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@Mopac
Defining god as "the ultimate reality" doesn't make him real. I can define Ghrevana, a god I just made up as "the ultimate, self evident reality." And that's equally unconvincing that Ghrevana exists
Arguments against God
Posts
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@Mopac
That's all good, Ultimate Reality = everything
But why is god the ultimate reality?
Put forth your best arguments against the existence of a God.
Atheism is not a belief, it is a lack of belief. There is no reason to be atheists, it is just a category for those who have a lack of faith. Therefore there is no way to convert one to atheism. In a nutshell, atheism is as follows; You say God is real. I say do you have evidence. I say I don't believe you. When you make this statement, you have assumed that the BoP is on atheists, which is incorrect. Religious folks are the ones proposing an idea, so it is, therefore, their duty to prove beyond reasonable doubt that their idea is true.
I will define God as Maximal Great Being, that is omnipotence(all powerful), omniscience, (all knowing) and omnipresence (all loving).
With this comes the issue of evil. Take the example of the holocaust. God being omniscience was aware of Jews being killed. God being omnipresence has sympathy for Jews, and God being omnipotence has the ability to stop the mass murder. All of the above cannot be the case.
Essentially, my stance is not a belief, it is a lack of belief. So far, there has been no one who has convinced me of the exsistance of God.
This is a very interesting conversation. Thank you all for engaging in it.
I'm tending to lean toward the notion that, if an omnipotent, omnipresent God exists, for all people, regardless of faith or belief, a real Entity, then His existence must be able to be proven empirically. Otherwise, God only exists within the minds of believers. That is, everyone has their own God within them, for themselves, in their own way, and their God has no authority or sway over anyone else. Of course, individuals can compare their own constructions and manifestations of their Gods with others and they are free to imagine they are the same God.
Thank you for the chance to weigh in. I hope I'm not barging in.
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@Mopac
it seems logic won't work on you. Let's see if emotion works. I am literally going to plagiarize another guy because I love his argument lol
At first it seems simple, God is the ultimate truth, it's self-evident, why doubt it? But it is precisely because it is the supreme God above all, that I must think about it. There are many problems that I encounter. Why are we suffering every day? Why does God not reveal himself to us? And if God is real, why would we have to pray to him to gain something in return? None of these questions have been answered, only given the simplest pure idea: God is the ultimate truth. It's times like this when I think, perhaps it isn't the blessing the God, but rather, the problem that evil presents to me. So today, are we here to discuss whether god exists? No, this concerns if you are willing to believe in yourself and your people instead.
What philosophy does God present? I've been on this planet for quite some time, I've seen some come, I've seen some go. Some people were forced to go, they respect the rules. Some go by their own volition, they respect their decision. Some want to challenge the world. On top of that mountain of ambition may be the "best model" trophy. Some people want to go on a vacation, their journey is called the space and the ocean. Some people already left this planet, but are still in another universe. Some people are here physically, some people are here in your heart. Because, the truth is already here. Everyday, every year, I listen to the people praying, saying God is all, God is the ultimate truth. I say no thank you, I believe in myself and my people. Because my loved ones told me, they lived a whole life of warmth, and the only thing they can't give up is love, unity, and freedom. You think God is with here with you, but you ignore the accomplishments we hold. Those important values are already here as the ultimate truth, so the persons that work together with you, becomes the ultimate truth.
One Piece's Hiluruk used his life goal to create in his mind representation of memories, ultimate truths to him. This was displayed by pink snow, and everyone beside him laughed at his stupidity, insanity, dumbness, but he succeeded. He let the entire world see his powerful message. Before dying, he said: "You will not die to bullets penetrating your chest. You will not die to an incurable disease. Only being forgotten, is the true death." Those that you truly loved, and left, those men and women who lived on this planet, will never die, because they lived in your heart, as your own pink snow, falling still. This is the ultimate truth, the power of the people.
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@seldiora
You can't use logic to destroy The Truth.
You can't use emotion to destroy The Truth either.
The God I believe in is The God of Truth.
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
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@Mopac
Of course, it’s obvious, God is the ultimate truth, it's self-evident, why doubt it? But it is precisely because it is the supreme God above all, that I must think about it. There are many problems that I encounter. Why are we suffering every day? Why does God not reveal himself to us? And if God is real, why would we have to pray to him to gain something in return? None of these questions have been answered, only given the simplest pure idea: God is the ultimate truth. It's times like this when I think, perhaps it isn't the blessing the God, but rather, the problem that evil presents to me. So today, are we here to discuss whether god exists? No, this concerns if you are willing to believe in yourself and your people instead.
What philosophy does God present? I've been on this planet for quite some time, I've seen some come, I've seen some go. Some people were forced to go, they respect the rules. Some go by their own volition, they respect their decision. Some want to challenge the world. On top of that mountain of ambition may be the "best model" trophy. Some people want to go on a vacation, their journey is called the space and the ocean. Some people already left this planet, but are still in another universe. Some people are here physically, some people are here in your heart. Because, the truth is already here. Everyday, every year, I listen to the people praying, saying God is all, God is the ultimate truth. I say no thank you, I believe in myself and my people. Because my loved ones told me, they lived a whole life of warmth, and the only thing they can't give up is love, unity, and freedom. You think God is with here with you, but you ignore the accomplishments we hold. Those important values are already here as the ultimate truth, so the persons that work together with you, becomes the ultimate truth.
One Piece's Hiluruk used his life goal to create in his mind representation of memories, ultimate truths to him. This was displayed by pink snow, and everyone beside him laughed at his stupidity, insanity, dumbness, but he succeeded. He let the entire world see his powerful message. Before dying, he said: "You will not die to bullets penetrating your chest. You will not die to an incurable disease. Only being forgotten, is the true death." Those that you truly loved, and left, those men and women who lived on this planet, will never die, because they lived in your heart, as your own pink snow, falling still. This is the ultimate truth, the power of the people.
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@AddledBrain
If ultimate reality exists only in the minds of believers, then ultimate reality is contingent on the human mind.
If the ultimate reality is contingent on anything, it would not be the ultimate reality.
The Ultimate Reality cannot be noumenon(an object of the mind)
The Ultimate Reality is God.
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@seldiora
The Way is God.
Abide in The Eternal Way of Truth.
Walk the path.
If you can't see the path to walk, there is still a work of faith that can be done. Purify the heart.
I point to Orthodox Christianity. Put it into practice. Everything is there.
With men, everyone is forgotten. There isn't a hair that has fallen off your head that God hasn't numbered. The One who remembers everything is God. There is no salvation outside of God.
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@Mopac
Of course, it’s obvious, God is the ultimate truth, it's self-evident, why doubt it? But it is precisely because it is the supreme God above all, that I must think about it. How do I best give to god? How can I accept my sins? How do we best unite as one to prove our changed minds? None of these questions have been answered, only given the simplest pure idea: God is the ultimate truth.
It's times like this when I think, perhaps it isn't the blessing the God,but rather, the problem that faith presents to me. So today, are we here to discuss whether god exists? No, this concerns if you are willing to believe in yourself and your people instead.
What philosophy does God present? I've been on this planet for quite some time, I've seen some come, I've seen some go. Some people were forced to go, they respect the rules. Some go by their own volition, they respect their decision. Some want to challenge the world. On top of that mountain of ambition may be the "best model" trophy. Some people want to go on a vacation, their journey is called the space and the ocean. Some people already left this planet, but are still in another universe. Some people are here physically, some people are here in your heart.
Because, the truth is already here. Everyday, every year, I listen to the people praying, saying God is all, God is the ultimate truth. I say, maybe, but I believe more in myself and my people. Because my loved ones told me, they lived a whole life of warmth, and the only thing they can't give up is love, unity, and freedom. You think God is with here with you, but you ignore the accomplishments we personally hold. Those important values are already here as the ultimate truth.
One Piece's Hiluruk used his life goal to create in his mind representation of memories, ultimate truths to him. He let the falling of pink snow occur, and everyone beside him laughed at his stupidity, insanity, dumbness, but he succeeded. He let the entire world see his powerful message.
Before dying, he said: "You will not die to bullets penetrating your chest. You will not die to an incurable disease. Only being forgotten, is the true death." Those that you truly loved, and left, those men and women who lived on this planet, will never die, because they lived in your heart, as your own pink snow, falling still. This is the ultimate truth, the power of the people.
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@Theweakeredge
this Guy is probably trolling. Notice my massive strawman and how he didn’t even read that I partially accepted his ultimate truth in order to sneakily move the goalpost
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@Mopac
If "Ultimate Reality" (your term for God) exists outside of and independent of human minds, I invite you to prove it, empirically. You can't rationalize a concept for it to be real, you must prove it. That's how the scientific method, the acquisition of knowledge, works. If something can't be proven, it can't be assumed to exist. Either you're going to converse in terms of science or you're going to stick to the category at hand and converse in terms of philosophy and conjecture.
I realize it's a fine distinction but, if you can't prove "Ultimate Reality" (God) then, you can only discuss It as a possibility. You may conjecture about what He means and may be but, you can't assert His unquestionable existence .. that He's an actual phenomenon .. without being cultist.
To everyone who is convinced by whatever Mopac is spouting, notice the fact that whenever pushed, or asked a clear question all they do is repeat what they were already saying? They refuse to actually engage in the argument, and instead call me delusional and the like.
I open this question to anyone and everybody:
Why is god equivalent to the ultimate reality? If she is, it should be simple to demonstrate. Just do that.
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@Theweakeredge
When it comes to the particular question of "why", I actually present God to be the Creator and then move on to why God is the ULTIMATE and we should bow down to Him. Is it okay if I use my religion as my source?
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@Safalcon7
That would be circular reasoning: i.e:
P1: God is the creator
P2: The creator is the ultimate reality
Con: Therefore god
You would be presuming god in the first premise, which is very fallacious.
Although I suppose a more accurate syllogism for your belief would be as such:
P1: My religion says god is the creator
P2: The creator is the ultimate reality
Con: Therefore god
This doesn't change much and if P2 is what I think it to be, then it would only switch the question from why god is the ultimate reality to why this vague notion of a creator (more aligned with a deist's god really) is the ultimate reality?
Of course, I could be misinterpreting what you're saying.
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@seldiora
When you are willing to have a conversation instead of spamming the same post over and over again, I'll be more interested to talk.
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@AddledBrain
Science bows to God.
If there is no ultimate reality, science is meaningless. There can not be knowledge of truth if ultimate reality doesn't exist.
No, I am really quite certain there is ultimate reality. It is the surest truth there is. Nothing else is even possible.
You have performed the required experiment. Your experience is proof that there is some form of existence. If there is a reality as it appears to be(your experience), there by necessity is reality as it truly is.
Reality As It Truly Is... that is God. The Ultimate Reality. I am more certain of God's existence than anything.
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@Mopac
Now isnt that an ironic claim coming from you?
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@Theweakeredge
I'm still a student and I don't pretend to be an expert in theology or philosophy in general. However I attempt to study and learn and I am convinced that God is the ultimate and the one.
Now its not a religion vs religion debate. But I have a cosmological insight that might reflect my particular belief.
So there are two major but contrasting doctrinal schools of thought in my religion. Let's say I belong to one of them and according to that school of thought we (do) have a natural instinct that tells us God exists and therefore the BoP is on atheists. However when questioned, we are actually ENCOURAGED by our scripture to respond respectfully.
Now, it's more of a mix of teleological and cosmological perspective that I use in this case.
So, based on my instincts or anyone's instincts, one should ask WHY do I exist, WHY I am here- right here, at one particular era, and WHERE did I come from and WHERE I am going. That's the instinct or Fitra in Arabic. And that brings me back to the beginning of everything. I start to realize that every single thing and object in the entire universe is contingent rooting back to say, the Big Bang. Now, if I take the approach that the Big Bang is random, it doesn't explain the fine-tuning of the universe. Randomness can't bring out the precise order one might wonder and that brings me to the fruition of the scriptural prophecies. That's another discussion.
Now, when I have realized that every single thing is objectively contingent, then it is obvious that nothing can come out of NOTHING. Therefore, to disprove a non-contingent being, an actual infinite has to be established but that is theoretically implausible. However, even if I say that the universe has no beginning which is not scientifically plausible, that still doesn't explain the actual infinite.
Now with all these contingent beings on the loose, it is easily conceived that at one point nothing ever existed given the abovementioned conditions are fulfilled. And so there must have been a non-contingent ultimate being that CAUSED for every contingent existence that came into being. And we attribute this process to the Almighty God. He, in this case, is the Necessary Being.
To say that He didn't reveal Himself is ignorance. You'll say there are hundreds of scriptures- literally. But the job is upon us to follow the instincts and find the real one. That's all I've to say for now.
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@Theweakeredge
The dictionary itself uses my definition.
That in itself justifies my equating God with Ultimate Reality.
The dictionary is not my authority, I know what my faith teaches. However, the dictionary is supposed to be a neutral source. If you reject the neutral source, we have no common ground. Rather, you have no ground to stand on.
That in itself justifies my equating God with Ultimate Reality.
The dictionary is not my authority, I know what my faith teaches. However, the dictionary is supposed to be a neutral source. If you reject the neutral source, we have no common ground. Rather, you have no ground to stand on.
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@Safalcon7
One problem there, you have to justify every single assertion made, regardless of where you assume the BoP to be, there is necessarily one upon one who makes the claims. Now I will respond later with more in-depth analysis, but for now, here's one central claim that needs evidence.
we (do) have a natural instinct that tells us God exists
That is a claim that needs to be backed up, and backing it up by saying its in the bible or that god says it is circular in reasoning.
Btw, nor I am an expert in philosophy or religion, I am literally a 16-year-old who decided to study. That's all.
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@Mopac
Wrong, we've already had this discussion, I already discredited that idea.
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@Theweakeredge
You aren't capable of discrediting anything other than yourself.
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@Mopac
Once more, instead of addressing my argument from whenever we discussed them, perhaps mentioning something they thought fallacious, they insult me. It should be very clear that Mopac is not being rational here.
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@Theweakeredge
that's something I would not want to prove by simply asserting something. Even if I did, literally anyone could disagree in the absence of empirical evidence. And that's something I don't believe in- having to prove everything empirically where I have clear testimonies to support my claim.
However, A recent study in USA revealed that around 90% people regardless of belonging to a religion (practicing or not) believe in a higher power. That's a proven statistics. I can provide with the source, I have the book still with me. I just gotta dig in to find. But that might tell you something.
and I'm impressed you are 16 and trying to know stuff. I wish I started sooner as well- I missed out on a lot. Carry on. Thanks.
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@Safalcon7
Well no, let's go into your claims:
First of all: Testimonial evidence is not a good standard alone, whenever it supports other evidence it can be, but there are clear studies indicating that testimonial evidence is not reliable:
Second of all: It does not matter if a great many people believe a thing, at least not in regards to the truth of the proposition, what matters is the actual truth of that thing. So no, this appeal to an ad populum does not convince me of much.
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@Theweakeredge
There is nothing to address.
Maybe you'll get it when you are older.
It's always so cute when little kids start learning about logical fallacies.
I remember back when I was 16, in my mind destroying everyone's arguments. Thinking about the things that no one ever thought through! I was the smartest person in the world.
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@Theweakeredge
I didn't say it was testimonies alone.
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@Mopac
Never have I claimed that, nor even insinuated to be the smartest. If you have a counter-argument against mine, present it, other wise your claims are bunk as I have repeatedly shown.
Also I learned of Logical fallacies primarily when I was 15, not 16, I have sharpened my understanding of them, but I do have just a little experience in regards to point them out.