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@secularmerlin
I have higher degrees of confidence in the existence of those things which are testable and demonstrable
Such as?
Our most basic axioms
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1,302
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@Tarik
The observable universe.
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@Tarik
The term "subjective meaning" is simply a DESCRIPTION of the DEMONSTRABLE FACT.But demonstrable facts aren’t subjective.
FACTS ARE EMOTIONALLY MEANINGLESS.
ONLY OPINIONS ARE EMOTIONALLY MEANINGFUL.
YOU CRY WHEN SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT DIES.
I DO NOT CRY WHEN SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT DIES.
THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF "SUBJECTIVE MEANING".
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@Tarik
It is apparently SUBJECTIVE because each person VALUES other individuals near them differently than any person VALUES other individuals near them.But why do we value as a whole is the question you’re not answering.
WE VALUE OURSELVES.
AND WE VALUE THE SURVIVAL OF OUR PERSONAL GENETIC CODE.
EVERYTHING ELSE WE THINK WE WANT (emotionally meaningful) SPROUTS FROM OUR SURVIVAL INSTINCT.
COOPERATION WITH OTHER HUMANS THAT DON'T LOOK EXACTLY LIKE US IS A SURVIVAL STRATEGY.
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@secularmerlin
So what about your cookie example, let’s say you have cameras in your house and you see the five year old eat the cookies, is that belief subjective despite the concrete evidence of a video?
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@3RU7AL
THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF "SUBJECTIVE MEANING".
But the question as to why we care at all still remains.
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@Tarik
THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF "SUBJECTIVE MEANING".But the question as to why we care at all still remains.
We care because we are DNA.
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@Tarik
So what about your cookie example, let’s say you have cameras in your house and you see the five year old eat the cookies, is that belief subjective despite the concrete evidence of a video?
Well let's say that isn't part of the original hypothetical but let's examine it anyway. That there is a video showing a short human who resembles your five year old eating cookies is an objective fact. Your belief that it is your five year old eating your cookies is subjective.
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@3RU7AL
We care because we are DNA.
That’s simply not true, not everybody cares.
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@3RU7AL
Mm, our DNA contains evolutionary mutations for surviving, such as cooperation
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@secularmerlin
Your belief that it is your five year old eating your cookies is subjective.
But what if it actually is the five year old and not someone that looks like them, is the belief still subjective if it’s proven?
This is somewhat of a grey area for me because I guess you can make a case for both based on the definition of objective and/or subjective, because objective is defined as “(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.” Judging by that definition if one were to come to the conclusion that the five year old ate the cookies that’s not influenced by personal feelings or opinions rather it’s concrete evidence in the form of a recording.
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@Tarik
The FACT is objective the BELIEF is subjective.
The fact is just cold sterile information. The belief has attached meaning which is subject(ive) to the belief and the person who holds it.
The cookies are gone (fact)
My five year old has chocolate on his face (fact)
My five year old ate my cookies (subjectively inferred belief based on the facts)
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@Tarik
We care because we are DNA.That’s simply not true, not everybody cares.
You are getting hung up on how versus why again. DNA is the mechanism, the how. Why is an interesting thing to speculate about but why implies a goal and there may not be a specific goal. There may not even be a why.
Why do we care? As far as I can tell for no larger reason than that it is the shape of the hole we have been poured into.
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@secularmerlin
Please explain how being dependent upon your personal beliefs isnot subjective.
Please explain how not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts isn’t objective? You have to BELIEVE what your considering and representing.
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@Tarik
not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts
IF you consider facts without the context of your feelings and opinions THEN they are essentially meaningless (merely cold sterile facts)
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@secularmerlin
How?
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@Tarik
How else would you like me to explain?
Let's say someone says to you it is cold outside you should put on a coat. Now that is a pretty normal sentence and you would be forgiven for thinking it was an objective observation.
It is not.
It is subject to several assumptions and biases including but not limited to the assumed meaning of cold (uncomfortable or dangerous to humans) the assumed goal (maintaining body temperature) and even a secondary assumed goal of going outside. All these assumptions are BAKED IN.
Let's look at the same information objectively.
Fact the temperature outside is lower than that required to freeze water.
Ok so what? What does that mean for us right? Well that is just it. If we look at it from the perspective of what does it mean to ME then it is by definition subjective.
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@secularmerlin
If we look at it from the perspective of what does it mean to ME then it is by definition subjective.
But that’s not what I was doing when I went on my rant about consistency making sense.
I believe that if theism is false nihilism is true and since nihilism is depressing and confusing to me that’s why I’m not a nihilist.
This is subjective. It is subject to your feelings and biases and comes from a place of what does this mean to me.
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@secularmerlin
That wasn’t the quote I was referring to but since you brought it up let’s talk about it, I’m willing to admit that the latter end of my quote was subjective but the former isn’t.
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@Tarik
IF theism is false THEN nihilism is true
IF you define nihilism as the state of theism being false THEN you have a definitional tautology not an observation.
IF theism is false THEN theism is false.
I can agree with that. If theism is false then it IS false.
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@secularmerlin
IF you define nihilism as the state of theism being false
I guess you can include that in the definition but it’s not limited to just that.
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@Tarik
Well you are welcome to provide your preferred definition. Still if it is just the state of some stuff being false then the sterile objective fact is still meaningless.
Until we look at it subjectively and ask "what does that mean to me?" It has no impact.
IF theism is false THEN theism is false
IF there is no meaning THEN there is no meaning
IF there is no afterlife THEN there is no afterlife
Not only are these concepts not directly related (belief in an afterlife does not necessitate an accompanying belief in god(s)) but true or false they do not in and of themselves mean anything or suggest any goals or course of action because all those things are subjective. You can't get them from objective facts alone.
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@secularmerlin
Still if it is just the state of some stuff being false then the sterile objective fact is still meaningless.
Well, essentially that’s what nihilism at its core really is so yeah.
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@Tarik
I mean this in the nicest possible way.
So the hell what?
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@secularmerlin
Why does there have to be a what, why can’t it just be that?
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@Tarik
I don't think you understand what I'm asking here. Let's say for the sake of argument that there are no god(s) no afterlife and objective meaning (though I do hope you are starting to see that objectivity and meaning are contradictory) what then is your best practical advice?
In light of the fact that you can't demonstrate any it might not hurt to examine how you might deal with a meaningless reality?
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@secularmerlin
though I do hope you are starting to see that objectivity and meaning are contradictory
No they aren’t
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@Tarik
Do you disagree that meaning requires context?
Also you haven't answered the larger issue in favor of chasing down this small semantic quibble.
What is your best practical advice if there is no afterlife and no intrinsic meaning or point to it all?
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@secularmerlin
Do you disagree that meaning requires context?
Even if I did context doesn’t necessarily warrant subjectivity, I can give examples if you like.
What is your best practical advice if there is no afterlife and no intrinsic meaning or point to it all?
You ask this because whatever answer I give your gonna deem it as subjective (so predictable but I see right through it nice try though) so the objective route is to not give any advice.