Necessary evils

Author: secularmerlin

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#631
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@Tarik
Because humans haven't gone extinct. 

Just tell me what makes "objective morality" moral and why I should bother with it when my opinions and the common consensus that human life and wellbeing is worthwhile has always been enough for me and enough for society at large.
#632
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@secularmerlin
Because humans haven't gone extinct. 
How does that support the claim that only mentally ill people are capable of nihilism?
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#633
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@Tarik

Just tell me what makes "objective morality" moral and why I should bother with it when my opinions and the common consensus that human life and wellbeing is worthwhile has always been enough for me and enough for society at large.
#634
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@secularmerlin
Don’t change the subject, answer my question.

How does that support the claim that only mentally ill people are capable of nihilism?
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#635
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@Tarik
No. If you don't know what a sociopath is you wouldn't bring them up so much. Now tell me what makes "objective morality" moral and why I should bother with it when my opinions and the common consensus that human life and wellbeing is worthwhile has always been enough for me and enough for society at large.
#636
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@Tarik
Its a simple one - because everyone has an internally biased view that gives them prescriptive moral views regardless of their conscious realization of this. Mentally ill people being capable of being chemically opposite to this is the only reason why one can be a nihilist practically speaking.
#637
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@secularmerlin
If you don't know what a sociopath is you wouldn't bring them up so much.
Well, if you know as much as you claim to then provide support for it.
#638
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@Theweakeredge
Mentally ill people being capable of being chemically opposite to this is the only reason why one can be a nihilist practically speaking.
And you know this how?


#639
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@Tarik
Because of how psychology works - specifically bias. I want to answer your question, but it has to do what you view morals are specifically - so to lay the groundwork - would you agree to this definition?

Morals - "standards for good or bad character and behavior:" From Cambridge Dictionary - from there its a lot easier to explain if I know what definition your using.

To give a more basic explanation - everyone is guided by preferences that aren't necessarily chosen by you the individual - such preferences include if you like chocolate or vanilla ice cream, soft or hard bristles on a brush, and what does and doesn't convince you. This is proven by several studies, though these concluding that brain activity comes to a specific outcome 10 seconds before a decision is actively made [LINK]. 

So - whether you are actually swayed by a particular tenet or such is not really your choice - though - you can fight against bias by research - anywho; this bias is created by your experience of life - peers, parents, media, etc, and therefore each person is going to be swayed by these biases, even the position that human life doesn't matter is a moral view. In order for someone to not have this, they would have to be swayed by something other than bias.

The only way that can happen is inequality of chemicals in brain chemistry - because then the biases are less biases and biologically driven impulses - nihilism.

#640
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@Theweakeredge
In order for someone to not have this, they would have to be swayed by something other than bias.
I sense a cognitive dissonance here because if something other than bias is what your looking for then your quote before the one above

the position that human life doesn't matter
represents just that.
#641
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@Tarik
You completely ignored the bulk of my point, I find myself disappointed. I said, "Even the position that human life doesn't matter is a moral view." is a bias, so... please actually read. Respond to my questioning and the ENTIRETY of my argument or else you will receive no further responses.
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#642
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@Tarik
Well, if you know as much as you claim to then provide support for it.
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#643
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@Tarik
@Theweakeredge
Even the position that human life doesn't matter is a moral view.
Well stated.
#644
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@Theweakeredge
You completely ignored the bulk of my point, I find myself disappointed. I said, "Even the position that human life doesn't matter is a moral view." is a bias, so... please actually read.
I did, just because I paraphrased to show emphasis doesn’t mean it changed the whole meaning of the quote.

Respond to my questioning and the ENTIRETY of my argument or else you will receive no further responses.
So what? It wouldn’t be the first time, every time we get into it you go ghost for a little while and pop back into the blue as if you’re gonna be a difference maker. What you fail to understand is if I’m right in the “point” I did respond to then the “ENTIRETY” of your argument falls apart completely just based on that alone, so miss me with your hypocrisy and telling me how to argue (which I told you about before).
#645
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@secularmerlin
If you’re gonna attempt to use my words against me then at the very least be specific as to what your referring to because right now you haven’t made a point. So far I was mainly the one that provided support (the definition of nihilism that lead to you dropping your argument is an example  of this, how can you forget?) for my claims, considering that’s how proper argument structure works (although I don’t expect you to know anything about that).
#646
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@Tarik
No - you simply tried to set up a gotcha - you did not respond to a SINGLE point I made. Try again bud. Your attempted gas lighting is getting old.
#647
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@Theweakeredge
No - you simply tried to set up a gotcha - you did not respond to a SINGLE point I made. 
Well if the gotcha was successful (which I don’t expect you to view as such but that’s why we’re here) then that would resonate as a sufficient response to your so called “point” I would say.
#648
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@Tarik
And so.
#649
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@zedvictor4
...So according to you, you living by a code of conduct is also you accepting a code of conduct ergo morality, that contradicts earlier when you said

People neither accept nor reject morality
#650
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@Tarik
Nope.

You purposefully find contradiction where none exists....For the sake of argument, I assume.


Nonetheless.

We internally develop and establish a code of conduct or morality.....(Refer to such words and define them as you will)

A code of conduct/morality influenced formatively by our personal environment, and latterly by a wider environment. 

So nothing is set in stone.....Output varies, relative to where and how we were conditioned, and also to how we are influenced. 


In simple terms, we behave as we have become.


Acceptance and rejection are philosophical considerations. Only for when we are so focussed.
#651
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@zedvictor4
You purposefully find contradiction where none exists....For the sake of argument, I assume.
Do you even know what a contradiction is? It’s when you go against your word by saying the opposite which is exactly what you did when saying you can’t accept morality and in the next breath (unintentionally) spoke about those who do, your not making any sense.
#652
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@Tarik
Nope...Misinterpretation.

You instigated the contention, and I responded.


If one has an established pattern of behaviour/way of thinking, then "rejection" of such, is simply a matter of changing or varying ones out look....Usually in response to something.


You make an unnecessary emotional plea, with with words like rejection.

I do not reject the concept of  morality and cast it into the wilderness......I still maintain a personal code of conduct/morality towards others and towards my environment. 
#653
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@zedvictor4
Nope...Misinterpretation.
I didn’t misinterpret jack, I literally asked you for clarification and you hit me back with

And so.
so man up and stop looking for bs excuses because that’s elementary dude.
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#654
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Your definition of nihilism is two parts and once I pointed put that anyone who has moral principles cannot be a nihilist even if they are irreligious or even if they are anti religious and once I pointed that out you dropped the point.

#655
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@secularmerlin
...Now you’re just lying because that was never my point to begin with, anyway you still didn’t answer my question

How does that support the claim that only mentally ill people are capable of nihilism?
That is unless YOU want to drop that “point”.
#656
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@Tarik
No - I corrected you - 

I sense a cognitive dissonance here because if something other than bias is what your looking for then your quote before the one above

the position that human life doesn't matter
represents just that.
 And I responded:

 "Even the position that human life doesn't matter is a moral view." is a bias
So no - you did not "paraphrase" my argument, you barely TOUCHED It. You literally only responded to a SINGLE point within it, you dropped:
  1. How mentally ill people develop nihilism
  2. How biases are in everyone
But even your one point was so blatantly wrong, all you have you do to correct it is READ THE ENTIRE SENTENCE. Believing that human life doesn't matter is A BIAS - and ISN'T NIHILISM. If you think that is Nihilism you don't actually know what your talking about. You are not actually presenting my arguments fairly, you are cherry picking - you have ZERO excuses here bud, so stop making them. 



#657
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@Theweakeredge
How mentally ill people develop nihilism
Don’t you think we need to discuss what nihilism is first before we can discuss anything further concerning it? Which is what I was doing when I made my previous responses.

How biases are in everyone
...Another cognitive dissonance, the first point that I “ignored” discusses nihilists and the second touches on how nobody can be one because there’s biases in everyone, which one is it dude? You’re not making any sense.

But even your one point was so blatantly wrong, all you have you do to correct it is READ THE ENTIRE SENTENCE. Believing that human life doesn't matter is A BIAS - and ISN'T NIHILISM.
So in what instance is it not bias? Because to me the position that human life matters is the biased position because theirs an emotional appeal for human life which is biased, the belief that it doesn’t matter means there is no appeal of emotion (at least in that regard). Lastly I never said that nihilism was defined by that alone, in fact I believe nihilism is much more complex than that and defining it by that alone is an oversimplified understatement.
#658
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@Tarik
No - because unlike you - I am acutely aware of what Nihilism is - namely:

"Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated." [LINK]
You have an extremely BIASED perspective of what Nihilism is.

You are being PEDANTIC - how do you not understand these simple things? I know -it's because you're obsessed with gotchas, dropping them, or presenting red herrings as soon as anyone cares to engage long enough. The fact of the matter is that NIHLISTS are not any of the usual population because everyone has VALUES whether they realize it or not. This ENTIRE little conversation was about people who are mentally ill are the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE - jesus how are you this daft? Do you not remember asking how mentally ill people are the only people who can be nihilists? 

I literally gave you an entire explanation, and you IGNORED IT. And once again you are WRONG - I said - everyone is driven by bias - however one can MITIGATE the bias by research, though it is still bias - the aspect of LEARNING can make it less biased. However the fact that you are still learning FROM humans results in bias regardless. Appeals to emotion have NO logic or ATTEMPT TO MITIGATE bias. Logic and research is the act of mitigating bias - in simple terms anyways.

The people who CANNOT do this - are people who are unable to be biased, which only happens in mentally ill people, and only a rare subection. Please READ the entire thing here.

#659
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@Theweakeredge
No - because unlike you - I am acutely aware of what Nihilism is - namely:
Even if that is true (which it isn’t) then that’s even more reason to discuss it, so that I can be aware.

You have an extremely BIASED perspective of what Nihilism is.
Unless you have a direct quote from me I haven’t discussed with you my perspective (as far as I know).

You are being PEDANTIC - how do you not understand these simple things? I know -it's because you're obsessed with gotchas, dropping them, or presenting red herrings as soon as anyone cares to engage long enough.
What I do understand is unless you can prove these claims to be true with quotes from me then they mean nothing, although it may seem that I’m obsessed with gotchas considering that I “gotcha” so many times already.

The fact of the matter is that NIHLISTS are not any of the usual population because everyone has VALUES whether they realize it or not. This ENTIRE little conversation was about people who are mentally ill are the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE
Nothing in any of the links you’ve provided says this, so unless you have any adequate proof then again it’s nothing more than a baseless claim.

Appeals to emotion have NO logic or ATTEMPT TO MITIGATE bias.
If you have to lie on my behalf to feel like you’ve gotten ahead in this discussion then your pathetic, nowhere in my argument did I say appeal of emotion mitigates bias in fact I argued the contrary by saying the position that human life doesn’t matter shows no emotional appeal for human life therefore it can’t be biased.
#660
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@Tarik
I AM ARGUING THAT LOGIC MITIGATES BIAS - that is MY ARGUMENT. 

Futhermore - that is the DEFINITION OF NIHILISM AS GIVEN BY THE STANDARD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PHILOSOPHY - your "that's not true" is not an argument. You are just wrong. Continuing on, seriously, your denying it now? Here is what YOU ASKED previously:
"How does that support the claim that only mentally ill people are capable of nihilism?" (Tarik, #634)
Here is what I responded with:
"Its a simple one - because everyone has an internally biased view that gives them prescriptive moral views regardless of their conscious realization of this. Mentally ill people being capable of being chemically opposite to this is the only reason why one can be a nihilist practically speaking." (Theweakeredge, #636)
To "prove" my argument which is actually against yours - [LINK] 
"Signs and symptoms of mental illness can vary, depending on the disorder, circumstances and other factors. Mental illness symptoms can affect emotions, thoughts and behaviors."
Such changes in thoughts and behaviors can include:

"Detachment from reality (delusions), paranoia or hallucinations"
DETACHMENT FROM REALITY - which CAN - not always - but CAN include hallucination - which effectively makes the individual incapable of distinguishing bias - there is no difference between the fact that grass is green from the "moral" truth that you shouldn't kill people. Practically eliminating bias. But you've IGNORED MY CENTRAL ARGUMENT, which is that EXCEPT mentally ill people, NOBODY can be a nihilist - I DEMONSTRATED this previously in post #639.

You also failed to answer the question I presented for CLARITY in the same post:
"Because of how psychology works - specifically bias. I want to answer your question, but it has to do what you view morals are specifically - so to lay the groundwork - would you agree to this definition?

Morals - "standards for good or bad character and behavior:" From Cambridge Dictionary - from there its a lot easier to explain if I know what definition your using."
(Theweakeredge, #639)
You have continuously tried to play around, and have failed to stay on topic - I have EVIDENCE that you are being pedantic,  not answering questions, ignoring a bulk of the points in my argument, only interested in gotcha's, etc.