Christians making predictions that they should know that no one knows. Which can only mean that they too haven't read their own scriptures, including Sextus Julius Africanus who I have mentioned was a Christian historian as was Irenaeus who was brought up in a Christian. I also mentioned St Beatus of Liébana he was a christian , theologian and geographer. Hippolytus of Rome was one of the most important second-third century Christian theologians.

Not to mention people such as Pope Sylvester II predicted Jan 1000, John Wesley predicted 1836, Catholic Apostolic Church predicted 1901 and the very famous Jehovah's Witnesses who predicted 1914. ALL ARE Christians . They too must have , just like , failed to read and understand the bible too.

Looking for what they think are signs that will reveal his near coming.

Well didn't Jesus make it clear what those signs were in Mathew?

there are many parts of the church who do not think we are in the end of the world

I don't think Jesus ever spoke about "the end of the world" but he certainly spoke of the "end of the age. The bible is riddled with astronomy and astrology. In fact the whole bible story is wrapped in both. The Jesus story starts with a reference to the sky and it continues right up until the crucifixion.

“Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” Mat 2:1

And isn't there some kind of solar eclipse at the end?

#57

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,341

08.10.2020 06:59AM

-->

@Stephen

what I had to say was helpful
To whom?

I guess to anyone who finds it helpful. The only one who seems to have an issue so far is you. I am free to assume that everyone else agrees it is helpful - until they say otherwise. In any event, I think it is right to provide a balanced perspective rather than the pessimistic and biased opinions generally provided.

the Bible itself states that no one knows the hour or the day

It does, yet it hasn't stopped the above mentioned Christians making predictions that they should know that no one knows. Which can only mean that they too haven't read their own scriptures, including Sextus Julius Africanus who I have mentioned was a Christian historian as was Irenaeus who was brought up in a Christian. I also mentioned St Beatus of Liébana he was a christian , theologian and geographer. Hippolytus of Rome was one of the most important second-third century Christian theologians.

Not to mention people such as Pope Sylvester II predicted Jan 1000, John Wesley predicted 1836, Catholic Apostolic Church predicted 1901 and the very famous Jehovah's Witnesses who predicted 1914. ALL ARE Christians . They too must have , just like , failed to read and understand the bible too.

As I said above there have been many Christians who think they know better than what the bible says. And many who are not Christians who do the same thing. I put you in that category. My point was simple. There is no need to add non-christians to the mix because how non-christians view the bible adds nothing to the picture. No one really cares what a non-christian position of the bible is. Also I wanted to point out that the JWs are not Christians. It does not matter how many times you say otherwise or how many times they say are - they are not. The church does not recognise the JW as anything more than a cult. Even the WCC - World Council of Churches - who define christian very broadly - and much more than I would - do not consider the JWs to be a Christian organisation. Hence - if it rejects the JW as a christian church - and since every other Christian church rejects the JW as a christian church, why do you think that it is? And why would you include it in the mix?

Personally, there are no Christians I know from any denomination that care what the JWs think - save and except to use their words and doctrines against them.

If your point is to say that many Christians throughout history have got it wrong - and simply used Christian persons to confirm this - then I would have heartily agreed with you. Yet you chose to add non-Christians into the mix. This simply reveals that you have not done your research diligently or thoroughly. It does not help your case - it only makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about - which clearly you don't

Looking for what they think are signs that will reveal his near coming.

Well didn't Jesus make it clear what those signs were in Mathew?

On the contrary Jesus made it very clear - and the Christians at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 used his words in order to save their lives. Josephus provides quite clear evidence of this in his book.

there are many parts of the church who do not think we are in the end of the world

I don't think Jesus ever spoke about "the end of the world" but he certainly spoke of the "end of the age. The bible is riddled with astronomy and astrology. In fact the whole bible story is wrapped in both. The Jesus story starts with a reference to the sky and it continues right up until the crucifixion.

“Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” Mat 2:1
And isn't there some kind of solar eclipse at the end?

The end of the "ages" - in the greek sometimes used is aeons and others times kosmos. Both are used interchangeably and can refer to world and age.

I take the view that Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are all in the main predicting the end of the age - primarily referring to the end of the covenant age of Israel and when the destruction of Jerusalem confirms what Jesus did on the cross. And that is removing the external need for a temple - which Jesus did for the internal need for the temple at the cross - and the reason why the curtain was torn into two. This is also the historical position of the church.

I agree that the bible does contain much astronomy - from the beginning really where the lights in the sky are said to be for signs. I don't think astronomy is to be mixed up with astrology. Both are quite different things - even if both make use of the same objects - the stars and planets in the sky as reference points. Astrology is an entirely different set of skills or trickery or whatever. The kings who saw Jesus' star were astronomers - not astrologers and probably were relying upon Daniel - in their wisdom. After all Daniel was one of the chief magicians in Babylon when he was there and his works would have been received and studied - along with the works of Ezekiel and others.

In any event - looking for signs is a somewhat human activity. We like to look up at the star and hope they can predict our future.

Jesus referred to the sign of the son of man in heaven. I take it that this refers to Pentecost - the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It was Jesus' first sign of sitting on the throne in heaven. It therefore is the sign of the son of man ascended in heaven. I don't think it is referring to a star - but to the fact that now Jesus is reigning.

Topic's author

#58

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

08.16.2020 06:46AM

-->

@Tradesecret

Looking for what they think are signs that will reveal his near coming.

Well didn't Jesus make it clear what those signs were in Mathew?
On the contrary Jesus made it very clear - and the Christians at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 used his words in order to save their lives. Josephus provides quite clear evidence of this in his book.

You really are full of crap aren't you. They weren't "Chrsitians" at the fall of Jerusalem or the temple. It was a Jewish rebellion among themselves and against the Romans.

It is one thing that you attempt to rewrite the biblical scriptures to suit your own narrative but now you are attempting to rewrite those works of Joseph son of Matthias, better known as Flavius Josephus a JEWISH Pharisee priest and and JEWISH general, who himself did battle with the Romans.

You are not even ashamed are you?

#59

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,341

08.16.2020 09:59AM

-->

@Stephen

Stephen,

I have not rewritten history. I was referring to information I had been taught - and so I have gone back to find my sources. I note a couple of things.

It was not Josephus who indicated what I mentioned. I was speaking from memory and I was wrong. However, I knew there was a connection to Josephus although it was only his translator, William Whiston, note b in Josephus War of the Jews , 2:19:6, p. 631-2.

Secondly, I have added a link from Wikapedia - for whatever it is worth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Pella, which notes that I am not making it up or attempting to lie. This link however expresses that there is significant debate about its validity. It does however reveal that I am NOT trying to rewrite history - but was rather using information I had been provided from a couple of different sources. It is also true that Eusebius referred to it in his works: “The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella.” Ecclesiastical History, tr. C. F. Crusè, 3d ed., in Greek Ecclesiastical Historians, 6 vols. (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1842), p. 110 (3:5).

Also the following from the early years of the church made similar claims.

Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis (315 – 403 AD)

“The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged” (Panarion 29:7:7-8).
“Their sect began after the capture of Jerusalem. For when all those who believed in Christ settled at that time for the most part in Peraea, in a city called Pella belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the gospel, which is next to Batanaea and the land of Bashan, then they moved there and stayed” (Panarion 30:2:7).
Remigius, Bishop of Reims (437 – 533 AD)

[1] “[F]or on the approach of the Roman army, all the Christians in the province, warned, as ecclesiastical history tells us, miraculously from heaven, withdrew, and passing the Jordan, took refuge in the city of Pella; and under the protection of that King Agrippa, of whom we read in the Acts of the Apostles, they continued some time; but Agrippa himself, with the Jews whom he governed, was subjected to the dominion of the Romans” [Thomas Aquinas (1841). Catena Aurea: Commentary on the Four Gospels; Collected out of the Works of the Fathers: St. Matthew. (J. H. Newman, Ed.) (Vol. 1, p. 799-816)].

I don't care that you don't believe it is true about the Christians fleeing to Pella from Jerusalem. What I do care about is that you continue to spout lies that I am making stuff and changing history. These people are not me. This tradition has been around for many years before I was born.

Topic's author

#60

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311