The worldview of an Atheist

Author: Tradesecret ,

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  • secularmerlin
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    --> @SkepticalOne
    As ways of saying "I don't know" go saying some god(s) did it is particularly unsatisfying to me since it would seem to like an attempt to close down further investigation of the matter.
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @secularmerlin
    There were atheists long before there was any human understanding of or scientific consensus on the matter of evolution. That invalidates your theory.

    Saying god made all the stuff doesn't tell us how or why there is stuff so your hypothesis offers no useful answers.
    Nonsense. 

    The ToE as Darwin put it - might be relatively new - but the ToE had many precursors to it. Some very famous atheists in the past held to some variety of it. 

    In any event, it is hardly plausible that an atheist in the past  is going to hold to the notion that God does not exist and then say that humanity originated and grew from God. Just pure nonsense. Even you must see the implausibility of such a view. 

    The ancient atheists do not need to have known the Big Bang Theory or the ascent of humanity in Darwin's point of view to be evolutionists. The fact is they denied God and by implication were evolutionists. 
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @secularmerlin

    As ways of saying "I don't know" go saying some god(s) did it is particularly unsatisfying to me since it would seem to like an attempt to close down further investigation of the matter.
    I don't hold to the God of the Gaps theory. That theory is a typical one produced by athiests and skeptics to discredit Religious people. It however is a strawman argument. And everyone seems to know it but the skeptics. 

    But neither do I know everything. Nor do evolutionists. For me to say - that if we find out one day - great - but I am not going to turn around and say it had nothing to do with God - just to satisfy the quirky position of an atheist.  It would be dishonest of me to do that.  Scientists - do not know the answer to most things and probably never will. This is not a reason to dismiss the things they think they know - they are happy to leave that for the future. I say the same thing with God - I am happy to leave it in his hands. I don't have to know everything right now. 


  • Tradesecret
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    --> @zedvictor4
     The Christian position does not beg the question of where does God come from. In fact that thought reveals only that you do not know nor understand the Christian Position. 


  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    What do you mean when you say evolutionist? If it only means one who believes the theory of evolution is sound then there could by definition be no evolutionists before the theory was proposed. 
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Perhaps there were no atheists before the idea of evolution in principle existed? 


    The fact is today - atheists as we understand them today are not the same as atheists in the ancient past.  

    Christians for instance were thrown to the lions for being atheists. Not believing in the Roman gods. 


    Today - it is a truism that all atheists are also evolutionists. 

    But not all evolutionists are atheists. 

    Similarly, not all theists are creationists - yet it is a religious doctrine. 

    Atheists wants to somehow give the impression that they are neutral in these things. Yet, it is not true. It is a lie to say they are neutral. 

    Atheists have a worldview - they deny it - for all sorts of reasons - but evolution is but one of their doctrines - a doctrine by necessity. It is impossible to be an atheist and not hold to the theory of evolution.  
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    (IF) the classic greek skeptics were atheists before the theory of evolution was discovered (THEN) it is possible to be an atheist with no corresponding belief in evolution.

    If you see a problem with my logic please point out the specific flaw in the structure of my argument or offer a (demonstrable or logically necessary) counterfactual. 

    You just keep repeating your first argument which I have already refuted rather than moving forward or explaining your case.
  • Mopac
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    As Godi s The Ultimate Reality, atheism is the same as nihilism.

    What is the atheistic doctrine? There is no absolute truth. All truth is relative. Reality is what you can get away with. 

    That sums it up.




  • Tradesecret
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    --> @secularmerlin
    IF) the classic greek skeptics were atheists before the theory of evolution was discovered (THEN) it is possible to be an atheist with no corresponding belief in evolution.

    If you see a problem with my logic please point out the specific flaw in the structure of my argument or offer a (demonstrable or logically necessary) counterfactual. 

    You just keep repeating your first argument which I have already refuted rather than moving forward or explaining your case.

    just as you pass by my arguments. 

    The ancient greeks - skeptics did believe in a form of evolution. Not articulated as such like Darwin's was - but certainly a form of it.  You have yet to actually provide any atheist that does not believe in a form of evolution. Yes, I am talking about evolution per se - not even the scientific version as you understand it. You in fact took it down that road in https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4933/post-links/209445. Prior to that time - evolution was being used by me generally as an idea. In fact I actually distanced what I was talking about from the so called ToE because I know as you do that evolutionists existed prior to its articulated doctrine by Darwin. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4933/post-links/209736

    All atheists are evolutionists. IT is a doctrine by implication that flows from their theology. It is one among many. 

  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    The ancient greeks - skeptics did believe in a form of evolution. Not articulated as such like Darwin's was - but certainly a form of it. 
    This is a claim. Claims must be substantiated. If you only baldly assert that this is the case then I will have no choice but to dismiss your argument. Perhaps you would like to start by explaining exactly what form of evolution exactly you think they believed in. Clearly defined terms are important in intelligent discussion. 
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @secularmerlin
    You know as well as I do that although Darwin articulated the doctrine of Evolution, that many people believed in a form of it over the years. I could go to the internet and find examples of this as well as you can. But what is the point of that?  I am sure you won't deny it is the fact or are you prepared to say that evolution is a modern doctrine that has arisen because of a new type of prophet? This after all is not a topic on evolution. It is on atheism and worldview. 

    Now you want me to define terms clearly. Whatever for? Do you know what evolution is? OF course you do. Perhaps you want to make sure I understand it the same way as you do? How do you know I don't? You often throw out your definition of God or understanding of God - despite the fact that it is not the same as mine.  Or you (speaking generally) request people to define their God - so that you (generally) can pick it to pieces.  

    This topic is about the worldview of atheists.  Atheists pretend they don't have a worldview. In fact they bury their heads into the sand and say things like "we don't have a faith - our position is that we are a "non-faith". It is not that we don't believe in God, we can see no evidence for any god. This is the only thing that might be said to unite us - otherwise we are all individuals with our own views about everything else.  In fact our non-belief in god is only incidental to who we are as humans. We are humans first, we start there, and then we look at the evidence about us in response to the life we live. We might never ever entertain the question of God because it might never be raised with us. Hence to suggest that it is somehow relevant to the way I think is nonsense - an absurdity. 

    I on the other hand think that type of thinking is an absurdity and profoundly ignorant.  To live in a world that is dominated by religions and ideas about God or gods is a truism. To pretend that this can be simply deleted is nonsense.  Everyone in every culture - even the Russian Communist and Chinese Communist ones, unless history is destroyed completely, the notion of god or gods will arise. 

    I think the problem for the atheist is that if their position is labeled a worldview - then that implicitly means they too a religion.  And this of course is exactly the reason they took the view secular and changed its meaning to mean "non-religious".   A term that by definition excludes religion. After all if they can exclude religion - then they cannot be labeled one.  It is fudging the truth though.  It is bringing the cart before the horse. It is hiding one's head in the sand. 

    Every atheist is an evolutionist. Despite requesting examples otherwise - you keep dodging this one. Please find me an example of an atheist who is not an evolutionist. 

    Not every theist is an evolutionist. Many are. Not every theist is a creationist. Yet creationism is still a doctrine that unites many theists- although it is not more than a generalization. Applying that to atheists - it might be the case that some atheists deny evolution, but even this would not be enough to deny that evolution is a doctrine of atheistic worldview.  

    There is a commonality amongst atheists in the West. There is a commonality amongst atheists in the East.  Both have their worldviews.  Marxist / Lennonism is a communist worldview - but not just a communist worldview  but an Atheistic communistic worldview.  Secular Humanism is a Western Atheistic Worldview. Buddhism is an Atheistic Spiritual worldview.  

    But one thing common to all of these worldviews is evolution. What I would like to explore is other commonalities. 



  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I gave at least one example and I know others have too. If your claim is that the classic Greek skeptics believed in any firm of evolution you need to 

    A: explain what form exactly this belief took

    And

    B: somehow demonstrate that they believed in it.

    As far as I know they simply could not have. I would be happy to look into any link you want to send me. 

    And by the way this
    it might be the case that some atheists deny evolution, but even this would not be enough to deny that evolution is a doctrine of atheistic worldview.  
    Is nonsense. Self contradictory nonsense.

  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I think the problem for the atheist is that if their position is labeled a worldview - then that implicitly means they too a religion. 
    This is a little silly too. Their are religious atheists. Does an atheist bhudist have two religions? No of course not.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Tradesecret
    You know as well as I do that although Darwin articulated the doctrine of Evolution,
    EVOLUTION =/= DOCTRINE
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I am sure you won't deny it is the fact or are you prepared to say that evolution is a modern doctrine that has arisen because of a new type of prophet?
    SCIENTIST =/= PROPHET
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Despite arguments to the contrary - Atheists believe in doctrines and dogmas.  
    Citation please.

    An atheist chooses not to believe in God despite the evidence to the contrary. 
    OLD BOOK =/= COMPELLING EVIDENCE

    Yet, an atheist MUST believe in the doctrine of EVOLUTION.  There is no contrary doctrine. 
    There are any number of atheists who believe in the plausibility of an intelligent-designer hypothesis, or simply have no opinion on the matter (not everyone's allergic to the words "I don't know" or "epistemological limits").

    So, not only is there a non-belief in a deity - 
    Do you have a non-belief in BRAHMAN?  Well then, you also have a non-belief in a deity.

    but there is also an affirmation of a positive doctrine - evolution. 
    This assertion is provably false.

    What other doctrines exist - for the atheist? 
    Atheism is a description, not a doctrine.

    Let us explore. 
    I'm looking forward to hearing your ideas.
  • Theweakeredge
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    The entire premise is false, the only thing atheism speaks on, is one's belief of a god(s): 

    Merriam Webster defines Atheism as such:

    "a: a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
    b: a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods"

    In other words, by definition, Atheism can not be a world view. The same way not believing in Santa Claus is not a world view, or not being apart of boy/girl scouts isn't a community. 
  • Mopac
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    In relation to orthodoxy in which God is ultimate reality, atheism would be nihilism. Nihilism is the doctrine of negation. 




    The defining characteristic is the rejection of ultimate reality or absolute truth. It is to say there are only relative truths.




    Of course, without absolute truth, there can not be relative truths.




    It is silly to say this is not a worldview.