-->
@bronskibeat
But higher than cis females, you know Laurel still has her testicles or am I incorrect on this?
New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
Posts
Total:
79
-->
@RationalMadman
But higher than cis females, you know Laurel still has her testicles or am I incorrect on this?
The high risk for osteoporosis would indicate that the bone density is often low even for cis female standards. I don't know anything about Laurel's genitals.
-->
@bronskibeat
Yeah yeah, sure sure live in your fucking fantasy.
It's true that if they destroy a boy, a man during his puberty being too afraid to be called transphobic and pump him full of oestrogen and damaging sterilising substances, he can then fail to develop as a man.
That's a tragedy and I'm sick of being told that to be left-wing I need to support this shit to people too young to make informed decisions that permanently damage them.
-->
@RationalMadman
Yeah yeah, sure sure live in your fucking fantasy.It's true that if they destroy a boy, a man during his puberty being too afraid to be called transphobic and pump him full of oestrogen and damaging sterilising substances, he can then fail to develop as a man.That's a tragedy and I'm sick of being told that to be left-wing I need to support this shit to people too young to make informed decisions that permanently damage them.
I am open to having my mind changed, I just need to see...good arguments. Trust me, my initial reaction to all of this wasn't positive either, but I like to research issues before I form a real opinion. I have a feeling a lot of people in this thread made up their mind before the research process. That's never a good thing.
But like the other poster, it seems your issue is with transgenderism in and of itself, and that's a whole other conversation before we get to any sports talk or else we'll never be on the same page.
-->
@RationalMadman
I agree with RM on trans athletes.
-->
@bronskibeat
Do you have any resources I could look at that would explain the significance of the advantages of bone structure when paired with the effects of HRT?
Here’s a great Q&A with Alison Heather, Professor of Physiology at Otago University, who co-authored a report published in the BMJ Journal of Medical Ethics. I’ll give a brief summary here and you can read the rest.
What are the physiological differences between the male and female athlete?
Many, particularly in the musculoskeletal system and the cardiorespiratory system which underpin underpin athletic performance.
The musculoskeletal system is made up of our muscles and our bones. Males have larger and stronger bones than females. This is predetermined in utero because the male embryo produces testosterone, and emerges during puberty where boys grow taller and stronger. The stronger bones of males allows them to resist more trauma.
As well as length and strength, males can have different shaped bones to females. For example, the pelvis is wider in the females and narrower in males. This creates a different angle at the hip to which the leg bones attach, which changes the amount of force that can be generated by the knee when lifting, jumping, kicking or cycling. The narrower angle in a male allows for more force. The wider hips of females also means that the elbow joint angle is larger so the hands can swing without hit the hips.
Research shows that increased testosterone leads to increased muscle mass and associated power. However, males also have a higher percentage of type II muscle fibres, the explosive muscle type. This benefits males for such sports as powerlifting, jumping and sprinting. Females have more type I fibres, and coupled with increased fat mass, have a strong endurance capability for long-distance events (eg. ultramarathons).
The bone structure of the diaphragm differs between males and females. In females, this is placed higher to allow for pregnancy, and so females inherently have a smaller lung region.
In addition to this, early life testosterone exposure in males increases the number of alveoli (little sacs in the lungs that take oxygen from the air and put it in our blood to take to the tissues of our body) and so males have a greater capacity for oxygen uptake.
Oxygen is very important for active skeletal muscle. The more oxygen, the faster and longer one can go. So males can take up more oxygen into their blood because of male physiology that was determined around birth.
Oxygenated blood is pumped around the body to active skeletal muscles by the heart. The heart is bigger in average males to average females, and this stays true even allowing for males being bigger on average than females. So the male heart can literally pump more blood per beat and get that oxygenated blood to skeletal muscles faster and more efficiently.
This is the crux of the argument: “All of these male physiology components are regulated, at least in part, by the male sex hormone, testosterone. However, what is largely misunderstood or ignored by current debate, is it is not just current, circulating levels of testosterone that drive many of these components, but a life-long exposure to testosterone that started in utero, continued in early infancy, and then was cemented during the pubertal years.”
Trans women have had a lifetime of these innate advantages because of their chromosomes that puts them at an inherent physical advantage compared to cis-women.
-->
@RationalMadman
You mean your lack of any data, your lack answering the win percentage, and your lack of citing literally anything aside from outliers? How the hell am I "dodging" anything compared to you.
For me, the standards of sports, at this level of competition, should be determined by biological sex, not gender.
Though, I don't know what to do with intersex people.
To be honest, when you come to the end of everything, reasoning, logic, etc... humanity, on sports, is indeed sexist. Men are just built different. Same with Women. Comparing them directly would mean nothing in a field where they are separated.
I would suggest just having a single category of sports. Only the strongest. What, in this sport your best player is a woman? Get her in. Only compete in the best of the bests. Oh, some women are salty because they are "physically inferior"? Don't worry, you will make your life spark somewhere else, or train yourself so you are as good as them.
Better yet, create some sports focused on agility that would be better for women. In fact, all the sports resulting in females recording not-as-good scores is based on patriarchy creating the sports. One remedy would literally be creating more sports, especially those that could favor women, possibly.
Unless if it really isn't possible. In that case, just pretend I said nothing at all.
-->
@Intelligence_06
I've actually had that thought before, just getting rid of any distinctions of age, weight, or sex.
I don't think it'd fly though.
Never really thought beyond the initial 'idea, before discarding it, myself.
-->
@Lemming
True. Even such events are possible to find in large batches, it would be hard to change the current structure of today's Olympic organizations, etc.
However, if governmental officials deliberately get in the way of this getting passed, with such conditions being able of being met, then it is their fault.
-->
@Theweakeredge
You mean your lack of any data, your lack answering the win percentage, and your lack of citing literally anything aside from outliers? How the hell am I "dodging" anything compared to you.
I haven't dodged anything.
A mediocre male athlete who takes a lot of oestrogen won't generally beat peak female athletes.
A near-peak male athlete who was just about coping vs peak male athletes that undergoes the therapy, will consistently destroy and outperform peak cis females at the sport.
You can run around dodging me while saying I dodge you, I don't care. Do it once more and I block you permanently as I'm fed up of your arrogant bullcrap where you feel entitled to talk down to anyone who speaks to you.
Enjoy Laurel taking home golds and at worst silvers. I hope you cheer from the virtue signalling comfort of your home and feel fuzzy inside as females get robbed of their achievements by a male who is cheating.
Anyone with a slightly functioning brain can see how obvious it is.
-->
@coal
You know the sickest part of this?
It's telling women "you may have fought the patriarchy in one way but here's a loophole to remind you that males still can do what you do, better."
Utterly backwards bullshit masquerading as progressive.
-->
@Intelligence_06
I don't imagine there's 'many distinctions made is StarCraft Tournaments, or Chess Tournaments.
Though I may be mistaken.
Also somehow, the fictional, Strongest Under the Heavens Tournament, from Dragonball, pops into my mind.
-->
@Lemming
In Chess there actually is
Females need generally 200 less Elo to make the same ranks as men.
I don't want to be sexist about it so let's first admit there's far less women in the player pool to begin with and this was introduced to encourage women to try.
However, one cannot deny that there seems to be a 'male advantage' linked to brain structure or whatever, that makes the top few percent consistently male with only two exceptions (Judit Polgar and Hou Yifan).
There are of course more than two Female Grandmasters but their actual elo is only just above what male FIDE Masters are (level just below GM in US and has an equivalent rank for different nations).
-->
@Lemming
Exactly.
Wouldn't it be meaningful for us as a whole species compete in something in which someone announcing that they are trans wouldn't spark hot electric fire like the thread we are on now?
-->
@RationalMadman
If Men are more superior in strength and... brain structure, then what would Women be superior at?
-->
@bronskibeat
But like the other poster, it seems your issue is with transgenderism in and of itself, and that's a whole other conversation before we get to any sports talk or else we'll never be on the same page.
Wrong, don't lie about me.
I will call a trans or nonbinary person by their preferred pronouns always.
I actually personally know of a trans person IRL.
I am disgusted singularly by the sympathy card bding abused in thr case of allowing male-sex athletes to ruin and rob females of their female-only section and its protection to allow female athletes to achieve just as well as male athletes for the same effort.
I am further disgusted that teens are having their puberty ruined, absolutely destroyed, in order to respect the sudden frenzied cry of the adolescent that they want to never become a man or woman.
We don't let them vote (below 18) so we shouldn't let them remotely decide something like that until then. Some late bloomers only finish puberty at around 20-21 (yes, seriously, the clue is often in the facial structure and stuff) so I wouldn't want theirs interrupted.
Puberty is a natural thing all humans are biologically designed from benefitting having gone through at the end. A boy doesn't grow into a woman because you've ruined his body's development as a man.
-->
@Intelligence_06
Chess is only one form of mental exercise. At social strategy games like Big Brother, Survivor etc, females thwart males overall.
It's about the types of intelligence. At most shows requiring creativity (talent shows etc) there's an extremely even playing field as both sex's brains are deeply capable of creativity (if anything females have the edge due to more links between creative and rational parts of their minds)
-->
@RationalMadman
@Intelligence_06
Interesting about chess, aye, it wouldn't surprise me, if male and female brains are a bit different. Have preferences, maybe specialties.
Not saying I think one is better than the other in general, but in specific tasks, I think 'both sexes have something they in 'general, do better than the other.
Though it's not something I've looked into before.
Well, there 'would be 'some meaning in it.
Might narrow the 'scope of sports down a bit though.
Kind of nice watching women's basketball, or men's basketball sometimes.
Viewing a heavyweight boxing match, or a bantamweight boxing match. (Not implying women are bantamweight, because they aren't, just different groups)
Seeing the best of the younger generation in golf, or the best of the seniors.
I think people like seeing a fair fight, or at least what 'looks like a fair fight.
Since people like Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps exist. Not 'quite a fair fight.
Or they enjoy seeing the Harlem Globetrotters beat the Washington Generals.
But having many separations of classes, allows sports to flourish, people keep an interest in it, maybe.
-->
@Lemming
Idk what the rubiks cube meant to prove but your Link's title is false.
Spatial estimation/cognition is actually the single thing most superior in male vs female brains.
Its counterpart in females is social skills and general ability to ascertain emotion from expressed language. This may also be a huge reason why autism is much rarer in females than males (autism that isn't low-functioning is a social disability, not a cognitive one despite what many say).
-->
@RationalMadman
Rubiks cube, is more just a random joke.
The other link I included, just because it's something that popped up in Google, painting the differences as less one sex being strictly 'better than the other.
Differences between the sexes, isn't something I've looked deeply into.
-->
@Intelligence_06
Though, I don't know what to do with intersex people.
The sex that is most prevalent as identified by doctors on their birth certificate or just do the chromosomes
-->
@Intelligence_06
If Men are more superior in strength and... brain structure, then what would Women be superior at?
Sports that involve balance - like gymnastics
-->
@Lemming
I made a mistake, FIDE Master is 2 below GM, International Master is what is below it.
However, my statement wasn't incorrect. There are male IMs with higher or equal overall elo thab female GMs, this is not only due to the lower threshold for the female GMs but also due to there being more than Elo that separates (you need to win an amount of official international tournaments to break through from FIDE Master to IM and then to GM
-->
@ILikePie5
Hey, thank ya for the read!
Here’s a great Q&A with Alison Heather, Professor of Physiology at Otago University, who co-authored a report published in the BMJ Journal of Medical Ethics. I’ll give a brief summary here and you can read the rest.What are the physiological differences between the male and female athlete?Many, particularly in the musculoskeletal system and the cardiorespiratory system which underpin underpin athletic performance.The musculoskeletal system is made up of our muscles and our bones. Males have larger and stronger bones than females. This is predetermined in utero because the male embryo produces testosterone, and emerges during puberty where boys grow taller and stronger. The stronger bones of males allows them to resist more trauma.As well as length and strength, males can have different shaped bones to females. For example, the pelvis is wider in the females and narrower in males. This creates a different angle at the hip to which the leg bones attach, which changes the amount of force that can be generated by the knee when lifting, jumping, kicking or cycling. The narrower angle in a male allows for more force. The wider hips of females also means that the elbow joint angle is larger so the hands can swing without hit the hips.Research shows that increased testosterone leads to increased muscle mass and associated power. However, males also have a higher percentage of type II muscle fibres, the explosive muscle type. This benefits males for such sports as powerlifting, jumping and sprinting. Females have more type I fibres, and coupled with increased fat mass, have a strong endurance capability for long-distance events (eg. ultramarathons).The bone structure of the diaphragm differs between males and females. In females, this is placed higher to allow for pregnancy, and so females inherently have a smaller lung region.In addition to this, early life testosterone exposure in males increases the number of alveoli (little sacs in the lungs that take oxygen from the air and put it in our blood to take to the tissues of our body) and so males have a greater capacity for oxygen uptake.Oxygen is very important for active skeletal muscle. The more oxygen, the faster and longer one can go. So males can take up more oxygen into their blood because of male physiology that was determined around birth.Oxygenated blood is pumped around the body to active skeletal muscles by the heart. The heart is bigger in average males to average females, and this stays true even allowing for males being bigger on average than females. So the male heart can literally pump more blood per beat and get that oxygenated blood to skeletal muscles faster and more efficiently.This is the crux of the argument: “All of these male physiology components are regulated, at least in part, by the male sex hormone, testosterone. However, what is largely misunderstood or ignored by current debate, is it is not just current, circulating levels of testosterone that drive many of these components, but a life-long exposure to testosterone that started in utero, continued in early infancy, and then was cemented during the pubertal years.”Trans women have had a lifetime of these innate advantages because of their chromosomes that puts them at an inherent physical advantage compared to cis-women.
So just to break this down, the areas of advantage that HRT may have no effect are:
- Pelvis size
- Lung capacity
- Size of heart
I left out bone density/muscle because the studies I've read/shared here addressed the break down of bone mass and muscle atrophy under HRT, and also how bone density tends to vary more across race than gender.
But the other three, I'll accept. I guess where I'm headed is, do you think there is a compromise somewhere? Or instead of banning trans-women outright it could be a case by case basis based on the individual? The significance of those inherent advantages will vary depending on the sport, and the other advantages the trans player in question lacks. Say there is a trans-woman basketball player who is skilled and she has those three advantages listed above. But she's short. She's 5'6. The average WNBA player is 6'0. Does that handicap create a balance for her that makes her a fair teammate/opponent? I would say that it could. And that's just one example, there's many different scenarios where a balance can be found.
-->
@bronskibeat
Your compromise sounds like match fixing. Make what you like of that, but it's silly.
I reckon if the trans woman is hot and might be fun to watch play, let them play.
With strict tucking rules.
-->
@RationalMadman
Wrong, don't lie about me.I will call a trans or nonbinary person by their preferred pronouns always.I actually personally know of a trans person IRL.
I mean, I didn't say you were a jerk. I'm sure you're very respectful. My assumption (not a lie, just my personal read) about you is that conversations around transgender people seems to trigger anxiety more than approval. You just changed the subject to a conversation about trans people in sports, to another unrelated issue with trans people (when is the appropriate age to start transitioning). That's not really a rational train of thought I'm seeing here. You're jumping from one anxiety about trans people to another anxiety about trans people with appropriately addressing any arguments.
I am disgusted singularly by the sympathy card bding abused in thr case of allowing male-sex athletes to ruin and rob females of their female-only section and its protection to allow female athletes to achieve just as well as male athletes for the same effort.
You haven't presented any evidence for trans-women who are on HRT show significant advantages. You just keeping going back to the point that men are stronger than women, no one is contesting that. It just doesn't seem like you actually know much about what HRT does.
I am further disgusted that teens are having their puberty ruined, absolutely destroyed, in order to respect the sudden frenzied cry of the adolescent that they want to never become a man or woman.We don't let them vote (below 18) so we shouldn't let them remotely decide something like that until then. Some late bloomers only finish puberty at around 20-21 (yes, seriously, the clue is often in the facial structure and stuff) so I wouldn't want theirs interrupted.Puberty is a natural thing all humans are biologically designed from benefitting having gone through at the end. A boy doesn't grow into a woman because you've ruined his body's development as a man.
Right. This is a separate discussion so I'll try to stay on topic. But I think that most kids who are questioning their gender, especially nowadays, are going to encounter more non-transitioning non-binary people than medically transitioned binary trans people (in real life and the interwebz). I don't think this scary influence of pro-trans politics is as influential as you think it is.
Any sort of medical intervention for trans kids is rare and is only reserved for kids who are showing extreme dysphoria (which is not the same as simply questioning your gender or not fitting into gender stereotypes).
I won't go further into it than that. But maybe I'll start another topic on that conversation.
-->
@badger
Your compromise sounds like match fixing. Make what you like of that, but it's silly.
You're going to have to elaborate.
"In organized sports, match fixing occurs as a match is played to a completely or partially pre-determined result, violating the rules of the game and often the law. The most common reason is to obtain a payoff from gamblers, but teams may also intentionally perform poorly to gain a future advantage, such as a better draft pick[A] or, on paper, a less eminent opponent in a play-off.[B] A player might also play poorly to rig a handicap system."
In my example, the player isn't pretending to play poorly. It's that the player in question's mix of physical advantages and disadvantages does not put them at an overall advantage against teammate or opponents.