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@3RU7AL
That's an interesting tactic.
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@Theweakeredge
Perhaps the enticement to do the logic was initially by emotion
I think you're on the right track,
and then died down, perhaps it wasn't there at all.
Can you provide a specific example of such a hypothetical e-motionless human action or activity or goal?
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@Theweakeredge
As for the claim, the whole humans are only motivated by emotion thing, as it was your central claim I don't get why that's hard for you to understand.
Thank you for clearing that up.
Are you familiar with the concept commonly referred to as, "survival instinct"?
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@3RU7AL
Yes I am
and going to the gym, of course it can be motivated by emotions, I see no reason why it needs to be motivated by emotions.
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@Theweakeredge
of course it can be motivated by emotions, I see no reason why it needs to be motivated by emotions.
The practical manifestation of "survival instinct" is exclusively through our E-MOTIONS.
First, and always first, you (EITHER) want something (OR) want to avoid something.
First you WANT and then you figure out HOW to achieve.
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@3RU7AL
I agree you don't choose your wants, I do have a soft determinism in me, but those wants can be logical in nature.
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@Theweakeredge
I agree you don't choose your wants, I do have a soft determinism in me, but those wants can be logical in nature.
Are you perhaps suggesting that it is logical for your "survival instincts" to manipulate your activity with E-MOTION?
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@3RU7AL
Yes, emotions are nothing more than chemicals with properties which affect your body. So yes, it actually is logical.
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, emotions are nothing more than chemicals with properties which affect your body. So yes, it actually is logical.
I think I agree with you, but just to be perfectly clear,
When we started this conversation I was using "logic" in the colloquial sense, meaning "conscious (human) planning (intellectual reasoning) to achieve a specific goal".
And now, we're talking about "logic" in a more technical (not specifically human intellect related) sense, like, when a volcano erupts or a star suddenly goes supernova.
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@3RU7AL
well yeah, my point is that human actions aren't exclusively motivated by emotion, or at the least that would be oversimplifying it.
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@Theweakeredge
well yeah, my point is that human actions aren't exclusively motivated by emotion, or at the least that would be oversimplifying it.
Would you agree that what we commonly refer to as "intelligent conscious human decision making and planning" is 100% motivated by E-MOTION?
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@3RU7AL
No, I don't agree with that, either. Emotion does not always overwhelm rational thinking. It can, but not necessarily. We are not purely and exclusively emotional beings.
The fact is, decisions are best made when both factors are involved, suggesting that the two, emotion and rationale, are not opposites, but merely paired contributors to decision-making.
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@3RU7AL
Well no, because that would be ridiculous. Whenever you take a shower you do it, typically, because you want to be clean. Of course, there are absolutely people who are disgusted with filth or something like that, but there are as many people who simply want to get rid of dead skin for some reason, or know that being dirty isn't healthy. So... yeah, emotion can play a part a lot of times, but to claim that it is behind every decisions will take some more evidence.
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@Theweakeredge
I can prove it is behind nearly every decision. Usually you make a decision on a subconscious level and then you rationalize it, mainly to deny you don't have free will.
Studies have been done the prove the above, but it has also been notes that people with brain damage to the emotional parts of the brain become extremely indecisive, even if they considered themselves logical prior to said accidents.
Here is the other citation
Freewill destroyed
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@Bringerofrain
You do realize I dont believe in free will right? I've debated against it before. Furthermore, of course you can't make decisions, because the center which is responsible for emotions are also responsible for critical thinking, because its just chemicals.
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@Theweakeredge
That isn't true. The emotional part of the rain is in the limbic system. The part of the brain responsible for complex thought is in the frontal lobe.
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@MisterChris
That was great
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@Bringerofrain
And you lose the ability to feel fear whenever you lose the prefrontal cortex, they are linked. Again, they are chemicals. I would know, my brain was undeveloped for a while, I suppose still are for my age, I'm just cognitively functioning enough for it to not matter
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@Theweakeredge
The brain is not just chemicals. If you open it up you'll see it contains solid matter. The lymbic system is responsible for emotion. The frontal lobe for complex thought and reasoning. This is according neuroscientists.
I looked this up on the john hopkins website and provided two citations for why every decision a person makes is based on emotion. If you have an issue with any of the 17 studies cited in those articles, please explain why.
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@Bringerofrain
Obviously not, I'm talking about emotions - yes they go through solid matter, obviously - I'm talking about the parts which change between different emotional states. You don't have a box which activates or deactivates whenever your happy.
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@Theweakeredge
You stated emotions were not in every decision. I provided citations to prove that yes emotions are responsible for every single decision you make, then you provided me a pdf that doesn't disagree with me.
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@Bringerofrain
No.... you see, I argued that while emotions can influence decision and do, they can also not, what you proved is that emotions are made by the brain... which I already agreed with, that source wasn't really convincing of anything more than that. That talks about subconscious decisions being made... not that emotion is responsible for every one, that would be a leap in logic.
"Contrary to what most of us would like to believe, decision-making may be a process handled to a large extent by unconscious mental activity. A team of scientists has unraveled how the brain actually unconsciously prepares our decisions. Even several seconds before we consciously make a decision its outcome can be predicted from unconscious activity in the brain."
Again, I agree that free will does not exist, but you seem to miss the point.
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@Theweakeredge
No.... you see, I argued that while emotions can influence decision and do, they can also not, what you proved is that emotions are made by the brain... which I already agreed with, that source wasn't really convincing of anything more than that. That talks about subconscious decisions being made... not that emotion is responsible for every one, that would be a leap in logic.
Nope, read through the articles I cited again. Studies prove that emotions pretty much rule us. Decisions are made on am unconscious level and then the frontal lobe rationalizes the decision after it is made, making us believe we actually made the decision logically. That is not a leap from what my sources say. The 17 studies cited by those sources indicate decision making is 100% emotional and no logic is involved at all. Not on a conscious level anyway, which is where logic resides.
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@Bringerofrain
No.. the study said that we have subconscious processes which decide what we do before we do, which is true, and that we have biases in certain instances, some negative and other positive. None of this says anything about emotion, perhaps I'm incorrect and simply missing it, but I haven't seen anything in these studies that support your claim directly, if you were to make some assumptions with the language, sure, but definitely not directly. Prove me wrong though, quote the article and show me.
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@Theweakeredge
We aren't using logic on an unconscious level are we? That is a conscious process. The one study cited supports this, because it mentions whe people receive damage to the emotional part of their brain, they become incapable of decision making.
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@Bringerofrain
We aren't using logic on an unconscious level are we? That is a conscious process. The one study cited supports this, because it mentions whe people receive damage to the emotional part of their brain, they become incapable of decision making.
Welcome to thought-club.
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@Theweakeredge
No.. the study said that we have subconscious processes which decide what we do before we do, which is true, and that we have biases in certain instances, some negative and other positive.
And we then make post-hoc rationalizations (that are motivated by E-MOTION).
We tell ourselves a comforting story that makes us feel like we're in control (specifically our alert conscious mind) in order to keep ourselves calm.
None of this says anything about emotion,
You seek things that make you FEEL GOOD.
You avoid things that make you FEEL BAD.
E-MOTION IS YOUR PRIMARY MOTIVE.
E-moderating
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@3RU7AL
You've changed your claim bud, "Primary", second my argument was simply that emotion was not the necessary motivator, since you've all been using this so much, lets actually define emotion shall we?
It's almost as if you two don't know what you're talking about?!!
Furthermore, instinct, which has been developed over an evolutionary millennium is what primarily drives our subconscious mind. You have made a false equivalence, in comparing emotion to instinct, something can be logical without intent. How so? The development of the eye, it is incidental logic, your claims lack substantiation. You are assuming that the subconscious mind only runs on emotion without actual evidence.