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@HistoryBuff
they want to give every american the opportunity to chase the american dream... oh god, the horror. Don't they know that poor people are immoral and deserve to stay in poverty?
please tell me you are being ironic.
Equity is communism.
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66
If communism is equity...I wish.
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@Greyparrot
Kamala reminds us all what the radical left wants for America.
This looks like a classic "equal opportunity" bit to me. She says that we need some change for people to naturally "end up at the same place" but you can watch both characters working hard to get from the bottom to their goal on top of the mountain. Before it was unfair but now they've received the same reward after climbing the same way.
Its the sort of image people would lay out for school busing, vouchers, etc...
I don't understand why everyone is acting like they want to be cutting a mountain down, when really they're just trying to fill in the pit...like Leslie Knope
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@Greyparrot
Opportunities give those people born fucked up a chance and also allows people that want to choose to be fucked up to choose that freely without some communist Karen telling him he can't do that.
ok. but right wing economics removes those opportunities as companies reduce or freeze wages and crush the middle class, as they have been for decades.
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@HistoryBuff
that seems like some really stupid hair splitting.
Not really. I'm saying that they aren't just dumb, but that they make dumb decisions. They can learn better and make non-dumb decisions. If they are better educated on how to run a budget and invest, they are capable of making good decisions that will raise their position.
i can't seem to access the stats. it wants me to create an account. but again, what do they classify as a "luxury shoe"? or "luxury clothes".
Well they use the word "premium" as well, which generally refers to "name brands". Luxury food would probably be buying Domino brand sugar instead of Great Value brand sugar.
Buying Jordan's would be a premium brand, since you pay extra for the brand recognition.
ok, but again, you aren't talking about an improvement to their finances, IE wealth trickling down. You are talking about more consumer products for them to buy despite their wages being stagnant and living costs rising.
I partially agree. Their lives are improved when they can purchase appliances for much less than they could 30 years ago. They might not have more free income, but they can achieve a higher quality of life with the same amount of money than they used to.
because in republican states they simply drive off homeless people. so they naturally move to states where they won't be harassed or even attacked (as much).
How are homeless people able to move 3 states over to get to blue states? Maybe there are so many homeless people there because your building codes and taxes made housing very expensive?
lol, even when trying to make fun of me you can't keep your utter contempt of poor people out of your answer.
There is no contempt there unless it is their fault that they are poor.
You demonize rich people and then put poor people on a pedestal, acting like against their best efforts, evil rich people are keeping them down. Like it is not their fault they have 5 kids out of wedlock and never try to go rise above their fry cook job to become a manager.
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@bmdrocks21
Not really. I'm saying that they aren't just dumb, but that they make dumb decisions. They can learn better and make non-dumb decisions. If they are better educated on how to run a budget and invest, they are capable of making good decisions that will raise their position.
so working for wages that are barely sufficient to keep them alive, they are magically going to get a high paying job and become wealthy? Even you can't believe that fairy tale.
i can't seem to access the stats. it wants me to create an account. but again, what do they classify as a "luxury shoe"? or "luxury clothes".Well they use the word "premium" as well, which generally refers to "name brands". Luxury food would probably be buying Domino brand sugar instead of Great Value brand sugar.
So you admit you have no idea how they define "luxury". Therefore the stats are pretty much worthless.
I partially agree. Their lives are improved when they can purchase appliances for much less than they could 30 years ago. They might not have more free income, but they can achieve a higher quality of life with the same amount of money than they used to.
ok, but since their wages are stagnant as the cost of living rises (food, housing etc) their buying power has diminished. Therefore no, their standard of living falls.
because in republican states they simply drive off homeless people. so they naturally move to states where they won't be harassed or even attacked (as much).How are homeless people able to move 3 states over to get to blue states? Maybe there are so many homeless people there because your building codes and taxes made housing very expensive?
oh, we are just making stuff up and guessing are we? maybe they are homeless because they lost their job and they can't afford the thousands upon thousands it takes to get an education.
lol, even when trying to make fun of me you can't keep your utter contempt of poor people out of your answer.There is no contempt there unless it is their fault that they are poor.
which you just assume that it is with no reason. The wages of workers have not risen (when calculated for inflation) in decades. But costs of living have risen alot. but sure, it's their fault that more and more people are being pushed out of the middle class.
You demonize rich people and then put poor people on a pedestal, acting like against their best efforts, evil rich people are keeping them down.
I act like "rich people" aren't increasing wages even in periods of record corporate profits. that is an absolute fact.
Like it is not their fault they have 5 kids out of wedlock and never try to go rise above their fry cook job to become a manager.
there's that generalization and contempt again. mangers, by their nature are limited in number. You cannot have every employee become a manager. So even if every person works their absolute hardest, most of them will not succeed. So you acting like it is their fault that success is not possible says alot about you.
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@HistoryBuff
so working for wages that are barely sufficient to keep them alive, they are magically going to get a high paying job and become wealthy? Even you can't believe that fairy tale.
No, but following the 3 Brookings rules regarding lifestyle choices will.
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@HistoryBuff
so working for wages that are barely sufficient to keep them alive, they are magically going to get a high paying job and become wealthy? Even you can't believe that fairy tale.
No, sorry, in right-wing economics, we don't believe in "magic".
I think that not spending a considerable amount of your income on premium items and instead saving that money and investing in yourself will get you to be wealthy. Imagine if they saved that money to pay for night classes instead of buying a new pair of basketball shoes.
Imagine if they waited until they were economically stable to have children. These VERY simple ideas? Not magic, but would make a huge difference.
oh, we are just making stuff up and guessing are we? maybe they are homeless because they lost their job and they can't afford the thousands upon thousands it takes to get an education.
My guess was much better than: I guess the people with no money or car or food just moved three states over to get to a blue state.
The cost of living in blue states is much higher. If you cannot pay for the high housing costs, of course you're going to be homeless. Let's see if you can recognize that basic fact real quick.
I act like "rich people" aren't increasing wages even in periods of record corporate profits. that is an absolute fact.
Maybe stop importing a million third-worlders a year? Maybe, just maybe, increasing the supply of something decreases its price......
But I'm sure that economic principle will once again go over your head.
there's that generalization and contempt again. mangers, by their nature are limited in number. You cannot have every employee become a manager. So even if every person works their absolute hardest, most of them will not succeed. So you acting like it is their fault that success is not possible says alot about you.
There is the possibility of going to other jobs, possibility of becoming a manager, move to a place with jobs, and then save money to take night courses. There are dozens of things you can do. Your apparent choice is for them to whine for more money than their job merits while also not holding people accountable for their reckless life decisions like dropping out of high school then having 6 kids.
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@bmdrocks21
No, sorry, in right-wing economics, we don't believe in "magic".
it is a core principle of right-wing economics. If you funnel all the money to the rich, it will somehow, some day, trickle down to other people. That is some magical thinking.
I think that not spending a considerable amount of your income on premium items and instead saving that money and investing in yourself will get you to be wealthy. Imagine if they saved that money to pay for night classes instead of buying a new pair of basketball shoes.
since that data included food as a "premium item", i have no faith in that info. But again, there are a limited number of jobs. You keep pretending like if every american went to college, they would all be CEOs making millions. That is a fantasy. There are a limited number of high paying jobs. Yes, getting more education will help you fight to get them. but if I get that job, someone else doesn't. no matter how hard everyone works the majority of the country is going to struggle financially. It is how the system is designed.
The cost of living in blue states is much higher. If you cannot pay for the high housing costs, of course you're going to be homeless. Let's see if you can recognize that basic fact real quick.
that's because blue states are more urbanized and have higher wages than red states.
Maybe stop importing a million third-worlders a year? Maybe, just maybe, increasing the supply of something decreases its price......
that's a great plan if you want america to decline. The US needs immigrants or it's population will start to decline. You are right, if america stopped immigration the cost of labor would rise. but this would also cause a drop in the size of america's workforce and cause the economy to decline.
There is the possibility of going to other jobs, possibility of becoming a manager, move to a place with jobs, and then save money to take night courses. There are dozens of things you can do.
you keep ignoring my argument. If everyone is a manager, then they aren't managing anyone. There is a limit to the number of high paying jobs. Even if every single american was highly educated, half (if not more) would struggle financially. Education helps you fight over the limited number of good jobs, but no matter how hard the general population fights, half the country will struggle to make ends meet.
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@HistoryBuff
it will somehow, some day, trickle down to other people.
just the people that follow the 3 Brookings rules. The other people have chosen poorly.
Do you believe in a society that rewards people for making decisions that hurt society and themselves?
7 days later
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@HistoryBuff
it is a core principle of right-wing economics. If you funnel all the money to the rich, it will somehow, some day, trickle down to other people. That is some magical thinking.
I thought trickle-down economics was more of a strawman, like companies having more money means they would pay employees more. I don't think that is correct.
However, if you can analyze the wealth created from giving extra money via tax breaks or subsidies to a company for R&D and find that whatever would be created would increase the quality of life for a lot of people, then you definitely should do it.
Creating new good products and services is supply-side economics, which is "right-wing". Again, you can't simply go one side or the other. You still need a strong consumer base.
since that data included food as a "premium item", i have no faith in that info. But again, there are a limited number of jobs. You keep pretending like if every american went to college, they would all be CEOs making millions. That is a fantasy. There are a limited number of high paying jobs. Yes, getting more education will help you fight to get them. but if I get that job, someone else doesn't. no matter how hard everyone works the majority of the country is going to struggle financially. It is how the system is designed.
And economies will adapt. People get laid off or fired, others take their place, new high-paying jobs are created. Not everybody can be a winner, but there are always hundreds of things you can do to improve your position. Most people just aren't willing to put in the effort, poor or rich, because moving is an inconvenience or working and doing classes at the same time is hard.
There is no system, not your little "democratic" socialist paradise nor anarcho-communist one where everybody will be a winner. Capitalism is a far superior system for wealth creation as long as it promotes competition, which is pro-consumer.
that's because blue states are more urbanized and have higher wages than red states.
And the higher taxes and regulations like rent control that result in housing shortages contribute to the much higher cost of living which offsets those "higher wages"
that's a great plan if you want america to decline. The US needs immigrants or it's population will start to decline. You are right, if america stopped immigration the cost of labor would rise. but this would also cause a drop in the size of america's workforce and cause the economy to decline.
Well, I would support more financial programs to allow families to have children younger so they will likely have more kids over their lifetime. Currently, they are waiting too long for financial stability and they have highly reduced fertility by then. Increasing your population via immigration is a disaster-immigrants are willing to accept much lower wages for jobs than domestic-born people, which depresses wages then there is the reduced social cohesion, etc. Increase birthrates domestically and do so in a manner that would allow stable growth of the workforce. That way you don't kill your economy nor depress wages with "low standards" workers. Solves like 3-5 problems at once.
you keep ignoring my argument. If everyone is a manager, then they aren't managing anyone. There is a limit to the number of high paying jobs. Even if every single american was highly educated, half (if not more) would struggle financially. Education helps you fight over the limited number of good jobs, but no matter how hard the general population fights, half the country will struggle to make ends meet.
Well it is hard to know what the landscape would look like if people were making smarter life decisions. If more people went to trade school, as the supply of these workers is very low, and people moved cities to look for jobs instead of staying in dying cities, then we can move from there.
It is the role of the government to take measures to increase the availability of high-paying jobs through making a good economic environment: that means efficient regulations and not taxing the crap out of corporations and small businesses. It means investing in infrastructure and occasionally in people for education, as long as it is an investment on the part of the government and only then.
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@HistoryBuff
it is a core principle of right-wing economics. If you funnel all the money to the rich, it will somehow, some day, trickle down to other people. That is some magical thinking.
This is one of the few comments you've made that I agree with. The wealthy tend to horde the wealth for themselves, put it in safe interest-generating assets, and thus don't create anything of real value.
This is why rulers of the past forgave all debt immediately upon entering power. It helped the poor not accumulate a ridiculous amount of debt, prevented the rich from becoming too rich, and incentivised properly investing in an economy instead of engaging in usury.
since that data included food as a "premium item", i have no faith in that info. But again, there are a limited number of jobs. You keep pretending like if every american went to college, they would all be CEOs making millions. That is a fantasy. There are a limited number of high paying jobs. Yes, getting more education will help you fight to get them. but if I get that job, someone else doesn't. no matter how hard everyone works the majority of the country is going to struggle financially. It is how the system is designed.
It depends on the type of food being purchased. Some food should definitely be classified as luxury, such as truffles or exotic cheeses. For the report, it seems that McDonalds is considered a luxury, which isn't too unreasonable considering people shouldn't be living on that.
The majority of the country struggles because it is steeped in debt. If I recall a paper correctly, if you have 10$ American dollars, you are richer than 75% of Americans. Some of the debt is good, such as a loan for a cheap car to be able to work. Some of it is bad and self-inflicted, such as credit card debt to buy luxury items. Given the statistics presented by bmd, it appears that a lot of Americans accrue bad debt through unintelligent purchases.
Whilst I am certainly sympathetic to outrageous students loans debt, the punishment for reckless, debt-driven, luxury item spending should be a poor financial situation.
that's a great plan if you want america to decline. The US needs immigrants or it's population will start to decline. You are right, if america stopped immigration the cost of labor would rise. but this would also cause a drop in the size of america's workforce and cause the economy to decline.
Whatever economic band aid immigrants provide for the U.S. economy is many-fold outweighed by the cultural and spiritual destruction it causes. Most non-European immigrants, be they African, East Asian, Jewish or Hispanic, create an environment of hostile racial conflict and bloc politics that distracts from real issues (such as government size and tax reform).
The U.S. needs immigrants like a man with gangrene needs a chainsaw -- you'll get rid of the gangrene but you'll kill the man.
you keep ignoring my argument. If everyone is a manager, then they aren't managing anyone. There is a limit to the number of high paying jobs. Even if every single american was highly educated, half (if not more) would struggle financially. Education helps you fight over the limited number of good jobs, but no matter how hard the general population fights, half the country will struggle to make ends meet.
You don't need a high-paying job to exist. Responsible financial management, even with a lower-paying job, will allow you to save and invest to build wealth. If half the country is spending most of their paychecks on luxury items, then perhaps half the country deserves to struggle.
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@MgtowDemon
Whilst I am certainly sympathetic to outrageous students loans debt
why?
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@Greyparrot
Student loans are rather exorbitant and offered to young people who are not capable of comprehending such a life-altering decision at their age. The average college graduate takes 21 years to pay off their student loan https://www.thebalance.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-pay-off-student-loans-4588027#:~:text=Updated%20June%2025%2C%202019.%20Federal%20student%20loan%20providers,timeline%20for%20payoff%20with%20a%20standard%20repayment%20plan. . In real terms, it takes someone half their expected working life to pay off a loan which may not help them become employed, seeing that roughly 2/3 college graduates won't be able to line up a job, let alone use their degree, to acquire a job in their field https://mystudentvoices.com/collegegradjobs-e581bdc078d2 .
Thus, I believe there is reasonable evidence to suggest student loans are predatory and exploit a vulnerable population.
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@MgtowDemon
there are worse things young people commonly do to wreck their lives like dropping out of highschool and having babies before they are married.
Those consequences persist much longer than school debt.
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@Greyparrot
there are worse things young people commonly do to wreck their lives like dropping out of highschool and having babies before they are married.Those consequences persist much longer than school debt.
It's debatable whether these are worse but they are certainly quite bad (although dropping out of highschool for a good job is desirable imo), perhaps in the same ball-park as student loans.
The key difference is my usage of the word "predatory", in that we have entities (universities) which intentionally offer students with what are likely useless degrees, in order to saddle them with debt for a serious chunk of their lives. Both of your examples do not involve predatory corporate behaviour, hence they are permissible seeing that they are self-inflicted life-outcomes.
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@MgtowDemon
The key difference is my usage of the word "predatory",
well, you can also then make the claim that everything that entices young people to make critically bad decisions are also predatory. From people offering jobs to teens to members of the opposite sex. Where do the excuses end and responsibility begin?
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@MgtowDemon
Whatever economic band aid immigrants provide for the U.S. economy is many-fold outweighed by the cultural and spiritual destruction it causes.
holy shit that is some jingoistic bullshit. America was founded on immigration. Virtually every single American is an immigrant or a descendent of an immigrant. Almost certainly including you.
The U.S. needs immigrants like a man with gangrene needs a chainsaw -- you'll get rid of the gangrene but you'll kill the man.
this comparison doesn't make sense. If anything, it is the opposite. without immigration the U.S. will die. The population will dwindle and the economy will shrink. And then America drops out of it's status as a super power.
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@HistoryBuff
. America was founded on immigration.
America was founded on the assimilation of diverse cultures into a melting pot seeking liberty from the tyranny of government.
Not today's tribal cutural saladbowl falling at the altar of the government elites for table scraps.
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@Greyparrot
America was founded on the assimilation of diverse cultures into a melting pot seeking liberty from the tyranny of government.
And that has changed how?
Not today's tribal cutural saladbowl falling at the altar of the government elites for table scraps.
what has changed? people move to america and their cultural and ethnic heritage is added to the make up of america. The same as it always has. The irish were hated by americans when they started moving to america. People didn't want them coming to america. But now they are a core part of what america is. You are no different than the people who despised the irish.
what has changed?
Cultural differences should be celebrated but cultural differences also don't matter. The greatest Orwellian doublethink to ever corrupt the nation of America.
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@Greyparrot
well, you can also then make the claim that everything that entices young people to make critically bad decisions are also predatory. From people offering jobs to teens to members of the opposite sex. Where do the excuses end and responsibility begin?
I'm not making that claim because there are clear, threshold distinctions between predatory loans and anything that may influence young people to make critically bad decisions.
For example, there is a distinction between one of your friends saying 'it would be cool to have a kid by the time you're 18', versus a governmentally backed institution designed to screw over the majority of people who engaged with it. One is a naïve suggestion whilst the other is willfully malicious.
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@MgtowDemon
You kinda dodged my question, and also made a claim that "predatory" is a clear term when dealing with young people making critical life decisions.
You do know the 3 Brookings rules yes? I mentioned them earlier in this thread I think.
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@HistoryBuff
holy shit that is some jingoistic bullshit. America was founded on immigration. Virtually every single American is an immigrant or a descendent of an immigrant. Almost certainly including you.
It's actually a fact based on mountains of research and statistical analysis.
America was founded on European immigration. This is very distinct from general immigration (i.e. immigrants of every race allowed access) because different races have different abilities and in-group biases. This effects abilities not only in academic and job outcomes, but it also effects the capacity to integrate into native culture.
Fyi I'm not American, so you're not even correct about that either.
this comparison doesn't make sense. If anything, it is the opposite. without immigration the U.S. will die. The population will dwindle and the economy will shrink. And then America drops out of it's status as a super power.
Absolutely not. Historically, every empire that has suffered immigration of differing/races cultures inevitably experiences bloc politics which degenerates the empire into being weak enough to be trampled by invasion or implode. https://www.docdroid.net/5CdrehR/the-fate-of-empires-by-sir-john-glubb-pdf .
Whatever short term benefit you gain from having immigrants do the low-status jobs the native population doesn't want to do, you will suffer tenfold when the ancestors of those immigrants become complacent and expect the same lifestyle as the native population, thus creating the same problem they supposedly fixed.
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@Greyparrot
You kinda dodged my question
Nope. I told you that institutions peddling these dreadful financial decisions should take responsibility, and any teenager heeding bad advice from friends should also take responsibility. I'm not going to list millions of cases of where the line is. If you wish for insight on a particular case, then present it to me.
and also made a claim that "predatory" is a clear term when dealing with young people making critical life decisions.
Yeah, intentionally and maliciously taking advantage of people is predatory.
You do know the 3 Brookings rules yes? I mentioned them earlier in this thread I think.
It would be nice if you quoted your post.
In any case, Googling the term showed me this:
1. Complete at least a high school education
2. Work full-time
3. Wait until at least age 21 and get married before having a baby
If this what you are referring to?
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@MgtowDemon
Sorry I am listening to a hour and a half audiobook of John Glubb
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@Greyparrot
Sorry I am listening to a hour and a half audiobook of John Glubb
That's Sir John Glubb to you.
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@MgtowDemon
It's actually a fact based on mountains of research and statistical analysis.America was founded on European immigration.
lol, no. There were large waves of immigrants from lots of places. Asia, africa etc. The idea that america is founded on Europeans only is a literal whitewash of history.
his is very distinct from general immigration (i.e. immigrants of every race allowed access) because different races have different abilities and in-group biases.
I really wanted to avoid having to say your opinions are racist. But saying "different races have different abilities" pretty much closed the door on that. That is some clear cut racism.
Historically, every empire that has suffered immigration of differing/races cultures inevitably experiences bloc politics which degenerates the empire into being weak enough to be trampled by invasion or implode.
There are cases where that is true. Often because the ruling class discriminates against these people and causes them to have no loyalty to the state or it's ruling class. So it often isn't the immigration that is the problem, but the discrimination causing immigrants to become a problem.
But some of those empires he talks about could not have survived as long as they did without immigration. The romans for example relied on immigration to survive. Without it they would have collapsed centuries earlier than they did. The military basically required germans to function.
Whatever short term benefit you gain from having immigrants do the low-status jobs the native population doesn't want to do, you will suffer tenfold when the ancestors of those immigrants become complacent and expect the same lifestyle as the native population, thus creating the same problem they supposedly fixed.
why are you assuming that immigrants "do the low-status jobs the native population doesn't want to do"? immigrants come with all sorts of educational backgrounds. There are tons of doctors, nurses, lawyers etc who are immigrants. This seems like more racist assumptions.
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@Greyparrot
Communism - "A theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs."
The government owning all property is fundamentally unequal.
Each person has a different level of need, from physical to mental ect, therefore this is also unequal
You are wrong in regards to this topic.
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@HistoryBuff
lol, no. There were large waves of immigrants from lots of places. Asia, africa etc. The idea that america is founded on Europeans only is a literal whitewash of history.
The majority of initial settlement in America was European, hence the term "founded". Clearly, there was no reference to subsequent immigration.
I really wanted to avoid having to say your opinions are racist. But saying "different races have different abilities" pretty much closed the door on that. That is some clear cut racism.
"Racist" isn't sufficient or worthwhile criticism. If you had logical issues with my arguments, you would use rationale and data/papers to disprove what I am saying, instead of pejorative labels. If you cannot muster the former, then meaningful discussion isn't for you.
There are cases where that is true. Often because the ruling class discriminates against these people and causes them to have no loyalty to the state or it's ruling class. So it often isn't the immigration that is the problem, but the discrimination causing immigrants to become a problem.
No, every empire for the last 2800 years (minus the most recent 50), since the Assyrian to the British, has experienced this difficulty http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf
It may be the case that the ruling class discriminates against these people -- that would need to be analysed on a case-by-case basis, of which you haven't provided, and thus your claim of "often" is currently unsupported. In fact, if I were to afford you this argument, you prove that immigration is the problem, because it causes the ruling class to discriminate against them, and therefore create unloyal people. You have actually argued against yourself here.
But some of those empires he talks about could not have survived as long as they did without immigration. The romans for example relied on immigration to survive. Without it they would have collapsed centuries earlier than they did. The military basically required germans to function.
Lol. You stating that they "could not have survived", when we have no account of them not surviving, begs the question. In other words, your argument requires historical evidence that didn't occur.
why are you assuming that immigrants "do the low-status jobs the native population doesn't want to do"? immigrants come with all sorts of educational backgrounds. There are tons of doctors, nurses, lawyers etc who are immigrants. This seems like more racist assumptions.
That is the function they typically fulfill. That also is the source of the issue, as the doctors and lawyers (nurses is debatable) tend to be desirable people to have in a country (as long as they are kept to a limited amount, given the racial and cultural misalignment with the native population).
I would welcome foreigners, of any colour, with first world genes, so long as the native population remained a racial majority.