Universal Basic Income

Author: secularmerlin ,

Topic's posts

Hot
Posts in total: 202
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 5,698
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @Sum1hugme
    Would you say that there is less need for labor now?
  • Sum1hugme
    Sum1hugme avatar
    Debates: 14
    Forum posts: 504
    3
    3
    8
    Sum1hugme avatar
    Sum1hugme
    --> @secularmerlin
    No, just need for labor in different specializations.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 5,698
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @Sum1hugme
    Jobs like meat packing?
  • Sum1hugme
    Sum1hugme avatar
    Debates: 14
    Forum posts: 504
    3
    3
    8
    Sum1hugme avatar
    Sum1hugme
    --> @secularmerlin
    Well even if you build a robot to pack the meat, you need a technician to maintain it.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 5,698
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @Sum1hugme
    Well even if you build a robot to pack the meat, you need a technician to maintain it.
    We have already automated meatpacking to the highest currently possible degree but IF we had a robot make all the actual cuts rather than those who lack other career opportunities and MUST work to live THEN there would not be hundreds of undocumented injuries every year from coworkers accidentally cutting one another.

    On a separate note IF those who lack other career opportunities had their basic needs met THEN they would not be forced to work in unreasonably fast and unsafe working conditions with such high productivity expectations that some wear diapers to work and others pee into bottles at their stations without taking the time to wash their hands for fear of falling behind and losing the job that they need in order to earn a living. 

    Maybe (some) people enjoy more liberty now but there is also just as much inequality as ever. Perhaps there is no solution to this problem but I still would like to discuss the problem and even hypothetical solutions. 
  • Sum1hugme
    Sum1hugme avatar
    Debates: 14
    Forum posts: 504
    3
    3
    8
    Sum1hugme avatar
    Sum1hugme
    --> @secularmerlin
    Yes that's why I'm asking for solutions, I've proposed two possible methods of implementing this idea: government or charity.

      People have the ability to find another job if theirs is too stressful. And if working conditions are detestable, then they may have to appeal to the government.

      My point Is that even if you automate meat packing, you have to have repair technicians, circuit board builders, steel workers, etc.


      I don't think it's realistic to expect post-scarcity of basic necessities anytime soon.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 5,698
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @Sum1hugme
    government or charity.
    Let follow the logic. Charity cannot be compulsory or it becomes a tax and taxes are the pervue of government so in this case they are the same (or close enough) and the government can only be expected to provide a UBI in as much as human rights are valued and it is the primary goal of government to protect and promote them. 
    People have the ability to find another job
    They have that assumed right but is it a substantive right? And if it is a substantive right then why do so many still work in high pressure and dangerous unskilled labor positions?
  • Sum1hugme
    Sum1hugme avatar
    Debates: 14
    Forum posts: 504
    3
    3
    8
    Sum1hugme avatar
    Sum1hugme
    --> @secularmerlin
    why do so many still work in high pressure and dangerous unskilled labor positions?
    That's really gonna be up to the individual. You'll find as many reasons as there are people.


    What do you propose as a mechanism of providing for people's basic needs? And how would it be more efficient than the current system of working for a living?
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 5,698
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @Sum1hugme
    What do you propose as a mechanism of providing for people's basic needs?
    I have not proposed a mechanism as yet. At present I am merely engaging in socratic dialogue to see if any progress can be made in our thinking on the subject.
    And how would it be more efficient than the current system of working for a living?
    I'm not sure but any system that does not throw away enough food to fill many football stadiums every year and for whom that is not merely the tip of the garbage iceberg would be more efficient. Farming is more efficient now than ever (though it is unclear how long our current farming technology can be fueled with fossil fuels before we must find an alternative or revert to a more labor intensive model) we could conceivably feed (provide minimum caloric intake at a very minimum) many more humans than we do but some humans struggle to eat. Sure some of them are far away and perhaps it would be impractical to feed them but even if that is true I am willing to wager that some human is hungry enough geographically close enough to you that you feel guilty for not finishing your food when you go to a restaurant, where often the portion size is inflated to give a higher perceived value although the practical value is the same as any portion that would maintain you. Food distribution as a business model promotes waste and devalues the right to life in direct proportion to poverty. Even if you or I personally cannot find an answer in this conversation I'm sure we could do better.
  • ebuc
    ebuc avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,325
    3
    2
    4
    ebuc avatar
    ebuc
    --> @secularmerlin
    Even if you or I personally cannot find an answer in this conversation I'm sure we could do better.
    Just as AI program is champion at Chess, Go and other games, climate modelin etc, process huge amounts of possible moves { options } AI programs are best option for offerring huge amoun to of scenarios { models/plans } for UBIncome mechanisms.

    UBI is irrelevant to current modes of operating systems of humanity.  It may be starting place, along with scenarios for clean water, clean air and reducing human caused erratic climate change on Earth.

    I'm skeptical humanity will survive much beyond year 2232 and give my rational for arriving at that conclusion here LINK  End time of Humanity.
  • FLRW
    FLRW avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 448
    2
    2
    5
    FLRW avatar
    FLRW
    --> @ebuc

     I better get working on my DeLorean time machine to see if you are correct. Do you have any flux capacitors?


  • 3RU7AL
    3RU7AL avatar
    Debates: 3
    Forum posts: 8,630
    3
    4
    8
    3RU7AL avatar
    3RU7AL
    --> @secularmerlin
  • ebuc
    ebuc avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,325
    3
    2
    4
    ebuc avatar
    ebuc
    --> @3RU7AL
    AI may help us to find a way around end-time{s]-of-humanity aka dooms-day.

    If BI { biological intelligence } is symbolised by bilateral nervous system ( * * ), then what is the symbol for AI?

    ( * ) ergo cyclopic AI?  Mono-thiestic AI?

    ( ********* ) ergo multiple points-of-view simultaneously?

    ( /*\*/*\/*\/* } ergo wireless EMRadiation intelligence?






  • fauxlaw
    fauxlaw avatar
    Debates: 55
    Forum posts: 2,133
    4
    6
    10
    fauxlaw avatar
    fauxlaw
    --> @secularmerlin
    (just to put an emphasis on free) 
    I refer back to your #1 post, with this cited caveat imposed on it, relative to our rights [are they free?] and our obligation to allow one another's rights to be engaged, that demonstrates a feature your proposition entirely ignores: YOUR personal responsibility.

    So you propose that you receive a notice of eviction, that this is somehow unfair. How, since no right gives you the free access to a residence, a job, your education, or your purchasing power, void of the responsibilities you, yourself, must bring to the table to deserve those commodities. You are NOT free to be a freeloader on society, and that you should expect such, at my expense, or anyone else's, is the abject flaw in socialism. That goes for health care, as well. Look, you may claim that, now that I am retired [although I still work for myself and earn a living by my own sweated brow, and do not have to work, for I have amassed the personal wherewithal to be self-sufficient], that my social security and medicare are free of charge to me. No, my friend. I paid into those benefits from my own income over the 47 years that I was a working stiff, and I am still obligated to pay $140 monthly into medicare. I paid close to 90% of those benefits by my own money; not yours or anyone else's, during those 47 years. The interest that should have been earned by those payments over 47 years should have covered the balance, except that your gov't and mine has robbed those benefit funds for other uses [like handing money to freeloaders]. But, thats not my problem. It's theirs. Let them control their spending just as I have had to control mine. YOU are personally responsible for your status in life. Do something with it other than expect a UBI.
  • fauxlaw
    fauxlaw avatar
    Debates: 55
    Forum posts: 2,133
    4
    6
    10
    fauxlaw avatar
    fauxlaw
    --> @secularmerlin
    What do you propose as a mechanism of providing for people's basic needs?
    How about this: Cover your own arse by your own education and hard work,  with ambition, planning, and execution. Be yourself. Everyone else is taken, along with their wherewithal to achieve. UBI? That's under-rated, banal, and ignorant.
  • 3RU7AL
    3RU7AL avatar
    Debates: 3
    Forum posts: 8,630
    3
    4
    8
    3RU7AL avatar
    3RU7AL
    --> @fauxlaw
    , yourself, must bring to the table to deserve those commodities. You are NOT free to be a freeloader on society, and that you should expect such, at my expense, or anyone else's, is the abject flaw in socialism. That goes for health care, as well. Look, you may claim that, now that I am retired [although I still work for myself and earn a living by my own sweat
    Of course.

    Just kick everybody onto the street and then make it illegal to sleep in public.

    YOU END UP PAYING OVER $20,000.00/YR PER INMATE.

    WHY NOT JUST GIVE THAT EXACT SAME MONEY TO THE PERSON INSTEAD?
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 5,698
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @fauxlaw
    no right gives you the free access to a residence, a job, your education, or your purchasing power, void of the responsibilities you, yourself, must bring to the table to deserve those commodities. 
    IF all these things are necessary to live and we have a substantive right to life then we do deserve these things definitionally. One is afforded rights. One earns privileges. Would you be more comfortable with the privilege to live or the right to live?
  • fauxlaw
    fauxlaw avatar
    Debates: 55
    Forum posts: 2,133
    4
    6
    10
    fauxlaw avatar
    fauxlaw
    --> @3RU7AL
    1. Your assumed legislation is not a solution and would not pass Congress.

    2. Therefore, no cost of inmate expense, so, no need to offer UBI in a similar amount.

    3. Argument fails.
  • fauxlaw
    fauxlaw avatar
    Debates: 55
    Forum posts: 2,133
    4
    6
    10
    fauxlaw avatar
    fauxlaw
    --> @secularmerlin
    I consider the right to life to be exercised more vigorously than by a minimum wage, or even a UBI. What a low-ball goal. No wonder Dems are moving to socialism; no lofty ideals worth achieving. Nonsense. Have you no ambition? That's entirely on you. After all, you have a right to life, but beyond your adolescence,  it is not my responsibility to assure you a decent education and a profitable living. YOU do. Have you an argument against personal responsibility? I will not argue it for you.

     
  • 3RU7AL
    3RU7AL avatar
    Debates: 3
    Forum posts: 8,630
    3
    4
    8
    3RU7AL avatar
    3RU7AL
    --> @fauxlaw
     Your assumed legislation is not a solution and would not pass Congress.
    What are you talking about?

    It's already illegal to sleep in your car and or otherwise in public in most jurisdictions.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 5,698
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @fauxlaw
    This does not in essence answer my question. Is there a right to life or only a privilege of life that may possibly be earned?
  • 3RU7AL
    3RU7AL avatar
    Debates: 3
    Forum posts: 8,630
    3
    4
    8
    3RU7AL avatar
    3RU7AL
    --> @fauxlaw
    Therefore, no cost of inmate expense, so, no need to offer UBI in a similar amount.
    Homeless people visit the emergency department an average of 5 times annually, and the most frequent users visit them weekly. Each visit costs $3700, amounting to $18,500 spent annually for the average user and up to $44,400 for the most frequent users. [**]

    THE "TAXPAYER" IS ALREADY PAYING THE HOMELESS $18,500.00 TO $44,400.00 PER YEAR.
  • fauxlaw
    fauxlaw avatar
    Debates: 55
    Forum posts: 2,133
    4
    6
    10
    fauxlaw avatar
    fauxlaw
    --> @3RU7AL
    Yes, I forgot. But, show me the enforcement of such laws that are filling jails to over-flowing, causing my portion of $20k, each, for their incarceration?  Actually, arrest record show that vagrancy is a criminal matter [misdemeanor] that is addressed, but typically not for the vagrancy, itself, but additional crimes committed by vagrants, petty theft to larceny, and several other crimes. That a large percentage of vagrants also suffer mental illness leading to other misdemeanors and substance abuse is also linked to arrests.
  • 3RU7AL
    3RU7AL avatar
    Debates: 3
    Forum posts: 8,630
    3
    4
    8
    3RU7AL avatar
    3RU7AL
    --> @fauxlaw
    Even more people questioned in 2018 said they had experienced homelessness at some time in their lives. Of those interviewed last year, 66 percent said they had experienced homelessness, while 60 percent said the same in 2014. [**]
    Jails are actually significantly MORE EXPENSIVE than prisons.

    The annual cost, per incarcerated individual, averaged $47,057 in the 35 jurisdictions that responded to Vera’s survey. [**]
  • 3RU7AL
    3RU7AL avatar
    Debates: 3
    Forum posts: 8,630
    3
    4
    8
    3RU7AL avatar
    3RU7AL
    --> @fauxlaw
    What is your adjusted cost per inmate per year magic number?