Should we defund the police?

Author: Theweakeredge

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@Theweakeredge
Um no. its a case of a system being unreasonable and training people systemically incorrectly.
An enormous amount of police training is simply "use your best judgement" and the obligatory "try not to screw it up".
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@3RU7AL
Yes, and its very bad, thats my point.
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, and its very bad, thats my point.
Perhaps we should set base pay for patrol officers to $100,000.00 per year in order to allow market-style competition between the landslide of applicants to naturally and inevitably increase cadet quality and competence.
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@3RU7AL
Yeah... I very much doubt that the market will reveal what is best for the people. 
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@Theweakeredge
Yeah... I very much doubt that the market will reveal what is best for the people. 
Well, shitty pay and the constant threat of a violent death will almost exclusively attract a certain caliber of individual.
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@Bringerofrain
Do you think there is more racism towards American Indians than blacks in the United States?
I wouldn't say that the preconceived notions people have toward members of society are necessarily racist.  Even if they were, there's both positive and negative forms of racial prejudice.  Then there's further complexity since prejudice is a localized issue.  I don't think this is a productive way of questioning police bias, but to address you're question, I have been to settings where there isn't a locally cultivated black/white (or whatever) paradigm , but the reservation has more criminal activity than the surrounding area, and has been that way for multiple generations.  As an example, I can recall a false rumor told from father to daughter about someone being found with arrows in their body when she was a young teenager.  Another man gestures to the implicit fear of a "big old Indian" after he had finished discussing a shooting.  On the other hand, there's another person in the high crime area who's well accustomed to interacting with trespassers.  They take just a little because they're poor, and this goes on as long as they stay out of the house.  Of course many will argue that violence has a relationship with drugs.  The police may not talk about it, but they are exposed to the bias that society introduces to them.

  I'm not sure racism gets to the heart of the matter for the profiling that's involved in some of the interactions in question.  The way someone carries themselves, the way they talk, the clothes they wear...These things all communicate information, and it's taken into account within the context of the setting.  In my experience, the sociocultural cues tend to have a profound impact in comparison with the biological ones between members of the same sex.  

Hopefully by now I've also suggested that analyzing the problem of police bias by attempting to ascertain that one race is superior/inferior to another can fail to account for the geographic and socioeconomic distribution of the people within those populations, being divided arbitrarily to a racial construct. 
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@Conway
I agree with all of that, except for perhaps the insinuation that police are overly biased and that the bias theyhave is a real issue. 
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@3RU7AL
Their are appropriate and inappropriate drivers’ use of blind intersections. But the analogy fails because police officers are not blind to their policies unless they close their eyes to them. That’s on them, not the system.
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@fauxlaw
But the analogy fails because police officers are not blind to their policies
A model police officer is exactly like a model soldier, they are functionally a PUPPET of the chain of command.

The person who follows orders to the best of their ability is NEVER RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS.

An individual is only responsible for their individual actions if they "go off script" or "act in bad faith" or "start thinking for themselves" (in other words, "break the chain of command").

BREAKING THE CHAIN OF COMMAND IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE CRIME.
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@Bringerofrain
I agree with all of that, except for perhaps the insinuation that police are overly biased and that the bias they have is a real issue. 
A model police officer is exactly like a model soldier, they are functionally a PUPPET of the chain of command.

The person who follows orders to the best of their ability is NEVER RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS.

An individual is only responsible for their individual actions if they "go off script" or "act in bad faith" or "start thinking for themselves" (in other words, "break the chain of command").

BREAKING THE CHAIN OF COMMAND IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE CRIME.
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@Conway
Of course many will argue that violence has a relationship with drugs.
Violence has a relationship with very specifically BLACK MARKETS.
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@Conway
Hopefully by now I've also suggested that analyzing the problem of police bias by attempting to ascertain that one race is superior/inferior to another can fail to account for the geographic and socioeconomic distribution of the people within those populations, being divided arbitrarily to a racial construct. 
POLICE ARE FUNCTIONALLY SECURITY GUARDS FOR THE RICH.

THE ONLY "BIAS" IS THINKING THAT CERTAIN SKIN-TONES INDICATE POVERTY.
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@Conway
why would that be effective
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@Theweakeredge
thats the very definition of police
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@3RU7AL
The only thing that needs to be defunded are the police unions collectively bargaining against the welfare of the public.
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@Dr.Franklin
Well then most police departments don't employ any police
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@Greyparrot
The only thing that needs to be defunded are the police unions collectively bargaining against the welfare of the public.
Or, we could just make laws apply to the police exactly the same way they apply to everyone else.
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@3RU7AL
Or, we could just make laws apply to the police exactly the same way they apply to everyone else.
The "we" that makes the laws are government union lobbies. how about we eliminate that and change the "we" to the little people they collectively bargain against?

Same for schools. It's time to stop the school employees from collectively bargaining against the children.

Government workers shouldn't be allowed to lobby against the people. 

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@Greyparrot
The "we" that makes the laws are government union lobbies.
The problem isn't "unions".

The problem is lobbyists.

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@3RU7AL
The problem is lobbyists
All Unions lobby and public unions lobby against the public.

Courts across the nation also generally held that collective bargaining by government workers should be forbidden on the legal grounds of sovereign immunity and unconstitutional delegation of government powers. In 1943, a New York Supreme Court judge held:

To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous.

The very nature of many public services — such as policing the streets and putting out fires — gives government a monopoly or near monopoly; striking public employees could therefore hold the public hostage. As long-time New York Times labor reporter A. H. Raskin wrote in 1968: "The community cannot tolerate the notion that it is defenseless at the hands of organized workers to whom it has entrusted responsibility for essential services."

Another common objection to collective bargaining with public-employee unions was that it would mean taking some of the decision-making authority over government functions away from the people's elected representatives and transferring it to union officials, with whom the public had vested no such authority. In this view, democracy would be compromised when elected officials began sharing with union leaders the power to determine government employees' wages, benefits, and working conditions. Furthermore, collectively bargained work rules could alter what public servants did day to day in ways not condoned by either elected officials or the voting public.


This is why American children cannot go to school right now.
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@Greyparrot
Why are you singling out "unions"?

Why not attack corporate lobbyists?
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@Greyparrot
a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy
LABOR UNIONS ARE THE VERY DEFINITION OF DEMOCRACY.
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@3RU7AL
Why are you singling out "unions"?

Stop conflating public unions with private unions.

Read the article and educate yourself.
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@Greyparrot
Stop conflating public unions with private unions.
All of your stated objections apply equally to "both" types.
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@3RU7AL
All of your stated objections apply equally to "both" types.
Absolutely not. Read the article, and also take note of the 3 bolded reasons I posted in post 140 that DO NOT APPLY to private unions.

Conflation is the worst form of ignorance.
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@Greyparrot
Furthermore, collectively bargained work rules could alter what public servants did day to day in ways not condoned by either elected officials or the voting public.
THE UNION MEMBERS ELECT THE OFFICIALS.

THE UNION MEMBERS ARE THE VOTING PUBLIC.

BUT I GUESS IT'S SOMEHOW PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE WHEN CORPORATIONS HOLD GOVERNMENT HOSTAGE.
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@Greyparrot
also take note of the 3 bolded reasons I posted in post 140 that DO NOT APPlY to private unions.
They not only apply to private unions, they apply to CORPORATIONS AS WELL.
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@3RU7AL
THE UNION MEMBERS ARE THE VOTING PUBLIC.
ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY not.

Did you elect the school union leaders that are now locking your children out of schools you paid for?

How utterly a ridiculous statement you just presented, Unions represent union members only.

The entire voting public isn't a member of one collective union in a public industry.

Did you elect the school union leaders that are now locking your children out of schools you paid for?

Most people did not, yet the public union officials have more power than even Joe Biden.

BUT I GUESS IT'S SOMEHOW PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE WHEN CORPORATIONS HOLD GOVERNMENT HOSTAGE.
Twitter banned Trump in an effort to hold the government hostage. It didn't work because Twitter doesn't have a monopoly on services like the government does.

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@3RU7AL
They not only apply to private unions, they apply to CORPORATIONS AS WELL.
No, they don't and I will happily set up a debate where I can show you wrong. Will be the easiest debate ever.

I suggest you actually read the article before accepting the debate though instead of skimming what makes your amygdala tingle.
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@3RU7AL
Did the general electorate of Minneapolis elect this guy?


George Floyd most likely did not.