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@3RU7AL
None of which matter in a court of law. Abstractions are the first and last basis for having specific cases thrown out. You don't prove A case in a court. You prove THE case.
Freedom of Speech
Posts
Total:
251
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@Double_R
The metric is when the government retaliates against any individual or entity who has free speech as a direct result of their use of it.
That bar is set extremely high if you look at cases won in court for retaliation vs the number thrown out.
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@bmdrocks21
It doesn’t really seem like a big government action to get rid of a preferential rule implemented by said government.By that definition, wouldn’t closing tax loopholes also be an act of big government?
If the government is getting rid of rule it itself implemented, that by itself would result in a smaller government. But the act of making that change as a result of the government’s disapproval of the entity in question’s free speech means that the government is now the arbiter of what is allowed to be said within the free market. That leaves us with a far bigger government than we started with.
And BTW, the change we’re talking about is the government telling Disney “you can’t govern your own property anymore, we’re going to do it”. So how you start this off with the notion that government was made smaller by this is beyond me.
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@Double_R
If the government is getting rid of rule it itself implemented, that by itself would result in a smaller government.
If the abolishing a rule (which isn't an accurate term since tax loopholes are specific exceptions to an existing tax rule) allows for the confiscation of more funds, that makes government larger in scope and power. What kind of delusion would make you think more taxes means a smaller government?
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@3RU7AL
isn't the "conservative motto" basically "stay off my lawn" ?
Well, either I'm not conservative and it is, or I am conservative and that is a libertarian stance. Been trying to figure that one out.
But I'm confused about why you bring up local taxes and explaining that those pay for fire department. Are you suggesting that Republicans want a fee-based system for public services?
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@Greyparrot
That bar is set extremely high if you look at cases won in court for retaliation vs the number thrown out.
It is a high bar. Thankfully in this case we know why Dessantis did this because he told us so. In an email sent to donors Desantis stated:
“Disney and other woke corporations won’t get away with peddling their unchecked pressure campaigns any longer. If we want to keep the Democrat machine and their corporate lapdogs accountable, we have to stand together now”
And then when he signed the law he said:
“You’re a corporation based in Burbank, California, and you’re gonna marshal your economic might to attack the parents of my state, we view that as a provocation, and we’re going to fight back against that.”
This couldn’t be any more obvious, he wasn’t trying to hide it.
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@Greyparrot
If the abolishing a rule (which isn't an accurate term since tax loopholes are specific exceptions to an existing tax rule) allows for the confiscation of more funds, that makes government larger in scope and power. What kind of delusion would make you think more taxes means a smaller government?
Read what I actually wrote and try again.
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@Double_R
This couldn’t be any more obvious, he wasn’t trying to hide it.
Neither do the Democrats when they say they will tax the rich millions of times every campaign cycle.
And yet, where are the retaliation lawsuits of the rich vs the government? Nonexistent largely.
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@bmdrocks21
But I'm confused about why you bring up local taxes and explaining that those pay for fire department. Are you suggesting that Republicans want a fee-based system for public services?
i'm suggesting that iff a corporation, or a land owner has the wherewithal to provide the services we normally associate with a local government for themselves, on their own land, and that land is the size of a typical town or city, then don't you think it makes perfect sense to allow the land owner to opt-out of "government services" ?
also, isn't public funding for roads "socialism" ?
also, isn't public funding for schools "socialism" ?
also, isn't public funding for police and fire departments "socialism" ?
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@bmdrocks21
Well, either I'm not conservative and it is, or I am conservative and that is a libertarian stance. Been trying to figure that one out.
you're right
it's probably more specifically "libertarian"
but "conservatives" loooooove to prattle on about "smallergovernmentsmallergovernmentsmallergovernment"
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@Double_R
And BTW, the change we’re talking about is the government telling Disney “you can’t govern your own property anymore, we’re going to do it”. So how you start this off with the notion that government was made smaller by this is beyond me.
And how you twisted yourself through hundreds of hoops to believe that taking away the right of a corporation to essentially be a local government is itself 'big government' is beyond me.
If the government is getting rid of rule it itself implemented, that by itself would result in a smaller government. But the act of making that change as a result of the government’s disapproval of the entity in question’s free speech means that the government is now the arbiter of what is allowed to be said within the free market. That leaves us with a far bigger government than we started with.
Disney cut off political contributions in March. Can the Florida government not ever adversely impact a corporation that disagrees with it? Are they limited to only creating policies that hurt their vocal supporters?
The fact is, this special tax exemption was ridiculous. The Florida government did a good thing by removing a special exemption from laws that should have never existed.
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@Double_R
So you don’t believe in the constitution? That’s quite a stunning admission.
You clearly did not read what I said. Take a look again.
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@3RU7AL
but "conservatives" loooooove to prattle on about "smallergovernmentsmallergovernmentsmallergovernment"
They do, I'll admit. It's rather irksome and prevents them from ever doing anything strategic.
also, isn't public funding for roads "socialism" ?also, isn't public funding for schools "socialism" ?also, isn't public funding for police and fire departments "socialism" ?
Nah, I don't think there is a black and white point at which something becomes socialist. I don't believe that any government intervention is socialist, otherwise I'd be a socialist. Considering that I am a nationalist, that would make quite the combo lol
i'm suggesting that iff a corporation, or a land owner has the wherewithal to provide the services we normally associate with a local government for themselves, on their own land, and that land is the size of a typical town or city, then don't you think it makes perfect sense to allow the land owner to opt-out of "government services" ?
I think that decision is up to the state to figure out. They are allowed to still have their own water lines and crews that put out fires. They aren't prohibited from doing that, but they are just no longer treated like a municipality with "self-tax status"
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@Greyparrot
I'm talking about the legal argument.
As a dispenser of law, a government can dictate the parameters by any arbitrary method, affecting the legal argument. Did Governor DeSantis "make law which disrespected Disney's establishment of religion, or prohibited their free
exercise thereof; or abridged Disney's freedom of speech, or of the press;
or the right of Disney's people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the
Government for a redress of grievances"? Yes. Particularly the "abridgement of free speech" in imposing a penalty (taxation) for political dissent.
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@Athias
The Democrats threaten to tax the rich millions of times every campaign cycle. (and sometimes they do it)
And yet, where are the retaliation lawsuits of the rich vs the government? Nonexistent largely.
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@Greyparrot
Neither do the Democrats when they say they will tax the rich millions of times every campaign cycle.And yet, where are the retaliation lawsuits of the rich vs the government? Nonexistent largely.
Are you even being serious or just trolling? There is no way you do not understand what retaliation is by this point.
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@Double_R
And I also refuse to believe you do not understand that all tax exemptions are rewards and all removals of tax exemptions are retaliations.
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@ILikePie5
So you don’t believe in the constitution? That’s quite a stunning admission.You clearly did not read what I said. Take a look again.
Ok…
Do I agree with DeSantis? Yes. Do I think it’s constitutional? No.
If you agree with what Desantis did while admitting it is unconstitutional, then you agree with someone violating the constitution. That by definition means you do not believe in the constitution.
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@Athias
I'm finding it difficult to be impartial about that witch coven known as Disney and all its conglomerates--in this case, the Disney parks in the Orlando area. DeSantis's action were clearly retaliation against Disney's public support for LGBTQ issues being taught in grade school (not surprising since Disney Media including "ABC" has been pushing LGBTQ imagery for years.) With that said, should a company be able to regulate itself on its own property and make public statements and even withdraw support without being robbed? Yes. So did Governor DeSantis attack Disney's free speech? Yes, he did.
Disney probably has grounds for a first amendment lawsuit on their hands. I think DeSantis might already suspect this, or even desires this (he said the quiet parts out loud, after all), in which case “the process IS the punishment.”
That the OP attempts to frame the whole 1A violation controversy as unique to DeSantis’ actions should be an insult to everyone’s intelligence in this forum. IMO, DeSantis is just demonstrating that two can play this game…
That the OP attempts to frame the whole 1A violation controversy as unique to DeSantis’ actions should be an insult to everyone’s intelligence in this forum. IMO, DeSantis is just demonstrating that two can play this game…
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@Greyparrot
And I also refuse to believe you do not understand that all tax exemptions are rewards and all removals of tax exemptions are retaliations.
My god dude, you cannot be serious.
Retaliation: to hurt someone or do something harmful to someone because they have done or said something harmful to you
Do you understand what the word because means and how it relates to this example where as it does not relate to any other accepted practice?
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@cristo71
That the OP attempts to frame the whole 1A violation controversy as unique to DeSantis’ actions should be an insult to everyone’s intelligence in this forum. IMO, DeSantis is just demonstrating that two can play this game…
Coal's meme on this is 100% accurate.
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@Double_R
The SALT exemptions are particularly funny example because it was Trump who removed the SALT deductions as a retaliation against all the Rich Democrats in your state of New York.
Where are all the lawsuits of the Rich Democrats against Trump? Nonexistant largely.
Biden also failed to reinstate the exemptions lulzsauce.
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@Greyparrot
I’m not talking about the taxation aspect, as I can see the distinction on that aspect. Rather, I am talking about the double standards on using the levers of government to penalize free speech. Chick Fil A being uninvited to open business at certain airports is just one example.
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@cristo71
That the OP attempts to frame the whole 1A violation controversy as unique to DeSantis’ actions should be an insult to everyone’s intelligence in this forum. IMO, DeSantis is just demonstrating that two can play this game…
Except, it's not "two can play this game..." As I understand it, even though Disney threatened to withdraw political and financial support, DeSantis, at least at its face, is an extension of Florida's government. Whatever game Disney was playing, they still operated within their capacity. DeSantis retaliated and reneged on an arrangement Disney has had with the State of Florida since before he was born. And if one were to believe all the jargon and hoopla about government, then DeSantis would be in gross violation of his duty, especially in matters where constituents dissent.
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@cristo71
Oh yeah. I was just trying to keep the convo simple by showing how every party abuses the tax code to punish their political enemies. Of course the tax code is not the only way a government can retaliate against political opposition. (such as shutting down the XL pipeline)
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@Greyparrot
The Democrats threaten to tax the rich millions of times every campaign cycle. (and sometimes they do it)
And that's just as wrong.
And yet, where are the retaliation lawsuits of the rich vs the government? Nonexistent largely.
It's more inexpensive to either not retaliate, just move, or headquarter elsewhere. It's part of the reason, California, for example, is subject to frequent flights from the rich, leaving the tax burden to those whom the Democrats of their state frequently claim they're serving.
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@Athias
I don’t mean *only* Disney here but Democrats who seek to use the levers of government to check and penalize speech. DeSantis appears to be demonstrating that he is willing and able to play these political tricks as well if that is how they want to play…
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@Greyparrot
The Democrats threaten to tax the rich millions of times every campaign cycle. (and sometimes they do it)And yet, where are the retaliation lawsuits of the rich vs the government? Nonexistent largely.
You equate being rich to expression and taxation as retaliation for this 'speech'.
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@Double_R
If you agree with what Desantis did while admitting it is unconstitutional, then you agree with someone violating the constitution. That by definition means you do not believe in the constitution.
The amount of mental gymnastics you’re going through to paint me as an anti-constitutionalist is astonishing. My two beliefs are and can be mutually exclusive.
Do I agree with abortion? No. Is abortion constitutional at the moment? Yes.
Just cause I don’t agree with abortion doesn’t mean I don’t believe in the constitution lol. And to even suggest that is disingenuous.
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@Athias
The point here is hypocrisy. Rules for thee but not for me. When Democrats tell everyone to not buy Goya products because they support Trump, all is well. But when DeSantis calls out Disney for their shenanigans, there’s an uproar.