Noah's arch must be pretty big.

Author: Bones

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#31
Theweakeredge
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@fauxlaw
There was a mass extinction 10,000 years ago bud... there were more species back then.
"During the late Pleistocene, 40,000 to 10,000 years ago, North America lost over 50 percent of its large mammal species. These species include mammoths, mastodons, giant ground sloths, among many others. In total, 35 different genera (groups of species) disappeared, all of different habitat preferences and feeding habits."

#32
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@ronjs
Yes, that is effectively what I meant.
#33
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@Theweakeredge
So, species come and go. Who's to say how many were there when...? As I said, probability has its basis in fact, but not with 100% confidence. Look how confident we were with geocentrism.
#34
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@fauxlaw
Okay - taking your argument at its face - we can't be 100% sure that this is the case, but the evidence does suggest and point towards this being untrue..... so - are you arguing that there is a preponderance of the evidence that the ark couldn't have happened, but... ya know, we can't be 100 certain that's the case? Because if so, that was never my argument, I am arguing - most likely - it was impossible, we can't be 100% certain of almost anything without taking some axioms, and have stated as such a lot.
#35
Reece101
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@fauxlaw
Yet if The Bible wasn’t involved you would be asking for proof.
Be honest.
Do you understand how bad faith you sound?

I shouldn’t be surprised. You suggested Noah genetically sequenced and cloned hundreds of thousands of species. 
(Which there would be genetic proof of).
#36
fauxlaw
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@Reece101
I never mentioned a count of species. Others have proposed various numbers. However, I do acknowledge that the Bible is replete with examples of miracles. That a miracle of DNA collection may have been in Noah's wheelhouse, his lack of full understanding not withstanding, the miracle is a possibility. No less so than assuming he somehow fit however many of adult, offspring-bearing animals into a boat of x-cubits in size. I ask no less proof of either proposal.
#37
Reece101
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@fauxlaw
I was steelmanning the argument for you, which was an impossible task in and of itself. 

Are you saying your sceptical and your just spitballing ideas of what you think is more plausible? How about it didn’t happen? 
#38
fauxlaw
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@Reece101
How about it didn’t happen? 
You mean the ark and the flood at all? No, I accept the story, both Genesis and others.
However, my position on the common argument that God's vengeance for the world's wickedness is tempered by the belief that God was more concerned with the probability that men would become so corrupt as to render themselves completely irredeemable, even by Christ's atonement. Yes, it may appear to be an act of denial of free agency, a concept I also support, but in the act of preventing their irredeemability by their choice of actions, the people who were destroyed at least retain their ability in an afterlife to repent of their actions and earn redemption. That is a God of everlasting love. Tough love, if you will.  After all, I also accept that mortal life ends by death for everyone, but that death is not an end, but merely a portal for what is to come. You will find, with further discourse, that I am not your typical Christian. I apply more power, and more compassion, and  literal fathership, to God than most, as well as more growth and potential for eternal growth to man than most.
#39
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@fauxlaw
Hmmm okay, okay... *thinking face* ... Maybe God taught Noah rocket science and the ark is actually a spaceship! Back then they lived for hundreds of years right?
#40
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@Reece101
hundreds of years
Yes, and that, genetically, makes sense, since there were fewer possibilities of genetic mutation [mitosis] due to environmental and biologically degrading effects. As the environmental and biological changes occur, more mutation potential exists, one effect being a shortening of lifespan. As medical science has improved, we have found increasing lifespan capability.

Consider, for example, that when James Madison proposed that Presidents be at least 35 years of age, the lifespan in 1788 [approx] America was 38. Presidents were expected to die in office, thus no provision was made, then, for presidential succession other than by the Vice Pres, or election.
#41
Reece101
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@fauxlaw
Ignoring telomeres and cancer. 
#42
Polytheist-Witch
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@Reece101
Hmmm okay, okay... *thinking face* ... Maybe God taught Noah rocket science and the ark is actually a spaceship! Back then they lived for hundreds of years right?
That sounds like Stephen territory.
#43
fauxlaw
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@Reece101
Telomeric mutation, and all other mutation, as well, such as cancer, is the result of environment, either by our choice, or outside of our control. Regardless, we have a longer expected lifespan since our understanding of what we can, and cannot control.
#44
Reece101
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@fauxlaw
You have no idea. Telomeres show there’s a natural age limit. Cancer isn’t just caused by external factors, it’s also caused by our internal clock. 
#45
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@Stephen
 And they wonder why and take offence when  it is  that their IQ is brought into question.
I think it has less to do with their IQ and more to do with their traditions and inability to want to change. 
#46
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@Reece101
What you call madness, they call a Sunday.  
Yeah, ok. 

Madness = Sunday ?????

What do they call Friday? Happy Day.   And Tuesday? Pension Day. 
Topic's author
#47
Bones
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@fauxlaw
BY DNA samples instead of the whole animal?
Well no. Genesis 7 : 1 states 

"Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
Of course, you are free to interpret whatever you want, but on face value, it would appear that 7 kinds of every bird, male and female, does not mean 7 kinds of DNA samples, it means 7 physical animals. 

With God involved, perhaps he taught Noah how to collect the samples, and how to generate new living beings from it. Far-fetched, yes, but impossible?
Please provide a verse which supports that God instructed Noah to collect DNA samples to generate new living beings. 

That option is far more likely, but the DNA sampling bit is a possibility.
Another more believable possibility is that perhaps this never happened and that the bible is simply a collection of stories...? If someone told me that a being chucked 8.7 million animals onto a boat to spare them, I wouldn't really view that view too highly.  
#48
BrotherDThomas
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@Bones


10_01

YOUR QUOTE OF THE WRONG NUMBER OF SPECIES UPON NOAH'S ARK IN POST #47: "If someone told me that a being chucked 8.7 million animals onto a boat to spare them, I wouldn't really view that view too highly."

You missed the boat, no pun intended, whereas the number of animals, birds, fish, insects that was on Noahs Ark was approximately 139 million 200 thousand that was concluded with your initial post being 8.7 million x 16 pairs of each as the Bible so states in my link below:

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#49
Bones
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@BrotherDThomas
Well then Thomans, that makes fauxlaw's job of proving the possibility of putting not 87 million animals on a boat, but in fact 139 million and 200 thousand animals on a boat. 
#50
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@Bones
Hi quick question - 

are these numbers actual known species of animals or estimates of species? 


After all every year the number of species grow or are eradicated not necessarily according to real numbers of species but estimates only. 

Honestly, I don't know but it would be nice to see the breakup of these animals. 

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#51
Bones
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@Timid8967
Currently, there are 8.7 species on the planet, however, according to the bible, there were many more than 8.7 billion animals on the ark.  Brother has done the maths here 
#52
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@Bones
ok. it does not answer my question though. 

The bible does not indicate how many animals went onto the ark. It only mentions that 7 of some and 2 of others and 8 people went on. 

But leaving the bible alone for a moment - since it does not actually reveal a figure,  assuming this story was several thousand years ago, what were the actual number of species then? 

That is what would be interesting to know. Assuming evolution has increased the numbers species since then - and that others have gone the way of the dodo - how do we calculate the number of species today - actual species verses estimation. 

Now that is an fascinating question.  
#53
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@Bones
The natural world contains about 8.7 million species, according to a new estimate described by scientists as the most accurate ever.
But the vast majority have not been identified - and cataloguing them all could take more than 1,000 years.
using your link - it says this number is the most accurate ever - and it is still an estimate - and one that that admits or concedes that the vast majority - so well over 50% and we could probably pretty conservatively take that up to 75% have never been identified.   In fact your link goes onto say only 1.25 have been identified.  Most of the species are micro - many are part of the same family. 

On what basis is this estimate made? With respect it is not very satisfying.  If the numbers are reduced from 8.7 to 2.175 it still is a large number - using today's numbers. 

But what was the figure thousands of years ago.  And what number of animals were necessary to be saved in order to ensure the survival of the species?

Honestly, I don't know - but at first glance it seems improbable - but when we start digging into the facts - the actual facts - and not just estimates of unknown and possibly never able to know numbers of species - then things change somewhat. 

Again - I am a non-theist - and I think the entire story seems made up - but I am never going to ignore the facts - just because I don't like them.  
#54
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@Reece101
Actually, I have a pretty good idea. I met and spoke with Dr. James Watson when he lectured at UCLA in 1966, which was a mile from home. Telomeres do not, by themselves, establish age. Who told you that? Tell that numbskull they have no idea. Telomeres protect the DNA strand from rampant degradation, but they start to breakdown by repetitive generations. That's their purpose, to take the hits that would, otherwise, hit the functional genetic molecule's information. They are, therefore, affected by age, but in no way establish age limit. They ultimately succumb to aging at different times for different people, depending on their prudence of lifestyle and contraction of disease, the greater majority of which is also dictated, according to the CDC, more by imprudent lifestyle than by any clock or circumstance of infection.
#55
fauxlaw
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@Bones
Not for a second do I believe every detail of every O.T. event is annotated, such as Moses knowing, hundreds of years after Noah, what God and Noah discussed, what was taught to Noah, what skills Noah brought to the table, etc. So, no, there is no verse specifying that Noah collected DNA samples, or even what to call them in the first place. God, himself, may have some other reference name for it in any event. After all, the Genesis creation story, also written by Moses, is a Geocentric view, and it is well known, now, that Earth is not the center of the universe, nor even of our galaxy, let alone the solar system. So, do we question why God would have referenced such a centrism, or do we expect that God had more in mind than giving Moses an astronomy lesson as the major construct of the creation story? Come on, do you really expect that God only leads us by the nose, or do you think he is more interested that we do some thinking and resolving on our own, with his  help when needed?
#56
Reece101
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@fauxlaw
Actually, I have a pretty good idea. I met and spoke with Dr. James Watson when he lectured at UCLA in 1966, which was a mile from home.
I’m pretty sure you’ve told this story before on a different topic. Was it a year long lecture?

Telomeres do not, by themselves, establish age. Who told you that? Tell that numbskull they have no idea.
I said age limit. Be coherent. You’re not going to live 500+ years by having a healthy life style. 

Telomeres protect the DNA strand from rampant degradation, but they start to breakdown by repetitive generations. That's their purpose, to take the hits that would, otherwise, hit the functional genetic molecule's information. They are, therefore, affected by age, but in no way establish age limit.
Telomeres are limited to how many times they can divide cells which in turn determines how old one can get without the body seizing to function.

They ultimately succumb to aging at different times for different people, depending on their prudence of lifestyle and contraction of disease, the greater majority of which is also dictated, according to the CDC, more by imprudent lifestyle than by any clock or circumstance of infection.
Again, 500+ is out of the realm of possibility. Science is not on your side when you accept miracles. 
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#57
Bones
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@fauxlaw
Not for a second do I believe every detail of every O.T. event is annotated,
According toe history.com, the Old Testament is the first section of the Bible. Do you not believe in the bible? 

So, no, there is no verse specifying that Noah collected DNA samples, or even what to call them in the first place.
Then why make this baseless assumption, when there is no such reason to believe any conversation of this sort occurred? We can never know whether God discussed DNA sampling with Moses (admittedly, this is consistent with the rest of the bible, which never lays any brute, measurable facts), but what we do know for sure is that the bible states, "Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth."

Logically, why assert this DNA theory, when the bible clearly states, "seven pars of every kind of clean animal" which in Layman terms means 7 whole and live animals? Moreover, how can you make an assumption which has literally nothing backing it up? I could easily make some wild, baseless interpretation about some vague verse which could no correlation to what did or didn't happen. 

God, himself, may have some other reference name for it in any event.
He may, that is one of an infinite amount of possibilities, none of which are more plausible than their counterparts. What you are asserting has the same plausibility as me saying that there is a teapot floating in the universe. Sure, it is not a logically contradictory statement, but neither can you prove it. 

Come on, do you really expect that God only leads us by the nose, or do you think he is more interested that we do some thinking and resolving on our own, with his  help when needed?
To truthfully tell your followers that no, the earth is not the centre of the universe is hardly "leading by the nose", it is simply relaying accurate information. 
#58
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@Timid8967
What do they call Friday? Happy Day.   And Tuesday? Pension Day. 
Freya or Frigg's Day and Tyr's Day. 
#59
BrotherDThomas
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@fauxlaw


.
FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts of mine, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times, and goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor, says that the Bible is a FRAUD, and calls the Christian faith as DISHONEST, and still wants to be called a Christian,  and has run away from 18 posts to him in one thread alone,


YOUR BIBLE STUPID QUOTE AGAIN IN POST #65:  “That a miracle of DNA collection may have been in Noah's wheelhouse, his lack of full understanding not withstanding, the miracle is a possibility.”

Now, take your aluminum Bible stupid hat off for a brief moment, and understand what our God stated herewith: “Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah.” (Genesis 7:15-16)  With your lack of intellect and Bible understanding, can you even come close to understand that after Jesus stated the above, then your comical and ungodly ruse of Noah using DNA to save space upon the Ark is outright WRONG at your embarrassing expense again of calling Jesus a LIAR?!   

Now, do you want to discuss your comical ruse of trying so hard to accept the DNA notion instead of Godly truths as shown in the verse in question above? 

FAUXLAW, YOU ARE SO GOD BE DAMMED BIBLE STUPID!!!!!!!

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#60
BrotherDThomas
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@fauxlaw


.

FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts of mine, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times, and goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor, says that the Bible is a FRAUD, and calls the Christian faith as DISHONEST, and still wants to be called a Christian,  and has run away from 18 posts to him in one thread alone,

YOUR BEYOND STUPID BIBLE QUOTE IN BEING INSIDIOUSLY ANACRONISTIC IN PROPOSING THAT THE EARTH IS NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE: “After all, the Genesis creation story, also written by Moses, is a Geocentric view, and it is well known, now, that Earth is not the center of the universe, nor even of our galaxy, let alone the solar system.”

“Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.” (Joshua 10:12-13)

The Biblical evidence in support of a geocentric model is overwhelming within this passage alone, and other passages as well at your total embarrassment again where once again you call Jesus' inspired words as LIES!  Do you need me to have my neighbors 7 year old boy to come into this forum to explain the science of the verse in question above in showing that when the sun stands still, the earth and other planets revolve around it, GET IT BIBLE FOOL?

Now, do you want to biblically discuss that Jesus' inspired words state that the earth is in a geocentric system, or are you going to run away again at your embarrassing expense?


JESUS H. CHRIST, YOUR BIBLE STUPIDITY HAS NO BOUNDS!!!!

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